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Thread: 137 ancient human genomes from across the Eurasian steppes

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Also, still no "steppe" in Bronze Age Anatolia, and a different view of the impact of "steppe" peoples in India.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it really a "different view", one incompatible with that presented by the Reich et al. South Asian paper? I mean, this new study states that the Yamnaya "proper" migrations didn't affect South Asia, but there were West Eurasian-related migrations before and after Yamnaya. Doesn't that correlate perfectly well with the hypothesis presented by "the" South Asian preprint that there was West Siberian ancestry (I assume it had more West Eurasian affinity, right?) before the arrival of "BA steppe" ancestry, and that this steppe ancestry only came much later than the Yamnaya period, probably with later eastern offshoots Andronovo? As far as I understood the basic claims in both studies, I think both views fit each other well.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpenjager View Post
    DA125, T1a3a1a1-Y13279, is the oldest or one of the two oldest samples 1738 yBP belonging to the Kang-Sogdians.

    Kang-Sogdians belongs to T1a3a1a1-Y13279 (1 sample) + R1a-S23592 (2 samples)

    Attachment 10107

    Attachment 10108


    T1a3a1a1-Y13279 is found in modern Kazakhstan (Predicted) and among Pathans (Predicted)as well as in Europe (Confirmed)and Irak (Confirmed).
    Results for this sample above
    .
    Gedrosia K12 Oracle
    .
    Admix Results (sorted):
    .
    # Population Percent
    1 SINTASHTA_STEPPE_HERDERS 36.17
    2 EARLY_EUROPEAN_FARMERS 20.93
    3 CAUCASUS 16.27
    4 BALOCHI 13.25
    5 INDO_TIBETAN 3.56
    6 SUB_SAHARAN 2.73
    7 SW_ASIAN 2.59
    8 E_SIBERIAN 1.82
    9 S_INDIAN 1.62
    10 W_SIBERIAN 1.07
    .
    .
    Finished reading population data. 87 populations found.
    12 components mode.

    --------------------------------
    .
    Least-squares method.
    .
    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Norwegian @ 27.047358
    2 Tajik_Pomiri @ 29.613884
    3 Greek @ 30.204453
    4 Russian @ 30.475681
    5 Turkmen_Afghan @ 32.066235
    6 Turks_Istanbul @ 33.265747
    7 Uzbek @ 33.983425
    8 Finnish @ 35.916382
    9 Sicilian @ 36.177418
    10 Turks_Aydin @ 36.290226
    11 Uzbek_Afghan @ 36.405033
    12 Tajik_Afghan @ 36.703457
    13 Kurds_C @ 37.516556
    14 Turks_Balikesir @ 37.872124
    15 Kurds_N @ 38.548668
    16 Estonian @ 38.995659
    17 Pashtun_Afghan @ 40.051208
    18 Lithuanian @ 40.209137
    19 Kurds_E @ 40.435959
    20 Kurds_F @ 40.643627
    .
    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Norwegian +50% Tajik_Pomiri @ 7.165861
    .
    .
    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Norwegian +25% Tajik_Pomiri +25% Turkmen_Afghan @ 6.523515
    .
    .
    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    1 Estonian + Kurds_E + Norwegian + Tajik_Pomiri @ 5.565871
    2 Finnish + Kurds_E + Norwegian + Tajik_Pomiri @ 5.669582
    3 Estonian + Iranian + Norwegian + Tajik_Pomiri @ 5.710850
    4 Kurds_E + Lithuanian + Norwegian + Tajik_Pomiri @ 5.742424
    5 Estonian + Kurds_N + Norwegian + Tajik_Pomiri @ 5.769520
    6 Finnish + Kurds_N + Norwegian + Tajik_Pomiri @ 5.815739
    7 Iranian + Lithuanian + Norwegian + Tajik_Pomiri @ 5.837358
    8 Kurds_E + Norwegian + Russian + Tajik_Pomiri @ 5.848020
    9 Kurds_N + Lithuanian + Norwegian + Uzbek_Afghan @ 5.856154
    10 Kurds_E + Lithuanian + Norwegian + Uzbek_Afghan @ 5.862832
    11 Kurds_N + Norwegian + Russian + Tajik_Pomiri @ 5.877268
    12 Kurds_SE + Lithuanian + Norwegian + Turks_Istanbul @ 5.915348
    13 Kurds_C + Norwegian + Russian + Tajik_Pomiri @ 5.915402
    14 Estonian + Kurds_SE + Norwegian + Turks_Istanbul @ 5.935220
    15 Kurds_N + Lithuanian + Norwegian + Tajik_Pomiri @ 5.940321
    16 Estonian + Kurds_C + Norwegian + Tajik_Pomiri @ 5.944089
    17 Finnish + Kurds_C + Norwegian + Tajik_Pomiri @ 5.959805
    18 Kurds_SE + Lithuanian + Norwegian + Turks_Aydin @ 5.968935
    19 Estonian + Kurds_N + Norwegian + Uzbek_Afghan @ 5.973429
    20 Estonian + Kurds_E + Norwegian + Uzbek_Afghan @ 5.999063
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    The thing that brought most military victories to the Huns was mounted archery,my hypothesis is that they also used the stirrups which enabled them to be very stable on their horses while shooting.According to Roman general Belisarius cited by Procopius mounted archery and use of bow was why Romans lost many wars,they later hired Hun mercenaries in the Gothic wars, Goths are said to fight on horseback but with sword and spear.
    While is certain that Avars introduced the stirrups to Europe,for the Huns has yet to be proven.



