Updated phylogenetic tree of E-V13

[PaschalisB]

You probably mean of a subclade of E-V13 with Poles, Russians, Serbs, Bulgarians etc. on it for a clear Slavic marker?
I wasn't thinking about that and we probably won't find many such branches because simply E-V13 was not an important marker in the proto-Slavs.
When I say migration with the Slavs, I mean a migration with them but not necessarily a Slavic marker.
For example, the migrations in the early Medieval were a big scale migrations, a turbulence that was felt all over the continent and one migration could have ignited many different ones. It was like a domino effect.

You expressed what I meant much better than me, that's exactly what I meant.

[PaschalisB]

CTS9320 is spread throughout Europe, though it is more concentrated in the Balkans and Central Europe. The TMRCA is 3000 ybp.
Here are its major subclades:
-Z16988 with a TMRCA 3000 ybp. The clade and its subclades can be found throughout Europe and I believe it could have originated within the Hallstat Culture. Its subclades could have then be spread westward and southward alongside R1b clades.
-Z17107 also has a TMRCA 3000 ybp. It has some pretty recent subclades in Hungary and the Balkans and it is compatible with a migration during the Middle Ages into the Balkans (Early Slavs? Another group?)
-Z17264 has a TMRCA 2500 ybp and it can be found in Greece, Italy, Turkey and the Balkans. There is also a recent subclade found in Norway. This one could be a greek subclade, spreading with the Ancient Greeks. (Maybe it arrived in Greece with the Dorians?)
-Z25461 with a TMRCA 2800 ybp. This subclade can be found in Italy and Central and Western Europe. It could also have spread with the Celts.
-Y20805 has a TMRCA 2700 ybp. It can be found in the Balkans and also in Poland, Ukraine and Sweden. I believe that this is a subclade that moved eastward from Central Europe and the spread westward again with the Goths or Slavs.
-Y84585 with a TMRCA 1150 ybp. This clade is found in the Balkans, Poland and Germany. I believe that the Slavs absorbed it and then spread it.


Where could CTS9320 have originated? Could it have originated in Central Europe and then travel throughout Europe at first with the Celts and then with the Goths and Early Slavs? Or could it have originated in the Balkans and then spread in different stages throughout Europe? What is for certain is that it is a very interesting haplogroup and I would like to learn more about it.

[Kelmendasi]

You probably mean of a subclade of E-V13 with Poles, Russians, Serbs, Bulgarians etc. on it for a clear Slavic marker?
I wasn't thinking about that and we probably won't find many such branches because simply E-V13 was not an important marker in the proto-Slavs.
When I say migration with the Slavs, I mean a migration with them but not necessarily a Slavic marker.
For example, the migrations in the early Medieval were a big scale migrations, a turbulence that was felt all over the continent and one migration could have ignited many different ones. It was like a domino effect.
So, a tribe of Dacians, Illyrians etc. assimilated into Slavs but not necessarily assimilated and arriving with the Slavs in Greece and the Southern Balkans is not out of place.
And this is not just for clades under CTS9320 but other ones as well.
Look at this one for example: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A18833/
It has three samples, Bosniak at the top of the tree and a Serb and a Bulgarian underneath.
It has a perfect timing with a TMRCA of 1400 ybp.
You want necessarily find northern Slavs in this branch but to me it looks like a clear indication of a migration in that turbulent period into present day Bosnia, Serbia and Bulgaria.
The Italian guy with a star (*) on a parallel branch is from Lodi in Northern Italy and it may look like this branch has to do with the Celts or the Illyrians living close to Italy!

Yfull doesn't always give the best representation. E-Z19851 for example is also carried by Bulgarians, Greeks, Albanians/Arbereshe and Vlachs. By the looks of it, it's very possible that most of its subclades are of Vlach origin. Evidence indicates that A18833 arrived in those regions from further south, iirc it is also carried by the Bjelica clan of Montenegro.

[Kelmendasi]

So many bottlenecks with a TMRCA in early Medieval? Strange coincidence...

The native Balkan population (excluding Greeks), Albanians and Vlachs, did face population bottlenecks. That much is a fact. Based on evidence it is pretty clear that this bottleneck happened some time during the Slavic migrations. Don't see how this is a "strange coincidence", it's kinda expected. With this logic you could argue that clearly Albanian clades such as J-PH1751 and R-Z2705 are a result of Slavic migration, something which hold no water.

[Kelmendasi]

-Y84585 with a TMRCA 1150 ybp. This clade is found in the Balkans, Poland and Germany. I believe that the Slavs absorbed it and then spread it.


