Ramses II DNA?

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Will we ever get autosomal results from this guy? Given his confirmed natural red hair (not dyed or a result of the mummification process - this has been proven and discussed to death so take your own time to Google), the results would be fascinating. It's extremely unlikely he would have been anything darker than light olive skin given his hair colour, which of course leads to all kinds of speculation (and White nationalism tries to feed off of this too, despite the fact that the source of e.g. red hair to Ramses is going to be much closer to that of Jews etc.)

What about other ancient Egyptian mummies with interesting phenotypes, like Thuya and Yuya?

It's interesting that the head Egyptologist in Cairo refused to publish Tutankhamun's results, and perhaps not coincidentally he was "leaked" (debatable) as being R1b-M269.

Anyway, basically does anybody have any idea of this? The mummies seem to be pretty well preserved, so surely it can't be that hard to extract the relevant genetic material.

Is this being hindered by the sensitivity of the issue at hand?

 

[davef]

I highly doubt scientists let political correctness or the urge to make everyone feel good get in the way, just last year we have studies that unveiled the genetic makeup of Egyptian mummies who were very close to Arabs, Canaanites were very Lebanese like, and Mycenaeans were very Southern Italian like. Im sure these studies revealed that these iconic civilizations weren't close to groups certain individuals wanted them to be, but these studies were published and are easily available on the web.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

I highly doubt scientists let political correctness or the urge to make everyone feel good get in the way, just last year we have studies that unveiled the genetic makeup of Egyptian mummies who were very close to Arabs, Canaanites were very Lebanese like, and Mycenaeans were very Southern Italian like. Im sure these studies revealed that these iconic civilizations weren't close to groups certain individuals wanted them to be, but these studies were published and are easily available on the web.

No idea what study you saw, but the ancient Egyptian samples were NOT described as Arab-like at all. They best resembled Neolithic farmers in Europe, but more so in the Levant.

 

[I1a3_Young]

I highly doubt scientists let political correctness or the urge to make everyone feel good get in the way, just last year we have studies that unveiled the genetic makeup of Egyptian mummies who were very close to Arabs, Canaanites were very Lebanese like, and Mycenaeans were very Southern Italian like. Im sure these studies revealed that these iconic civilizations weren't close to groups certain individuals wanted them to be, but these studies were published and are easily available on the web.

The Egyptians are purposefully witholding Tut's YDNA but they released Ramses. Why would that be unless they are uncomfortable with the results?

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

The Egyptians are purposefully witholding Tut's YDNA but they released Ramses. Why would that be unless they are uncomfortable with the results?

It just has to be R1b-M269, as predicted.

How petty of them.

Now consider this attitude is widespread in many places, from the Indo-Aryans (this is largely dying as it is so indisputable) to even the Americas, where it is nigh certain an R1b tribe made its way thousands of years ago.

Red-haired mummies, as well as Swastikas - that’s no coincidence. They must have civilised the Amerindians, so of course it’s sensitive. I just hope the truth isn’t lost to tribalism and political correctness.

 

[Johane Derite]

It just has to be R1b-M269, as predicted.

How petty of them.

Now consider this attitude is widespread in many places, from the Indo-Aryans (this is largely dying as it is so indisputable) to even the Americas, where it is nigh certain an R1b tribe made its way thousands of years ago.

Red-haired mummies, as well as Swastikas - that’s no coincidence. They must have civilised the Amerindians, so of course it’s sensitive. I just hope the truth isn’t lost to tribalism and political correctness.

Nothing pissess me off more than the supression of the truth and the results. Even for good intentions.
But what if the haplogroup is Afro? Egypt is still very anti black... Dont be so sure of things not yet revealed.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Nothing pissess me off more than the supression of the truth and the results. Even for good intentions.
But what if the haplogroup is Afro? Egypt is still very anti black... Dont be so sure of things not yet revealed.

Didnt they claim Ramses III was the African variant of E1b? I have doubts on that to be honest, but I guess it could come from the Nubians. But if they were open with Ramses III’s African Y DNA, they would have been with Tut.

To my mind, mummies with red hair (natural red hair, not from the mummification process) is enough to draw a basic picture. The same goes for things like skull forms. Unfortunately, though, they can never be as accurate as DNA testing, so history is now down to a few hundred people deciding what to reveal or not.