    The stirrup, which gives greater stability to a rider, has been described as one of the most significant inventions in the history of warfare, prior to gunpowder.

    Same tradition and military tactics followed by the Turks and Mongols proved very superior for that time.
    It's hard for me to believe that no one thought of the stirrup before this.

    It would be like inventing a motorcycle and not thinking of pegs to rest your feet for thousands of years. I almost can't buy it on this on this analogy. Wtf.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    There is an I2c2 in the list, DA31, he is not from the Steppe but from the Caucasus !!! Lchashen Metsamor culture, I2c2 today is predominantly Caucasian and Aegean.

    And the Y-full age estimates have changed !! the subclade used to date from 4000 ybp, but now its 3300 ybp, DA31 is actually 3200 years old, maybe that's my ancestor :)

    Information on Lchashen Metsamor culture.
    Congrats Ironside :) and thanks for the link!

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    I have split the long discussion about the origins of the Anatolian branch of Indo-European to avoid mixing it with this paper's main topic, which is the west to east shift in ancestry in the Eurasian Steppe between 2500 BCE and 1500 CE.

    I also started a new thread for the other study mentioned by Jovialis: Ancient hepatitis B viruses from the Bronze Age to the Medieval period
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Results for this sample above
    .
    Gedrosia K12 Oracle
    .
    Admix Results (sorted):
    .
    # Population Percent
    1 SINTASHTA_STEPPE_HERDERS 36.17
    2 EARLY_EUROPEAN_FARMERS 20.93
    3 CAUCASUS 16.27
    4 BALOCHI 13.25
    5 INDO_TIBETAN 3.56
    6 SUB_SAHARAN 2.73
    7 SW_ASIAN 2.59
    8 E_SIBERIAN 1.82
    9 S_INDIAN 1.62
    10 W_SIBERIAN 1.07
    .
    .
    Finished reading population data. 87 populations found.
    12 components mode.