Where could CTS9320 have originated? Could it have originated in Central Europe and then travel throughout Europe at first with the Celts and then with the Goths and Early Slavs? Or could it have originated in the Balkans and then spread in different stages throughout Europe? What is for certain is that it is a very interesting haplogroup and I would like to learn more about it.

The E-Z17107 in Albanians mainly falls under Z38456 and seems to have been present in the Balkans since the Iron Age, though looking at TMRCA it went through a bottleneck during the Medieval.

The TMRCA of 1,150ybp for E-Y84585 is based on 3 Albanian samples (The "Montenegrin" sample is actually an Albanian from Tirana), the Pole and German aren't accounted for so it's likely that the TMRCA will increase.

By the looks of it, origin in Central Europe is less likely than an origin in the Balkans. I believe that it originated somewhere around the Central or Western Balkans and then moved north into Central Europe, from where many clades expanded.

[PaschalisB]

The E-Z17107 in Albanians mainly falls under Z38456 and seems to have been present in the Balkans since the Iron Age, though looking at TMRCA it went through a bottleneck during the Medieval.

The TMRCA of 1,150ybp for E-Y84585 is based on 3 Albanian samples (The "Montenegrin" sample is actually an Albanian from Tirana), the Pole and German aren't accounted for so it's likely that the TMRCA will increase.

By the looks of it, origin in Central Europe is less likely than an origin in the Balkans. I believe that it originated somewhere around the Central or Western Balkans and then moved north into Central Europe, from where many clades expanded.

Thanks for all this information. Do you have any additional information on Y20805?

[Kelmendasi]

Thanks for all this information. Do you have any additional information on Y20805?

E-Y20805 seems to be a downstream of BY4526 judging by the FTDNA Y-Tree, on there it's known as E-BY4523. On FTDNA there seems to be a Pole, Belorussian and Ukrainian who form their own clade under BY4526, not sure if they are basal BY4526 or just form a new cluster. There is also a Swede who seems to be negative for other BY4526 clades.

The Bulgarian sample is E-Y20805. The downstream of Y20805, BY4543, is found in France. BY4543 has downstreams in Germany (BY34308) and Sweden (BY4540). Based on the info given, the German samples may originally be from areas around the Hunsruck mountain range in the Rhineland, though the map seems to place one of them in Northern Serbia (Backo Dobro Polje, Vojvodina). The Swedes may be from SW Sweden (Holo area).

Overall the TMRCA of BY4526 should be ~3,000ybp considering that Y20805 has a TMRCA of ~2,700ybp.

[DRITINI]

I am also positive for Y20805 ( I am Albanian from Kosovo). I also know another Albanian tested positive for that. And there is one Bosnian guy with origin from Rozhaje (Montenegro -Kosovo bordering region) who was tested positive for this.

[Kelmendasi]

I am also positive for Y20805 ( I am Albanian from Kosovo). I also know another Albanian tested positive for that. And there is one Bosnian guy with origin from Rozhaje (Montenegro -Kosovo bordering region) who was tested positive for this.

I wasn't aware of any Albanians that are positive for Y20805, have you joined the Albanian Bloodlines Project? I am also curious as to where the other Albanian guy is from and if you have any tribal affiliation. Bosniaks from Rozaje are primarily of Albanian origin (Kelmendi and Kuci clans).

[DRITINI]

Hey Kelmendasi,
Yes we both ( the guy tested and me ) claim origin from Gashi tribe . The Bosnian guy is originally Kuçi ( with high probability) , as I found data in a book talking about his surname as part of the slavicized Kuçi. But our distance is big , with the other Gashi I have around 200 or more years.

[DRITINI]

Kerko te projekti „Gjenetika Shqiptare“ Z37530. Une jam pozitiv per BY4524, ndersa ish edhe njo nga Gjirokastra vetem Z37530

[Nik]

As for the Iranic influence, the Bulgarians have even more...
Many words in the Bulgarian language show Iranic connection and strangely enough those words are not present in the rest of the Slavic languages.
Some of the words are 'ubav'(beautiful); 'kuche'(dog); 'krpa'(flannel); 'karpa'(rock) etc...

Moreover, the grammar of the Bulgarian language is totally alien for the other Slavic languages...

Kuchi is also dog in Albanian, as is karpa (rock).

As for CTS9320, a Central European/North Balkan origin is likely according to a very detailed analysis done by a member here who's name I forgot. Some branches went south becoming Illyro-Thracian (eventually also Greek), while some other branches stayed or moved West and contributed to the populations they're found today (Celts, Germans, Slavs, etc.).