In Peru though, they actually, purposefully corrupted and basically destroyed one of the mummies. There are photos of it with fairly pale skin and red/brown hair, but since then his skin and hair have been artificially darkened. Things like that are what angers me. Honestly, I would support a group of neo-Nazis breaking into these museums to extract samples, so long as they were honest. But such an idea is pretty radical. Not that the mummies would score Steppe at all, in all likelihood.

 

[IronSide]

@ToBeOrNotToBe aka Dr.Eugenics

Red-haired pale people civilizing the Amerindians

I like your posts on this forum, I learn a lot from you, please continue to enlighten us hahahaah

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

@ToBeOrNotToBe aka Dr.Eugenics

Red-haired pale people civilizing the Amerindians

I like your posts on this forum, I learn a lot from you, please continue to enlighten us hahahaah

Well the civilizing thing was just a timing coincidence, they could have theoretically come as invaders to a pre-existing civilization.

But I take it you aren’t going to argue against those mummies, right?

 

[IronSide]

Well the civilizing thing was just a timing coincidence, they could have theoretically come as invaders to a pre-existing civilization.

But I take it you aren’t going to argue against those mummies, right?

You know ... it's unfair, Ok Dr. Eugenics, I promise I'll keep an open mind, convince me of some of the crazy shit you believe.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

You know ... it's unfair, Ok Dr. Eugenics, I promise I'll keep an open mind, convince me of some of the crazy shit you believe.

For starters, no racial supremacy here - they were just adventurers.

Anyway, people make all sorts of claims , but at the end of the day, look at the red-haired mummies in places with no red hair today. And yes, natural red hair - it actually looks different under the microscope to non-natural red hair.

Here is just one example of the many Egyptian mummies showing natural red (and sometimes blond-ish) hair colour - the legendary Ramses II, aka Ozymandias. Well, Ramses may have dyed it red given he was bloody ancient at death iirc, but it doesn’t change the fact of his natural hair colour.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...ses_II_mummy_in_profile_(colored_picture).jpg

He isn’t an isolated case though, Google is your friend.

Theres similar cases in the Americas, such as in Peru, with this one example amongst many:

https://hiddenincatours.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/2675d84be7cb8629b464a20f09e023be.jpg

The hair of these auburn mummies has been shown to be Caucasoid, but it should be obvious just looking at it.

If the map below is an accepted possibility, why is it unheard of for it to also be true of these auburn blokes?

http://geocurrents.info/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Austronesian-migration-map.jpg

 

[Alyan]

Anybody denying that politics of national self-esteem and/or political correctness has been holding back research on ancient DNA needs to read David Reich's book. He narrates how when studying South Asian remains Indian scientists were hindering efforts since evidence pointed towards Western migrations into South Asia shaping its history right into today. And Egypt's Zahi Hawass was notorious for his hostility towards Westerners among Egypt's embargo on remains.

 

[thejkhan]

Didnt they claim Ramses III was the African variant of E1b? I have doubts on that to be honest, but I guess it could come from the Nubians. But if they were open with Ramses III’s African Y DNA, they would have been with Tut.

No, that was just lazy/sensationalist journalism.

Ramses III was found to be E-V22. This is a purely Middle Eastern, non-Black subclade. Check yfull.com/tree/E-V22/ .

 

[LoiMary]

The king Ra-Me-Sse II. [Ramses II.] would be a very interesting case for DNA project. French may have some DNA samples/material as the king's mummy was in France for research some years ago. Could you approach the Egyptians or French to see if you can analyze his DNA ? The king's reddish hair points to a R1b haplotype marker as well.

 

[Angela]

Red hair is NOT uniquely tied to R1b.

 

[Silesian]

Does anyone know when king Tut's/and father's ydna result's are going to be released? Hopefully some day we can learn about the ydna of this dynasty.

 

[Ygorcs]

No idea what study you saw, but the ancient Egyptian samples were NOT described as Arab-like at all. They best resembled Neolithic farmers in Europe, but more so in the Levant.