    --------------------------------
    .
    Least-squares method.
    .
    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Norwegian @ 27.047358
    2 Tajik_Pomiri @ 29.613884
    3 Greek @ 30.204453
    4 Russian @ 30.475681
    5 Turkmen_Afghan @ 32.066235
    6 Turks_Istanbul @ 33.265747
    7 Uzbek @ 33.983425
    8 Finnish @ 35.916382
    9 Sicilian @ 36.177418
    10 Turks_Aydin @ 36.290226
    11 Uzbek_Afghan @ 36.405033
    12 Tajik_Afghan @ 36.703457
    13 Kurds_C @ 37.516556
    14 Turks_Balikesir @ 37.872124
    15 Kurds_N @ 38.548668
    16 Estonian @ 38.995659
    17 Pashtun_Afghan @ 40.051208
    18 Lithuanian @ 40.209137
    19 Kurds_E @ 40.435959
    20 Kurds_F @ 40.643627
    .
    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Norwegian +50% Tajik_Pomiri @ 7.165861
    .
    .
    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Norwegian +25% Tajik_Pomiri +25% Turkmen_Afghan @ 6.523515
    .
    .
    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    1 Estonian + Kurds_E + Norwegian + Tajik_Pomiri @ 5.565871
    2 Finnish + Kurds_E + Norwegian + Tajik_Pomiri @ 5.669582
    3 Estonian + Iranian + Norwegian + Tajik_Pomiri @ 5.710850
    4 Kurds_E + Lithuanian + Norwegian + Tajik_Pomiri @ 5.742424
    5 Estonian + Kurds_N + Norwegian + Tajik_Pomiri @ 5.769520
    6 Finnish + Kurds_N + Norwegian + Tajik_Pomiri @ 5.815739
    7 Iranian + Lithuanian + Norwegian + Tajik_Pomiri @ 5.837358
    8 Kurds_E + Norwegian + Russian + Tajik_Pomiri @ 5.848020
    9 Kurds_N + Lithuanian + Norwegian + Uzbek_Afghan @ 5.856154
    10 Kurds_E + Lithuanian + Norwegian + Uzbek_Afghan @ 5.862832
    11 Kurds_N + Norwegian + Russian + Tajik_Pomiri @ 5.877268
    12 Kurds_SE + Lithuanian + Norwegian + Turks_Istanbul @ 5.915348
    13 Kurds_C + Norwegian + Russian + Tajik_Pomiri @ 5.915402
    14 Estonian + Kurds_SE + Norwegian + Turks_Istanbul @ 5.935220
    15 Kurds_N + Lithuanian + Norwegian + Tajik_Pomiri @ 5.940321
    16 Estonian + Kurds_C + Norwegian + Tajik_Pomiri @ 5.944089
    17 Finnish + Kurds_C + Norwegian + Tajik_Pomiri @ 5.959805
    18 Kurds_SE + Lithuanian + Norwegian + Turks_Aydin @ 5.968935
    19 Estonian + Kurds_N + Norwegian + Uzbek_Afghan @ 5.973429
    20 Estonian + Kurds_E + Norwegian + Uzbek_Afghan @ 5.999063
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    agree with your #10 post, Maciamo - helas...

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    It's hard for me to believe that no one thought of the stirrup before this.

    It would be like inventing a motorcycle and not thinking of pegs to rest your feet for thousands of years. I almost can't buy it on this on this analogy. Wtf.
    it's surprising but Celts had no stirrup (according to my readings): they only had specific "horned" saddles; and the Gaulish Celtic cavalry was better than the Roman one; someones say it's only when Romans took with them Germancis cavalry that they won their cavalries oppositions against Celts -

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    They were definitely a confederation, but I have a list of names of Hunnic chiefs and they definitely contain Turkic speakers. So I do think that "Huns" were at least in part a result of mixing with Xiongnu, which I'm pretty sure the paper also shows.
    If you have extensive list of names you can post them.One however can not deny or see important cultural trait like cranial deformation which at first was practiced by the Kushans,then we have the Huns who brought this in Europe to the Goths,Gepids etc,however i can not find this to be practiced among the Xiongnu or Turks.

    Then as i mentioned my hypothesis for the stirrup was also likely first seen in the Kushans,Kushan divinity with stirrup.


