137 ancient human genomes from across the Eurasian steppes

if I understand well the Damgaard counterdicts the recent Laziridis paper on the subject of the ASI cline formed in IVC

Laziridis describes ASI cline as AASI + Iranian Farmer + West Siberian HG,
while Damgaard says IVC period in India is AASI + Namazga CA, and Namazga CA as Iranian farmer + EHG (and absence of CHG)

I noticed this too, one paper mentions Namazga as an early source of "west Eurasian" ancestry, but it seems like the other paper makes it clear they actually introduced EHG ancestry with them. Despite this I think Namazga CA is just a proxy for an Iran Neo rich population since Damgaard didn't have other samples from the Turan or Indus to explain this ancestry in South Asians. Iran_Neo probably entered South Asia as early as Mehrgarh so Namazga CA is way too young to have been the primary source of this ancestry.

If the rest of the BMAC didn't contribute to the genetic legacy of South Asia I highly doubt Namazga CA did, but then again it's possible the canals at Shortugai were inspired by Namazga technology and Namazga is known to have traded with the IVC and introduced certain millets to them. That being said I really don't think Namazga CA had any large contribution to modern South Asians, they might be picking up on ancestry basal to Namazga from the Jeitun culture or earlier, the same cultures that were interacting with Mehrgarh and probably had Iran Neo ancestry without any EHG.
 
I noticed this too, one paper mentions Namazga as an early source of "west Eurasian" ancestry, but it seems like the other paper makes it clear they actually introduced EHG ancestry with them. Despite this I think Namazga CA is just a proxy for an Iran Neo rich population since Damgaard didn't have other samples from the Turan or Indus to explain this ancestry in South Asians. Iran_Neo probably entered South Asia as early as Mehrgarh so Namazga CA is way too young to have been the primary source of this ancestry.

If the rest of the BMAC didn't contribute to the genetic legacy of South Asia I highly doubt Namazga CA did, but then again it's possible the canals at Shortugai were inspired by Namazga technology and Namazga is known to have traded with the IVC and introduced certain millets to them. That being said I really don't think Namazga CA had any large contribution to modern South Asians, they might be picking up on ancestry basal to Namazga from the Jeitun culture or earlier, the same cultures that were interacting with Mehrgarh and probably had Iran Neo ancestry without any EHG.

I agree, the IVC population was the result of local HG + many immigrations of Iranian herders since 9 ka.
Yet I'm surprised there is also some EHG in it, albeit non-steppe CA/EBA.

And yes, IVC is way older than both BMAC and Namazga CA, so both can only be proxies, nothing more.
 
if I understand well the Damgaard counterdicts the recent Laziridis paper on the subject of the ASI cline formed in IVC
Laziridis describes ASI cline as AASI + Iranian Farmer + West Siberian HG,
while Damgaard says IVC period in India is AASI + Namazga CA, and Namazga CA as Iranian farmer + EHG (and absence of CHG)

I wonder how a model like Iranian Neolithic + EHG + East Asian would work..
 
It must have had something to do with how they trained the horse, or else it's hard to reason with. Perhaps they used their legs more to manipulate them.

more soupleness on the horse, more possiblity to hide on one side of it before reappearing and shouting or striking?
Only hypothesis. I'm not found of horses, only on pictures!
 
Just a general observation: all these scholars papers use different basic reference elements for their admixtures, even when they keep the name, the basis is not completely defined the same way: boring!
 
Yeah I'm fine with your stirrup theory. And cranial deformation evidence. All good.
Most of these tribes by this time had some East Asian and Siberian admixture along with some Turkic speakers. They were mostly Iranian in the West and increasingly East Asian in the East as we moved into the Middle Ages. Of course the Iranians were the original gangsters. We all know that.
The issue with the Huns is that they were entirely illiterate but we have a ton of names from correspondences with Romans using Roman scribes on both sides.
They were very much a confederation with a bunch of Germanic tribes joining them, so there is of course a bunch of German names but we don't care about those.
Below are the most likely classifications
Iranian Names

