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Thread: Updated phylogenetic tree of E-V13

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    Fair to say that e-v13 was spread throughout Europe by roman-illyrian-albanese soldiers

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    Fair to say that e-v13 was spread throughout Europe by roman-illyrian-albanese soldiers
    No, some clades may have, but E-V13 was in general spread earlier in Europe.

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    If I look at the distribution map of E-V13, without having further details about the subgroups, it seems to me that it spread from the south of the Balkans, it took the Danube highway up to the North, even further to Germany/Danemark then it was spread with the Goths to Crimea and then it took the route with Ostrogoths and/or Visigoths through the Balkans (the latter) as far as to Iberian peninsula.

    If we have a big diversity of E-V13 in the Balkans, it could be the Visigoths that passed through with another layer of this haplogroup.

    In Wales, it could be a roman soldier but I would not exclude the other possibilities from the continent (Celtic, Vikings, Normans, etc.), since we don't have it in big numbers there.

    We see some presence even in Scandinavia, it's very possible that it came there with the Vikings/Rus (Volga route) or even earlier, directly from North Germany, or even from Slav slaves which Vikings took with them and which also sometimes came along to raid other regions.

    So to wrap it up: Balkans (former farmers) -> Hallstatt/La Tène -> somewhere close to North Germany (ethnogenesis of Germani tribes) -> Goths -> direction Crimea with split to Ostrogoths/Visigoths -> Balkans -> North Italy -> Iberia.

    Quite a round, but it would explain the subhaplo diversity. I'm obviously not an expert and I won't be sad if anyone corrects me. This is just for discussion purposes.

    I would also highly recommend reading Jean Manco "Ancestral Journeys - the peopling of Europe..." if someone has missed it. It's an easy but educational read, very up to date.

    Cheers

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Well there was one E-M78* in a Gheg from Arberesh study who was V13-, V22-, V12- so likely some L618*.

    I think E-V13 spread about 8000 years ago via maritime route to Southern Italy and from there to Dalmatia as part of Cardial Impresso culture. Genetically mostly same as other Anatolian EEF's with the small Natufian-like influence and also these weren't much of farmers to begin with, more of fisherman population which adopted farming later. V13 developed on Dalmatian coast as part of subsequently Danilo, Hvar and few other cultures. When IE pastoralists came V13 adapted well unlike most EEF's. May be that being Afroasiatic pastoralists in distant origin, Phalic cult being likely present in Neolithic Dalmatia unlike other G2a EEF's where Matriarchy was the norm. Archaeologists spoke of this potential indication of some Patriarchy in Neolithic Dalmatia which was unusual, but as we now know genetically these were a different people (not G2a2).
    Likely source of V13 is Pre Pottery Neolithic B, there is one Middle-eastern clade of L618, found in a Saudi, and an Algerian who clusters with him.

    So with an influence of some R1a and R-Z2103 they formed Cetina culture, and they flourished at that time. At the same time Bell Beaker IE groups were also penetrating from NW bringing more J-L283, Cetina people migrated to Greece (some PH1246 there), but also towards the East forming the Bubanj Hum III, Armenochori, Belotic-Bela Crkva complex. These should have been the E-CTS1273, then they became part of a large Danubian archaeological complex in cultures such as Vatin, Verbicioara etc. spreading towards Carpathians. Cetina died out in the West with the remnants joining J-L283 dominated cultures.

    At this stage the languages brought by J-L283 might have been Veneto-Liburnian while in the East some other language related to Greek was spoken, like Paeonian, Phrygian. Albanian itself has some distant connections to Greek itself. Possibly Dorian was spoken by some cultures which included some V13 clades such as Y3183 and L241. So it seems some older Z2103 languages were prominent.
    But if L283 brought classical Illyrian, maybe that originally Cetina people (so V13) spoke Veneto-Liburnian.

    One of peoples are also the Pelastians, Strymon rivers former name was Palaistinos, and some R-Z2103 clades such as Y5586 are very divrse in the area as are some CTS1273 and especially E-FGC44169 which is very diverse in the Middle East, and at least some of these might be Philistines (one was R-M269). "Pelasgian" is likely a Greek corruption (which designated different peoples), but as attested by Egyptian P'R'S'T, Philistines and river Palaistinos this must be the original name of this people that spoke some IE language. Though as seen by most Greek Philistine burial the European component was mostly Anatolian EEF. So already in Bronze age formed this Balkan mixture of EEF + some Yamnaya, with those Delmatae being in cluster not with modern Albanians but with modern Catalans etc.