I've increasingly noticed a common route of early migrations as jumping from the Carpathian Mountains to the Alps with different directions in the middle somewhere in Pannonia (Hungary), then from the Alps to Northern Spain, with another dispersion.

[Aspar]

Kuchi is also dog in Albanian, as is karpa (rock).

As for CTS9320, a Central European/North Balkan origin is likely according to a very detailed analysis done by a member here who's name I forgot. Some branches went south becoming Illyro-Thracian (eventually also Greek), while some other branches stayed or moved West and contributed to the populations they're found today (Celts, Germans, Slavs, etc.).

I've increasingly noticed a common route of early migrations as jumping from the Carpathian Mountains to the Alps with different directions in the middle somewhere in Pannonia (Hungary), then from the Alps to Northern Spain, with another dispersion.

Well yeah. there are similarities with the Albanian language as well especially when it comes to the grammar.
Check this out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_sprachbund

As for CTS9320, it's indeed from a Central European origin...
I've been discussing about it since a while that it looks like a Central European subclade...
Too bad that the project of 'CTS9320' at FTDNA is of closed character and the results are not publicly displayed.
What is the point than if you don't display the markers so others can compare and find closer or more distant relatives??
But looking at 'E-M35' project's results and also at YFULL, I can see that the clades parallel with CTS9320 and those ancestral to it like E-Z5016, E-Z5016*, E-Y138701, E-Y3762, are found in England, Portugal, Germany and Italy...
It seems like a clear Central European origin and sometime in the MBA it looks like a migration had taken place from Central Europe to the Carpathians involving men of CTS9320 affiliation and also E-CTS6377 which is ancestral to CTS9320...I say this because of one Bulgarian CTS6377* guy negative to CTS9320.
Of course, this is an observation from a point of view of the available results displayed in the public projects and YFULL and this could not be a definitive conclusion as with more tested people we can get a different picture.
However as of now, those are my two cents...

Other thing I want to put in light is that it looks like the man or the progenitor of all modern CTS9320, as well as his ancestors, was a member of a tribe or people who lived a mountainous and nomadic life.
The Central European Alps could have been a perfect place for ancient men of CTS9320 and clades ancestral to it to hide and take shelter from the plains where the danger was much higher.
Later on, some of these mountaineers found a shelter in the Carpathians, but also in the Dinaric Alps and even further to the South in the Central Balkan mountains and Greece!
This is the period of separation of the clades of Western Balkan origin mainly present in the Albanians and those of Eastern Balkan origin, mainly present in the Bulgarians!
Therefore, I think that CTS9320 and some ancestral subclades to it, are truly people connected to the mountains who used the mountains to thrive and hide and grow in population.
A very good adaptation which probably saved many subclades under E-V13 from destruction and allowed it to grow in population.

To connect a more proximate group of people in time not that distant as the BA era, in the works of the ancient authors like Strabo, the Thracians were clearly called a "mountainous people" or "mountaineers".
I am not so sure about the Illyrians because they were regarded as good sailors and sea-faring people clearly contradicting the mountainous lifestyle of CTS9320 and other clades under E-V13, however, probably not all the tribes regarded or connected to those ancient Illyrians had the same lifestyle and probably those who lived more inland had not!
As for the Greeks, CTS9320 and most of the clades under E-V13 are total contradiction of the Greek lifestyle and seafaring nature, as the people who lived in the mountains were regarded as Barbarians by the Greeks and had Barbarian lifestyle.
This comes to a great disappointment of many E-V13 enthusiasts who proclaimed a Greek origin of E-V13 and many of it's subclades, which as the time pass, we will see that it will become more and more non-Greek!

[DRITINI]

I myself of course wish that E-V13 is Illyrian as we are taught so . If that is wrong , it is like that and we have to accept that. But the diversity and amount of E-V13 is considerably high in Albanians (even due to bottleneck). Moreover I think that using genetics as key for attributing certain genes to certain populations is wrong . We have archeology to take into account and especially culture as well . From a historical point of view, highest probability is that Albanians descend largely from Illyrians. The Centum-Satem theory used for language classification does not hold any more, so it can not be said that Albanian is not related to Illyrian. Another point is: who were the Illyrians, the Thracians, etc? Probably they never felt way too close to each other as it is documented they had war within these „population“ with each other . If it is kept on speculating If Albanians fell from the sky we are just bullshiting.
If you talk about Illyrians as sailors : please go to The north of Albania/ south of Montenegro. You are as close to the mountains as to the sea. Moreover , it is proven that Romans used arguments like this ( and the comment on the Illyrians comes from Romans) to conquer other countries. Here I am referring to the Helvetian people. Romans tried to find a reason why to occupy other areas, and often they tried to let it seem as if they did not have another chance . In the case of Illyrians it is the bad Illyrians robbing their ships at sea. See what I mean ? Even history has to be seen critical in that sense, as it was polarizing.l

[Nik]

Well yeah. there are similarities with the Albanian language as well especially when it comes to the grammar.
Check this out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_sprachbund

Indeed, nothing Iranic about those words.