    Stirrup in my hypothesis was also adopted by Huns,however there might be Turkic peoples in the Hunnic confederation,but this important things should be noticed.

    However archeologicaly for now we know that Avars brought stirrup in Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    This guy is everything
    I used Gedrosia K12 because it was done by the person who does the admixtures for geneplaza

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    If you have extensive list of names you can post them.One however can not deny or see important cultural trait like cranial deformation which at first was practiced by the Kushans,then we have the Huns who brought this in Europe to the Goths,Gepids etc,however i can not find this to be practiced among the Xiongnu or Turks.
    Actually the deformation culture is really important to understand nomad, which is always ignored in archaeologists. As far as I know, the elongated skull culture started in afanasievo, catacomb, and some okunevo. It continued in scythian, sarmatians and Hun of which only elite group had the deformed heads. Of course they shave their heads except one single long braid which seems to mean sunray like aryan "sikha." So bare head might mean "sun". I think the sihka is R1a-z93 connection.

    Genetically the relationship among scythian, Hun and Xioungnu was well explained in the following post;

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post

    Overall the two dominant lineages of the Scythians, Huns and Alans appear to have been Q1a and R1a-Z93. These are the only two haplogroups that constantly show up in every culture from every region and period. There is also surprisingly little difference between the Scythians and the Huns. On the other hand, the XiongNu and Mongols carried completely different haplogroups (C2b, O3 and R1b-L278), which means that the Huns were in fact not of XiongNu/Mongol descent as most people thought, but of almost purely (Altaian) Scythian descent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    If you have extensive list of names you can post them.One however can not deny or see important cultural trait like cranial deformation which at first was practiced by the Kushans,then we have the Huns who brought this in Europe to the Goths,Gepids etc,however i can not find this to be practiced among the Xiongnu or Turks.

    Then as i mentioned my hypothesis for the stirrup was also likely first seen in the Kushans,Kushan divinity with stirrup.


    Stirrup in my hypothesis was also adopted by Huns,however there might be Turkic peoples in the Hunnic confederation,but this important things should be noticed.

    However archeologicaly for now we know that Avars brought stirrup in Europe.
    Yeah I'm fine with your stirrup theory. And cranial deformation evidence. All good.

    Most of these tribes by this time had some East Asian and Siberian admixture along with some Turkic speakers. They were mostly Iranian in the West and increasingly East Asian in the East as we moved into the Middle Ages. Of course the Iranians were the original gangsters. We all know that.

    The issue with the Huns is that they were entirely illiterate but we have a ton of names from correspondences with Romans using Roman scribes on both sides.

    They were very much a confederation with a bunch of Germanic tribes joining them, so there is of course a bunch of German names but we don't care about those.

    Below are the most likely classifications

    Iranian Names

    something-manos - Iranian - "Massaget" spear man in the Byzantine army, 540 AD

    Ama-bazuka - Old Iranian - Hun Chieftain in the Caucasus, 500 AD

    Balas - Persian - Commander of six hundred Massaget auxiliaries, all mounted archers, in Belisarius' army in 533 AD

    Xorz-aman - Ossetic - "Massaget" bodyguard of Belisarius

    Xorz-amond - Ossetic - "Massaget" bodyguard of Belisarius

    Sturak - Persian (the Roman scribes had actually changed his name to the Greek Styrax because it sounded better to them) - Caucasian Hun Leader, led the war with Glones against the Sabir, 500 AD

    Glones - Persian (Grecized) - Caucasian Hun Leader, led the war with Sturak against the Sabir, 500 AD

    Zabergan - Persian - Leader of the Kutrigur Huns, 555 AD

    Zarmihr - Persian - "Massaget" in the Byzantine Army, 549 AD

    Turkic Names - Apparently these were a ***** to figure out, the few listed are very likely to be Turkic

    Altyev - Kazakh - leader of Hun auxiliaries in Byzantine army, 530 AD

    Ataqam - Turkish - A Hun of noble birth, 433 AD

    Basiq - Some kind of Turkic. Didn't specify. - Hun Leader, 395 AD

    Bairika - Didn't specify

    Dangiziq (or something like that) All Turkic languages - A son of Atilla - This one Priscus heard pronounced at Atilla's court. Isn't that crazy? That I'm sitting here recounting a Hunnic chieftain name that some Byzantine Diplomat heard before dinner 2000 years ago.