something-manos - Iranian - "Massaget" spear man in the Byzantine army, 540 AD
Ama-bazuka - Old Iranian - Hun Chieftain in the Caucasus, 500 AD
Balas - Persian - Commander of six hundred Massaget auxiliaries, all mounted archers, in Belisarius' army in 533 AD
Xorz-aman - Ossetic - "Massaget" bodyguard of Belisarius
Xorz-amond - Ossetic - "Massaget" bodyguard of Belisarius
Sturak - Persian (the Roman scribes had actually changed his name to the Greek Styrax because it sounded better to them) - Caucasian Hun Leader, led the war with Glones against the Sabir, 500 AD
Glones - Persian (Grecized) - Caucasian Hun Leader, led the war with Sturak against the Sabir, 500 AD
Zabergan - Persian - Leader of the Kutrigur Huns, 555 AD
Zarmihr - Persian - "Massaget" in the Byzantine Army, 549 AD
Turkic Names - Apparently these were a ***** to figure out, the few listed are very likely to be Turkic
Altyev - Kazakh - leader of Hun auxiliaries in Byzantine army, 530 AD
Ataqam - Turkish - A Hun of noble birth, 433 AD
Basiq - Some kind of Turkic. Didn't specify. - Hun Leader, 395 AD
Bairika - Didn't specify
Dangiziq (or something like that) All Turkic languages - A son of Atilla - This one Priscus heard pronounced at Atilla's court. Isn't that crazy? That I'm sitting here recounting a Hunnic chieftain name that some Byzantine Diplomat heard before dinner 2000 years ago.
Elmingir - Tunguz
Aruvkahn - Qaraqalpak girl's name - Atilla's wife
Sandal - Mamluk - Ruler of Utigur, 555 AD
Zol-bon - Mamluk - Commander of Hun auxiliaries in Byzantine army, 491 AD
*EDIT* made the main groups bold faced
Perhaps a mixed horde and clans,the very ruling elite of Attila seem Turkic or not Indo-European at least,also his son names like Diengizich,Ellac and Ernak.Let me add more names;
Sinnion given Persian etimology,he was veteran of Vandal war,leader of Kutrigur Huns.Chinialon also Kutrigur,Zabergan another Kutrigur you mentioned it.I think Kutrigur is connected with personal Bulgar name "Kotrag" one of their kings.We can continue with Bulgar names as Hunnic descendants:Gostun,Bezmer,Asparukh(classified as Iranian) Tervel,Sevar,Kormisosh,Vinekh,Sabin,Telets,Umor,Kuber,Kardam,Pagan,Telerig,Kormesiy,Batbayan,Omurtag,Krum etc.At least some seem Indo-European.
 
So, actually we have a Elite indivudal belonging to G2a2b2a1b-L497
And a ¿non-Elite? R1b individual as I understand from the data.

In the supplementary informations is written that for Bylany the skeletal remains are supposed to belong to noble immigrants, whereas the burnt remains to locals. So, the P312 guy was an ?lite Celt. Next to the burial site there was a Celt manor, so it is possible that the people buried there were the lords of that manor.
 
So, actually we have a Elite indivudal belonging to G2a2b2a1b-L497
And a ¿non-Elite? R1b individual as I understand from the data.
Even if that is the case considering that Hallstatt begin with outside influence this is not surprise. Likely the Iron age begin in Koban from where with "Thraco Cimmerian" culture spread in Hallstatt and Europe.
 
Thanks, Pax! That's all I needed!

So Hallstatt Celts are most similar to modern South Germans, French and South English (and presumably also Belgians who plot right in the middle of these three populations but aren't listed).

The list of haplogroups from GEDMatch is great. I wonder why the authors of the paper didn't bother to list the deep clades in the supplementary information. That's not professional at all on their part.

Looks pretty similar to the French and German component from 23andme, however I suspect that the Hallstatt-like admix in the Southern Benelux sort of area isn't mostly directly Hallstatt, but just very similar (broadly "purer" Celtic admix, like with the Insular Celts, plus some Neolithic Central European admix).

The only place that seems to be truly the descendents of the Hallstatt culture, perhaps even significantly "pure", is in Alemannic areas, ESPECIALLY around Basel (it's that red haired area in NW Switzerland on your red hair map), which is actually redder than Eastern England which is very weird to me.