    Then the late Bronze Age collapse came. From Central Europe a wave of Urnfield R-U152 heavy peoples invaded including proto-Illyrians. Meanwhile from the East appeared Noua culture a Srubnaya variant which might have brought the Thracian language, and being R-Z93 + R-Z92.
    Urnfield Illyrians and other Urnfield peoples overwhelmed the Western Balkan, they pushed some V13 clades like L241, and Y3183 to the East all the way to Greece which likely included Dorians, others being assimilated. In the Central Balkans some E-V13's were pushed to the South (hence some diversity in the South of Albania) where they might have formed the subsequent Southern Illyrian Tumulus culture. Along the way some R-U152 became Dorian increasing Central European autosomal profile such as the one seen in Cretan sample.
    Some V13 clades such as CTS9320 which originate in Eastern Balkans (maybe Carpathians) likely backstabbed the others and spread the new Thracian language around.

    I think linguistic picture of the Balkan might have changed dramatically in Bronze Age collapse.

    This is of course with Thracian being newer arrival, which I think is quite likely, might be same with the Illyrian.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Btw, the two new L618* samples are Tosk Albanian: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L618/


    They will form a parallel branch to V13 and BY6578.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    Btw, the two new L618* samples are Tosk Albanian: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L618/


    They will form a parallel branch to V13 and BY6578.
    Are they related to ALB013fta from Arberesh study who is E-M78 (xV12,V13,V22)? They might be some old Cardial migrants to there, or maybe they arrived from the North if they cluster with this Gheg. This just underscores the correctness of tying E-L618 with Cardial Coastal Western Balkan. And of course Cetina culture as that culture had strong pre-IE element in the same area where aDNA L618+ was found.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    But if L283 brought classical Illyrian, maybe that originally Cetina people (so V13) spoke Veneto-Liburnian.
    According to Katicic the Illyrians of Albania were Illyrians proper, Delmatae, Pannonians were a different group under influence of Celtoid populations, which corresponds well with Unrfield R-U152 movement 8and some diversity of these clades in the Western Balkans, usually isolated from the Western European clades). So going after Katičić L283 brought Illyrian proper.
    Liburnian might in that case represent something pre-Illyrian.

    Regarding V13, it's obvious V13 migrated to the East or/and might have been pushed to the East by the J-L283 wave itself. Bulgarian linguist Georgiev proposed that the Pelasgian language was closely related to Thracian:
    "Thracian and Pelasgian are most probably two dialects of a single Thraco-Pelasgian language" (Georgiev 1981:361).

    This would favor "older Thracian" in the Balkans. And V13 expansion towards Eastern area fits into that. If Thracian is later arrival then some other languages, Graeco-Phrygian might be the answer. I think it is probably not a coincidence that in Ossetians CTS1273, BY3880- is found alongside basal R-Y5586, both of these clades have roughly similar point of diversity and similar TMRCA in those areas, that is that V13 joined some R-Y5586 population.

    V13 clades going Eastwards might have contributed to the more Southeastern autosomal profile of IA Thracians in comparison to LBA Illyrians on Dalmatian coast.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Are they related to ALB013fta from Arberesh study who is E-M78 (xV12,V13,V22)? They might be some old Cardial migrants to there, or maybe they arrived from the North if they cluster with this Gheg. This just underscores the correctness of tying E-L618 with Cardial Coastal Western Balkan. And of course Cetina culture as that culture had strong pre-IE element in the same area where aDNA L618+ was found.
    Not at all. That Gheg (ALB013fta) from Boattini most likely represent another parallel branch under L618.


    Forgot to mention, there is also a Gheg with origin from Kosove (living in Turkey) and a Greek from Koukoulis, Greece (Janine region) on 23andme listed as L618. They must be V13-, assuming 23andme placed them correctly.
    Last edited by Leka; 31-10-19 at 22:17.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    Fair to say that e-v13 was spread throughout Europe by roman-illyrian-albanese soldiers
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    According to Katicic the Illyrians of Albania were Illyrians proper, Delmatae, Pannonians were a different group under influence of Celtoid populations, which corresponds well with Unrfield R-U152 movement 8and some diversity of these clades in the Western Balkans, usually isolated from the Western European clades). So going after Katičić L283 brought Illyrian proper.
    Liburnian might in that case represent something pre-Illyrian.

    Regarding V13, it's obvious V13 migrated to the East or/and might have been pushed to the East by the J-L283 wave itself. Bulgarian linguist Georgiev proposed that the Pelasgian language was closely related to Thracian:
    "Thracian and Pelasgian are most probably two dialects of a single Thraco-Pelasgian language" (Georgiev 1981:361).

    This would favor "older Thracian" in the Balkans. And V13 expansion towards Eastern area fits into that. If Thracian is later arrival then some other languages, Graeco-Phrygian might be the answer. I think it is probably not a coincidence that in Ossetians CTS1273, BY3880- is found alongside basal R-Y5586, both of these clades have roughly similar point of diversity and similar TMRCA in those areas, that is that V13 joined some R-Y5586 population.