    Elmingir - Tunguz

    Aruvkahn - Qaraqalpak girl's name - Atilla's wife

    Sandal - Mamluk - Ruler of Utigur, 555 AD

    Zol-bon - Mamluk - Commander of Hun auxiliaries in Byzantine army, 491 AD


    *EDIT* made the main groups bold faced
    Last edited by holderlin; 12-05-18 at 16:52.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    it's surprising but Celts had no stirrup (according to my readings): they only had specific "horned" saddles; and the Gaulish Celtic cavalry was better than the Roman one; someones say it's only when Romans took with them Germancis cavalry that they won their cavalries oppositions against Celts -
    It must have had something to do with how they trained the horse, or else it's hard to reason with. Perhaps they used their legs more to manipulate them.

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    if I understand well the Damgaard counterdicts the recent Laziridis paper on the subject of the ASI cline formed in IVC

    Laziridis describes ASI cline as AASI + Iranian Farmer + West Siberian HG,
    while Damgaard says IVC period in India is AASI + Namazga CA, and Namazga CA as Iranian farmer + EHG (and absence of CHG)

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    so, Anatolian and Aegean bronze age would not come from Iran Neo, but from CHG,
    and what about Khvalynsk EN and Yamna? is it EHG + Iran Neo, or is it EHG + CHG, or EHG + Iran Neo + CHG?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    if I understand well the Damgaard counterdicts the recent Laziridis paper on the subject of the ASI cline formed in IVC

    Laziridis describes ASI cline as AASI + Iranian Farmer + West Siberian HG,
    while Damgaard says IVC period in India is AASI + Namazga CA, and Namazga CA as Iranian farmer + EHG (and absence of CHG)
    I noticed this too, one paper mentions Namazga as an early source of "west Eurasian" ancestry, but it seems like the other paper makes it clear they actually introduced EHG ancestry with them. Despite this I think Namazga CA is just a proxy for an Iran Neo rich population since Damgaard didn't have other samples from the Turan or Indus to explain this ancestry in South Asians. Iran_Neo probably entered South Asia as early as Mehrgarh so Namazga CA is way too young to have been the primary source of this ancestry.

    If the rest of the BMAC didn't contribute to the genetic legacy of South Asia I highly doubt Namazga CA did, but then again it's possible the canals at Shortugai were inspired by Namazga technology and Namazga is known to have traded with the IVC and introduced certain millets to them. That being said I really don't think Namazga CA had any large contribution to modern South Asians, they might be picking up on ancestry basal to Namazga from the Jeitun culture or earlier, the same cultures that were interacting with Mehrgarh and probably had Iran Neo ancestry without any EHG.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Promenade View Post
    I noticed this too, one paper mentions Namazga as an early source of "west Eurasian" ancestry, but it seems like the other paper makes it clear they actually introduced EHG ancestry with them. Despite this I think Namazga CA is just a proxy for an Iran Neo rich population since Damgaard didn't have other samples from the Turan or Indus to explain this ancestry in South Asians. Iran_Neo probably entered South Asia as early as Mehrgarh so Namazga CA is way too young to have been the primary source of this ancestry.

    If the rest of the BMAC didn't contribute to the genetic legacy of South Asia I highly doubt Namazga CA did, but then again it's possible the canals at Shortugai were inspired by Namazga technology and Namazga is known to have traded with the IVC and introduced certain millets to them. That being said I really don't think Namazga CA had any large contribution to modern South Asians, they might be picking up on ancestry basal to Namazga from the Jeitun culture or earlier, the same cultures that were interacting with Mehrgarh and probably had Iran Neo ancestry without any EHG.
    I agree, the IVC population was the result of local HG + many immigrations of Iranian herders since 9 ka.
    Yet I'm surprised there is also some EHG in it, albeit non-steppe CA/EBA.