That is not true at all. The samples from modern population that plot closest to Ancient Egyptians were some of the Bedouin A, who actually ARE semi-nomads of Arabian origin, (though they are not representative of the bulk of the modern Saudi population), as well as some Palestinians, Saudi Arabians and Lebanese. So, they were certainly closer to Southwest Asians of our days. Besides, the Ancient Egyptians' admixture distrubtion looked close to that of Bronze Age Levant people. They were much more Natufian-like and much less Anatolian-like than EEF of Neolithic Europe. Ancient Egyptians were found to have a significant proportion of both Levant Neolithic and Iranian Neolithic Farmer ancestry - in both cases very unlike Neolithic European Farmers, who were overwhelmingly Anatolian Neolithic + WHG. There is nothing particularly "EEF-like" in the Ancient Egyptian DNA that was analyzed.

 

[Ygorcs]

It just has to be R1b-M269, as predicted.

How petty of them.

Now consider this attitude is widespread in many places, from the Indo-Aryans (this is largely dying as it is so indisputable) to even the Americas, where it is nigh certain an R1b tribe made its way thousands of years ago.

Red-haired mummies, as well as Swastikas - that’s no coincidence. They must have civilised the Amerindians, so of course it’s sensitive. I just hope the truth isn’t lost to tribalism and political correctness.

Oh what a recklessly courageous statement: they must have civilised the Amerindians. Of course they "must" have been the civilized and powerful ones, there is no other possibility. Even if (and a big if) the R1b found in the Native American tribes is truly pre-Columbian and dates back to thousands of years ago, the only Amerindian non-assimilated tribes that have really a lot of R1b are located in the east/northeast of North America, precisely one of the least civilized parts of Pre-Columbian America. Mesoamerica, most of he Andes, the Pacific Coast of South America, the really civilized and much more advanced parts of the Americas before the European conquest? There is little presence of R1b in indigenous tribes almost everywhere, especially in unmixed ones. You people seem to forget that the Americas are almost as large as Asia, and only a part of it had fully developed urban civilizations by 1492 AD (and those civilizations were mostly south of the Rio Grande and far away from supposedly "native R1b" in North America).

By the way, I think that it's been more than enough time for people to know for sure if the clades of R1b are different from those of Western Europeans (R1b people in the Americas since several milennia ago would certainly have developed differently and diverged significantly from the Western European clades). Is it true that nobody has investigated that yet?

 

[Angela]

That is not true at all. The modern populations that were closest to Ancient Egyptians were Bedouin B, who actually ARE semi-nomads of Arabian origin, though they are not representative of the bulk of the modern Saudi population. The Ancient Egyptians' autosomal makeup looked close to that of Bronze Age Levant people and much more Natufian-like and much less Anatolian-like than EEF. And no, Ancient Egyptians were found to have a significant proportion of both Levant Neolithic and Iranian Neolithic Farmer ancestry - in both cases very unlike Neolithic European Farmers, who were overwhelmingly Anatolian Neolithic + WHG.

Amazing, isn't it, the absolute inability of some people to understand some of these papers? I'm being charitable here, because if it's not inability to comprehend this level of text, it's an attempt at deliberate misinformation.

 

[Angela]

Oh what a recklessly courageous statement: they must have civilised the Amerindians. Of course they "must" have been the civilized and powerful ones, there is no other possibility. Even if (and a big if) the R1b found in the Native American tribes is truly pre-Columbian and dates back to thousands of years ago, the only Amerindian non-assimilated tribes that have really a lot of R1b are located in the east/northeast of North America, precisely one of the least civilized parts of Pre-Columbian America. Mesoamerica, most of he Andes, the Pacific Coast of South America, the really civilized and much more advanced parts of the Americas before the European conquest? There is little presence of R1b in indigenous tribes almost everywhere, especially in unmixed ones. You people seem to forget that the Americas are almost as large as Asia, and only a part of it had fully developed urban civilizations by 1492 AD (and those civilizations were mostly south of the Rio Grande and far away from supposedly "native R1b" in North America).

By the way, I think that it's been more than enough time for people to know for sure if the clades of R1b are different from those of Western Europeans (R1b people in the Americas since several milennia ago would certainly have developed differently and diverged significantly from the Western European clades). Is it true that nobody has investigated that yet?

Everything I've seen shows those men in the northeastern parts of North America carry young, downstream clades of R1b, which obviously came with European settlers.

Even the mtDna X2 has been shown to be the Central Asian version, not the European version.

This is all complete nonsense with no support in either genetics or archaeology.