    V13 clades going Eastwards might have contributed to the more Southeastern autosomal profile of IA Thracians in comparison to LBA Illyrians on Dalmatian coast.
    Can anyone here tell me one pelasgian/thracian sentence? As far as I know there is only a bunch of Thracian words known , same holds for Illyrian. Pelasgian is still more kind of a mythos. I am happy if you can prove me wrong 😁 then at least some advance is happening in detecting the ancient languages

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    Quote Originally Posted by DRITINI View Post
    Can anyone here tell me one pelasgian/thracian sentence? As far as I know there is only a bunch of Thracian words known , same holds for Illyrian. Pelasgian is still more kind of a mythos. I am happy if you can prove me wrong 😁 then at least some advance is happening in detecting the ancient languages
    We have enough thracian words that are cognates with other IE words to know what evolution certain phonemes underwent. Sound change is regular and consistent unless 1. Loan word, or 2. Areal influence from foreign language.

    Albanian does not show thracian reflexes. Infact, the only IE language which has reflexes like Albanian is Messapic, the Illyrian language that actually has the most inscription (up to 600) which are only now being analysed.

    Here is one example:

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...869#post588869
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    I am aware of this , but if Aspurg relates on Georgiev, I wanna know what exactly is taken as indicator for his assumptions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DRITINI View Post
    I am aware of this , but if Aspurg relates on Georgiev, I wanna know what exactly is taken as indicator for his assumptions.
    http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php...41F9202BF538EC

    Here is "Ancient Languages of the Balkans" by Katičić, so you can read about Pelasgian of Georgiev too there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    Fair to say that e-v13 was spread throughout Europe by roman-illyrian-albanese soldiers
    E v13 again is an Indo-European haplogroup. It means it came to Balkans together with R1B, r1A AND j2 in the Bronx age,. Its not a haplogroup who predated or after dated the Indo-Europeans, or somehow expanded from the Balkans. This haplogroup is not present in non Indo-European populations like Estonia, Finland, since this people are not Indo-Europeans. Sweden on the other hand which borders Finland has the Ev13. Had it not been Indo-European it should have crossed in these contries

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    E v13 again is an Indo-European haplogroup. It means it came to Balkans together with R1B, r1A AND j2 in the Bronx age,. Its not a haplogroup who predated or after dated the Indo-Europeans, or somehow expanded from the Balkans. This haplogroup is not present in non Indo-European populations like Estonia, Finland, since this people are not Indo-Europeans. Sweden on the other hand which borders Finland has the Ev13. Had it not been Indo-European it should have crossed in these contries
    Came together? Unlikely, came to Europe at a similar period, sure. But from different background, language, area

    The fact that v13 is strong in balkans points to it being an elite race that dominated that region early on. A bit like the Slavic invasion which brought i2a to the balkans and settled there much later, v13 came to the balkans and settled there but how much of the previous population did they wipe out/scare off and what was the initial population if anything

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    Came together? Unlikely, came to Europe at a similar period, sure. But from different background, language, area

    The fact that v13 is strong in balkans points to it being an elite race that dominated that region early on. A bit like the Slavic invasion which brought i2a to the balkans and settled there much later, v13 came to the balkans and settled there but how much of the previous population did they wipe out/scare off and what was the initial population if anything
    the data available points to Indo-European origin of e v13. Read Maciamo what he has to say about this haplo. What makes you think E-V13 WAS AN ELITE? No such evidence! Wishes is a different matter! the earliest haplogroups are I and long after it haplogroup G

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    the data available points to Indo-European origin of e v13. Read Maciamo what he has to say about this haplo. What makes you think E-V13 WAS AN ELITE? No such evidence! Wishes is a different matter! the earliest haplogroups are I and long after it haplogroup G
    What do you mean by indo european exactly? What age are you talking about here? The ancestor of v13 was mediterranean z1919 according to your chart. I don't think these charts are reliable anyway, there isn't enough data, there is a jump from mediterranean to scotland/northern europe for v13 and then much later back down to balkans. The most sensible part of that chart is the movement from croatia to albania, a region dominated by ilyrians

    The best data we have is current data which shows v13 being strong in balkans with a steady spread throughout Europe in particular regions the romans conquered, almost nonexistent in Africa or Asia

    Oldest doesn't mean elite, I said elite balkan race because they pushed others out and prolonged their stay, made the place their own. Where is proof that g is even European or that it is an elite race when it doesn't have any strong points anywhere in Europe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I think E-V13 spread about 8000 years ago via maritime route to Southern Italy and from there to Dalmatia as part of Cardial Impresso culture.
    This is of course with Thracian being newer arrival, which I think is quite likely, might be same with the Illyrian.
    Some V13 clades such as CTS9320 which originate in Eastern Balkans (maybe Carpathians) likely backstabbed the others and spread the new Thracian language around
    I'm think this logic too ! One question why is not this CTS9320 related with Romania (Dacia) in this chart, and the only clade for this country is waaaaay too recent (A7065) of classic antiquity ?
    Last edited by LeoJ; 22-11-19 at 12:13.

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