    And yes, IVC is way older than both BMAC and Namazga CA, so both can only be proxies, nothing more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    if I understand well the Damgaard counterdicts the recent Laziridis paper on the subject of the ASI cline formed in IVC
    Laziridis describes ASI cline as AASI + Iranian Farmer + West Siberian HG,
    while Damgaard says IVC period in India is AASI + Namazga CA, and Namazga CA as Iranian farmer + EHG (and absence of CHG)
    I wonder how a model like Iranian Neolithic + EHG + East Asian would work..

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    It must have had something to do with how they trained the horse, or else it's hard to reason with. Perhaps they used their legs more to manipulate them.
    more soupleness on the horse, more possiblity to hide on one side of it before reappearing and shouting or striking?
    Only hypothesis. I'm not found of horses, only on pictures!

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    Just a general observation: all these scholars papers use different basic reference elements for their admixtures, even when they keep the name, the basis is not completely defined the same way: boring!

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    Yeah I'm fine with your stirrup theory. And cranial deformation evidence. All good.
    Most of these tribes by this time had some East Asian and Siberian admixture along with some Turkic speakers. They were mostly Iranian in the West and increasingly East Asian in the East as we moved into the Middle Ages. Of course the Iranians were the original gangsters. We all know that.
    The issue with the Huns is that they were entirely illiterate but we have a ton of names from correspondences with Romans using Roman scribes on both sides.
    They were very much a confederation with a bunch of Germanic tribes joining them, so there is of course a bunch of German names but we don't care about those.
    Below are the most likely classifications
    Iranian Names

    something-manos - Iranian - "Massaget" spear man in the Byzantine army, 540 AD
    Ama-bazuka - Old Iranian - Hun Chieftain in the Caucasus, 500 AD
    Balas - Persian - Commander of six hundred Massaget auxiliaries, all mounted archers, in Belisarius' army in 533 AD
    Xorz-aman - Ossetic - "Massaget" bodyguard of Belisarius
    Xorz-amond - Ossetic - "Massaget" bodyguard of Belisarius
    Sturak - Persian (the Roman scribes had actually changed his name to the Greek Styrax because it sounded better to them) - Caucasian Hun Leader, led the war with Glones against the Sabir, 500 AD
    Glones - Persian (Grecized) - Caucasian Hun Leader, led the war with Sturak against the Sabir, 500 AD
    Zabergan - Persian - Leader of the Kutrigur Huns, 555 AD
    Zarmihr - Persian - "Massaget" in the Byzantine Army, 549 AD
    Turkic Names - Apparently these were a ***** to figure out, the few listed are very likely to be Turkic
    Altyev - Kazakh - leader of Hun auxiliaries in Byzantine army, 530 AD
    Ataqam - Turkish - A Hun of noble birth, 433 AD
    Basiq - Some kind of Turkic. Didn't specify. - Hun Leader, 395 AD
    Bairika - Didn't specify
    Dangiziq (or something like that) All Turkic languages - A son of Atilla - This one Priscus heard pronounced at Atilla's court. Isn't that crazy? That I'm sitting here recounting a Hunnic chieftain name that some Byzantine Diplomat heard before dinner 2000 years ago.
    Elmingir - Tunguz
    Aruvkahn - Qaraqalpak girl's name - Atilla's wife
    Sandal - Mamluk - Ruler of Utigur, 555 AD
    Zol-bon - Mamluk - Commander of Hun auxiliaries in Byzantine army, 491 AD
    *EDIT* made the main groups bold faced
    Perhaps a mixed horde and clans,the very ruling elite of Attila seem Turkic or not Indo-European at least,also his son names like Diengizich,Ellac and Ernak.Let me add more names;
    Sinnion given Persian etimology,he was veteran of Vandal war,leader of Kutrigur Huns.Chinialon also Kutrigur,Zabergan another Kutrigur you mentioned it.I think Kutrigur is connected with personal Bulgar name "Kotrag" one of their kings.We can continue with Bulgar names as Hunnic descendants:Gostun,Bezmer,Asparukh(classified as Iranian) Tervel,Sevar,Kormisosh,Vinekh,Sabin,Telets,Umor,Ku ber,Kardam,Pagan,Telerig,Kormesiy,Batbayan,Omurtag ,Krum etc.At least some seem Indo-European.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpenjager View Post
    So, actually we have a Elite indivudal belonging to G2a2b2a1b-L497
    And a ¿non-Elite? R1b individual as I understand from the data.
    In the supplementary informations is written that for Bylany the skeletal remains are supposed to belong to noble immigrants, whereas the burnt remains to locals. So, the P312 guy was an lite Celt. Next to the burial site there was a Celt manor, so it is possible that the people buried there were the lords of that manor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpenjager View Post
    So, actually we have a Elite indivudal belonging to G2a2b2a1b-L497
    And a ¿non-Elite? R1b individual as I understand from the data.
    Even if that is the case considering that Hallstatt begin with outside influence this is not surprise. Likely the Iron age begin in Koban from where with "Thraco Cimmerian" culture spread in Hallstatt and Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Thanks, Pax! That's all I needed!