My paternal line (I1) probably (! - though it definitely is not from conversion/whatever within the last few hundred years as it would have shown up autosomally) comes from one of these guys during the original Ashkenazi settlement in the Rhineland, which is cool to me, as I have massive admiration for the cultural achievements of (mostly) Southern Germanics, so there's that.

I wonder how much post-Hallstatt and la Tene Germanic admixture there really is in Switzerland in particular...
 
Looks pretty similar to the French and German component from 23andme, however I suspect that the Hallstatt-like admix in the Southern Benelux sort of area isn't mostly directly Hallstatt, but just very similar (broadly "purer" Celtic admix, like with the Insular Celts, plus some Neolithic Central European admix).
The only place that seems to be truly the descendents of the Hallstatt culture, perhaps even significantly "pure", is in Alemannic areas, ESPECIALLY around Basel (it's that red haired area in NW Switzerland on your red hair map), which is actually redder than Eastern England which is very weird to me.
My paternal line (I1) probably (! - though it definitely is not from conversion/whatever within the last few hundred years as it would have shown up autosomally) comes from one of these guys during the original Ashkenazi settlement in the Rhineland, which is cool to me, as I have massive admiration for the cultural achievements of (mostly) Southern Germanics, so there's that.
I wonder how much post-Hallstatt and la Tene Germanic admixture there really is in Switzerland in particular...
Germanic ?...you mean gallic-celts ..........I do not recall any germanic people south of the danube ( unless mercenaries) before or during the Roman period.
celts control central and south germany in the bronze and early iron ages with their capital mostly likely near frankfurt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glauberg.
.
another important town was
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heuneburg
 
Well, for anyone interested in using the Damgard et al samples, you might want to consider this comment posted by Kurd:

"Notice to anyone using the Damgaard samples or other aDNA samples. There are many samples with coverage issues, and many which are complete outliers to the populations they are identified with.

Whether you are a blogger, researcher, or hobbyist, it’s IMPERATIVE that you take a couple of days to identify and remove those problem samples the datasets, otherwise analysis can get screwed (results not making sense) up whether using f3s, f4s, qpAdm, or ADMIXTURE, by those problem samples.

I have myself spent the past few days doing just that, and have removed dozens of samples with the goal of having the most accurate dataset out there BEFORE starting analysis.


Edit: qpAdm is extremely tricky to use (Patterson will be the 1st to tell you that). Results greatly vary based on the selection of rt pops. Even I’m not very comfortable in using it. Thus no one should rely solely on qpAdm to reach any conclusions. F3s and f4s are much safer to use and base conclusions on."
 
We don't care of your opinion, the study literally says that Huns were most likely of Turkic origin.
 
We don't care of your opinion, the study literally says that Huns were most likely of Turkic origin.

I dont't know to whom your answer is adressed, but what a pleasant tone!
 
It is so irritating that these samples are not working with WGSextract.

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB20658

Does anyone have a way to process them into raw data, or have gedmatch kit numbers? Specifically for DA197?

edit: I found this from searching online, courtesy of Tomenable:

DA194 Hungary Scythian - kit number GB8615749
DA195 Hungary Scythian - kit number GN2826307
DA197 Hungary Scythian - kit number UM3393611
DA198 Hungary Scythian - kit number SK9891773
 
It is so irritating that these samples are not working with WGSextract.

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB20658

Does anyone have a way to process them into raw data, or have gedmatch kit numbers? Specifically for DA197?

edit: I found this from searching online, courtesy of Tomenable:

DA194 Hungary Scythian - kit number GB8615749
DA195 Hungary Scythian - kit number GN2826307
DA197 Hungary Scythian - kit number UM3393611
DA198 Hungary Scythian - kit number SK9891773


ged match says for DA197

#Population (source)Distance
1Austrian6.68
2East_German7.97
3Hungarian8.34
4Serbian9.66
5West_German10.52
6Croatian
11.29



Are they scythian or getae-thracians ?.................seems too early to be scythian
 
ged match says for DA197

#Population (source)Distance
1Austrian6.68
2East_German7.97
3Hungarian8.34
4Serbian9.66
5West_German10.52
6Croatian11.29



Are they scythian or getae-thracians ?.................seems too early to be scythian

I have to dig up the supplement, I don't think it was for this specific study, but there was another that used this specific sample.
 

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