As for CTS9320, it's indeed from a Central European origin...
I've been discussing about it since a while that it looks like a Central European subclade...
Too bad that the project of 'CTS9320' at FTDNA is of closed character and the results are not publicly displayed.
What is the point than if you don't display the markers so others can compare and find closer or more distant relatives??
But looking at 'E-M35' project's results and also at YFULL, I can see that the clades parallel with CTS9320 and those ancestral to it like E-Z5016, E-Z5016*, E-Y138701, E-Y3762, are found in England, Portugal, Germany and Italy...
It seems like a clear Central European origin and sometime in the MBA it looks like a migration had taken place from Central Europe to the Carpathians involving men of CTS9320 affiliation and also E-CTS6377 which is ancestral to CTS9320...I say this because of one Bulgarian CTS6377* guy negative to CTS9320.
Of course, this is an observation from a point of view of the available results displayed in the public projects and YFULL and this could not be a definitive conclusion as with more tested people we can get a different picture.
However as of now, those are my two cents...

As long as your not claiming a post Iron Age or simply post Illyrian origin, then we agree. Nothing new about CTS9320.

To connect a more proximate group of people in time not that distant as the BA era, in the works of the ancient authors like Strabo, the Thracians were clearly called a "mountainous people" or "mountaineers".
I am not so sure about the Illyrians because they were regarded as good sailors and sea-faring people clearly contradicting the mountainous lifestyle of CTS9320 and other clades under E-V13, however, probably not all the tribes regarded or connected to those ancient Illyrians had the same lifestyle and probably those who lived more inland had not!
As for the Greeks, CTS9320 and most of the clades under E-V13 are total contradiction of the Greek lifestyle and seafaring nature, as the people who lived in the mountains were regarded as Barbarians by the Greeks and had Barbarian lifestyle.
This comes to a great disappointment of many E-V13 enthusiasts who proclaimed a Greek origin of E-V13 and many of it's subclades, which as the time pass, we will see that it will become more and more non-Greek!

Actually, it's the Illyrians who were way more adapted to the mountain life than the Thracians. Thracians had probably a 50/50 split between mountain and lowland dwellers, and in case you weren't aware many of those later considered highland Thracian tribes had a more Western origin and were once Illyrian (proto-Illyrian) and were later assimilated into the local Thracian population, but their culture and way of life remained more similar to the Illyrians than their Thracian lowland dwellers who were mostly of the Mediterranean type like the Greeks, while the mountain ones were Dinaric or Dinaric-Med. So clearly a hybrid population.

[Nik]

I myself of course wish that E-V13 is Illyrian as we are taught so . If that is wrong , it is like that and we have to accept that. But the diversity and amount of E-V13 is considerably high in Albanians (even due to bottleneck). Moreover I think that using genetics as key for attributing certain genes to certain populations is wrong . We have archeology to take into account and especially culture as well . From a historical point of view, highest probability is that Albanians descend largely from Illyrians. The Centum-Satem theory used for language classification does not hold any more, so it can not be said that Albanian is not related to Illyrian. Another point is: who were the Illyrians, the Thracians, etc? Probably they never felt way too close to each other as it is documented they had war within these „population“ with each other . If it is kept on speculating If Albanians fell from the sky we are just bullshiting.
If you talk about Illyrians as sailors : please go to The north of Albania/ south of Montenegro. You are as close to the mountains as to the sea. Moreover , it is proven that Romans used arguments like this ( and the comment on the Illyrians comes from Romans) to conquer other countries. Here I am referring to the Helvetian people. Romans tried to find a reason why to occupy other areas, and often they tried to let it seem as if they did not have another chance . In the case of Illyrians it is the bad Illyrians robbing their ships at sea. See what I mean ? Even history has to be seen critical in that sense, as it was polarizing.l

Who cares if it's Illyrian or Thracian. Illyrians and Thracians living next to each other in Central Balkans were completely identical. The only thing separating them were names (who are mostly mixed) and maybe language. We have evidence that from the same settlements u have families with both Illyrian and Thracian names.