    So Hallstatt Celts are most similar to modern South Germans, French and South English (and presumably also Belgians who plot right in the middle of these three populations but aren't listed).

    The list of haplogroups from GEDMatch is great. I wonder why the authors of the paper didn't bother to list the deep clades in the supplementary information. That's not professional at all on their part.
    Looks pretty similar to the French and German component from 23andme, however I suspect that the Hallstatt-like admix in the Southern Benelux sort of area isn't mostly directly Hallstatt, but just very similar (broadly "purer" Celtic admix, like with the Insular Celts, plus some Neolithic Central European admix).

    The only place that seems to be truly the descendents of the Hallstatt culture, perhaps even significantly "pure", is in Alemannic areas, ESPECIALLY around Basel (it's that red haired area in NW Switzerland on your red hair map), which is actually redder than Eastern England which is very weird to me.

    My paternal line (I1) probably (! - though it definitely is not from conversion/whatever within the last few hundred years as it would have shown up autosomally) comes from one of these guys during the original Ashkenazi settlement in the Rhineland, which is cool to me, as I have massive admiration for the cultural achievements of (mostly) Southern Germanics, so there's that.

    I wonder how much post-Hallstatt and la Tene Germanic admixture there really is in Switzerland in particular...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Looks pretty similar to the French and German component from 23andme, however I suspect that the Hallstatt-like admix in the Southern Benelux sort of area isn't mostly directly Hallstatt, but just very similar (broadly "purer" Celtic admix, like with the Insular Celts, plus some Neolithic Central European admix).
    The only place that seems to be truly the descendents of the Hallstatt culture, perhaps even significantly "pure", is in Alemannic areas, ESPECIALLY around Basel (it's that red haired area in NW Switzerland on your red hair map), which is actually redder than Eastern England which is very weird to me.
    My paternal line (I1) probably (! - though it definitely is not from conversion/whatever within the last few hundred years as it would have shown up autosomally) comes from one of these guys during the original Ashkenazi settlement in the Rhineland, which is cool to me, as I have massive admiration for the cultural achievements of (mostly) Southern Germanics, so there's that.
    I wonder how much post-Hallstatt and la Tene Germanic admixture there really is in Switzerland in particular...
    Germanic ?...you mean gallic-celts ..........I do not recall any germanic people south of the danube ( unless mercenaries) before or during the Roman period.
    celts control central and south germany in the bronze and early iron ages with their capital mostly likely near frankfurt
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glauberg.
    .
    another important town was
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heuneburg

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