So you being from Kosovo and of Thracian origin doesn't make you less Dardanian, since they were also an Illyro-Thracian mix to begin with.

[DRITINI]

Well we should care . You say language , language is quite a factor on which nowadays nations base on partially.
Being from Kosovo doesn’t necessarily mean to be Thracian . Vast majority of Albanians in Kosovo today claim their origin from north of Albania or Montenegro . That used to be by evidence Illyrain territory.

[Aspurg]

DRITINI, you are from the area which used to be called Triballian field, and there is NW Bulgarian in this subclade. So that might easily be your ancestry. I don't think CTS9320 is classical Thracian, I think it must be at the core of Daco-Moesian-Triballian ethnogenesis. Some of its branches being Illyrian, and few Greek etc.

Yes Albanians have lots of diversity there, and for that there are various reasons. But in Dacian areas CTS9320 diversity is at least as great and usually involves clades very distant from Albanian clades. And Albanians are better tested than Dacian areas.

About BY4526 there are 2 clades in Carpathians, and there is some "Z37530" in South Albania, also a Vlach from there being "Z37530", while E-Y20805 being positioned in Central Balkans.

Thus far a unique Albanian CTS9320 is E-Y84585. Though I've seen one Bulgarian haplotype which "probably" belongs to it. Of CTS9320 clades not being at YFull, there is one Bulgarian CTS9320* but this clade has highest diversity in Dacia and it looks Dacian, with few Balkan members (Bulgarian, Macedonian) being arrivals from North of Danube (with Vlachs ?). While the other CTS9320* clade is again one NW Bulgarian, and with him anonymous Romanian. One Greek CTS9320* from Greek Thrace.

[DRITINI]

I am originally also of northern Albania, to be more precise we apparently went from northwest to the northeast of Albania. Then to Kosovo . That happened 200 years ago . So I would not make arguments for sure where who is from, until we get more data related to ancient DNA. All what you me and anyone else is saying here is interpretation and not scientifically proven.Thus we shall be a bit careful what is taken as proven and as assumed ...

[PaschalisB]

One Greek CTS9320* from Greek Thrace.

I am that Greek

[Aspurg]

I am that Greek

I know, you are Z16988-, Z17107-, Z17264-, S19928-, I guess you did an SNP pack when BY4526 was not available. You might try that one, you don't seem to be likely E-Y20805 either because they have an old STR of dys456=18. Or you might try BigY when it's on discount.:)

[Dema]

I am sure that E-v13 was Illyrian haplogroup. There was only one ancient Illyrian bone tested and J2-L283 was lucky to score it, proving without doubt that it was present among Illyrians.

However if we would test more bones like its done in many other studies i am sure that we would find E-v13 there. I expected Mycenaeans also to score some E-v13. It was a bit surprising not to find E-v13 there but it was only one Mycenaean bone also. However there was no E-v13 in 3 ancient Minoans, 1 Mycenaean, and 1 Illyrian so far.

I still think Illyrian and Thracian zone is best to look at. E-L618+ v13- found in Dalmatia 5500 BCE shows that E-v13 ancestor was already in region.

Also regarding Albanians, situation is that there is many various branches inside of CTS5856 (main v13 subclade), also recently PH1246 was found among Albanians (brother clade of CTS5856), and even more recently L618+ v13- (rare brother clade of E-v13) was found in Albania in Laberia region - https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L618/

Two samples under process are from Albania and they will soon form Albanian brother clade of E-v13.

Also not to forget that E-v13 when it comes to percentage it achieves its highest percentages in Balkans and especially among Albanians normally up to 30 % but it can go even higher.

[PaschalisB]

I know, you are Z16988-, Z17107-, Z17264-, S19928-, I guess you did an SNP pack when BY4526 was not available. You might try that one, you don't seem to be likely E-Y20805 either because they have an old STR of dys456=18. Or you might try BigY when it's on discount.:)

For some reason FTDNA doesn't let me buy the BY4526 SNP, I also believe I am positive for it, since the STRs from the CTS9320 project who belong to that subclade are similar to mine.

[DRITINI]

For some reason FTDNA doesn't let me buy the BY4526 SNP, I also believe I am positive for it, since the STRs from the CTS9320 project who belong to that subclade are similar to mine.

As I am also positive for BY4526 (A+) I would be interested in comparing markers...if you are interested as well ?

[torzio]

My paternal marker gives me a position of france next to west switzerland.

Ftdna program gives me north austria