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Thread: My proposed tree of Indo-European languages

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    That's possible, but how do you account for the Celtic Y-DNA in Greece then? Or is it all Roman? (possible as the two are closely linked)
    Honestly I had not paid that much attention to the explanation of Celtic DNA in Greece because I just assumed its mainly from the Celtic invasions of the 3rd century BC. I just read the part about R1b-S28 more carefully and I agree on the Italo-Gallic split and the Hallstatt culture, but I still think the Celtic DNA in Greece is mostly from these later migrations.

    If you compare the map of R1b-S28 to the maps of the Celtic invasions of the 3-6 centuries BC, first you can see that the Celtic tribes that migrated were concentrated in the south of France (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galati...Tectosages.jpg), where this haplogroup is widespread, and second, a striking similarity especially in eastern Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galati..._Expansion.svg). Note the lack of R1b-S28 in the central-northern Balkans and especially the perfect match of R1b-S28 in Turkey with old Galatia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Honestly I had not paid that much attention to the explanation of Celtic DNA in Greece because I just assumed its mainly from the Celtic invasions of the 3rd century BC. I just read the part about R1b-S28 more carefully and I agree on the Italo-Gallic split and the Hallstatt culture, but I still think the Celtic DNA in Greece is mostly from these later migrations.

    If you compare the map of R1b-S28 to the maps of the Celtic invasions of the 3-6 centuries BC, first you can see that the Celtic tribes that migrated were concentrated in the south of France (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galati...Tectosages.jpg), where this haplogroup is widespread, and second, a striking similarity especially in eastern Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galati..._Expansion.svg). Note the lack of R1b-S28 in the central-northern Balkans and especially the perfect match of R1b-S28 in Turkey with old Galatia.
    There is annoying little data for deep clades of any haplogroup from Greece. But the FTDNA project shows that the R1b-P312 that could be Celtic are concentrated in central Greece between Athens and Corfu. In fact, almost all the samples from Central Greece are R1b-P312, including one L2 in Athens and another one in Chalkida. There is also a DF27 in Epirus. This corresponds more or less to the region that the Celts invaded (Thermopylae, Delphi). But since the Celts were defeated and ousted from Greece, it is hard to believe that the majority of paternal lineages in that region today descend from that ill-fated Celtic invasion that only lasted a few weeks or months.

    The Dorians are said to have come from Epirus, Macedonia and northern Greece, so it's equally possible that many settled in central Greece on their journey south. There is a lot of R1b-M269 in the southern Peloponnese and a bit in Crete, including an R1b-L2 member on this forum who isn't on the FTDNA Project. Unfortunately there is very little info on the R1b clades in the Peloponnese. That could have settled the matter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    There is annoying little data for deep clades of any haplogroup from Greece. But the FTDNA project shows that the R1b-P312 that could be Celtic are concentrated in central Greece between Athens and Corfu. In fact, almost all the samples from Central Greece are R1b-P312, including one L2 in Athens and another one in Chalkida. There is also a DF27 in Epirus. This corresponds more or less to the region that the Celts invaded (Thermopylae, Delphi). But since the Celts were defeated and ousted from Greece, it is hard to believe that the majority of paternal lineages in that region today descend from that ill-fated Celtic invasion that only lasted a few weeks or months.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-FtDNA-samples

    I've got some information on greece in that topic, and I can delve deeper if you're interested in certain subclades. Greece appears to have the highest percentage of L23 in Europe, though it's unclear when it arrived.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    There is annoying little data for deep clades of any haplogroup from Greece. But the FTDNA project shows that the R1b-P312 that could be Celtic are concentrated in central Greece between Athens and Corfu. In fact, almost all the samples from Central Greece are R1b-P312, including one L2 in Athens and another one in Chalkida. There is also a DF27 in Epirus. This corresponds more or less to the region that the Celts invaded (Thermopylae, Delphi). But since the Celts were defeated and ousted from Greece, it is hard to believe that the majority of paternal lineages in that region today descend from that ill-fated Celtic invasion that only lasted a few weeks or months.

    The Dorians are said to have come from Epirus, Macedonia and northern Greece, so it's equally possible that many settled in central Greece on their journey south. There is a lot of R1b-M269 in the southern Peloponnese and a bit in Crete, including an R1b-L2 member on this forum who isn't on the FTDNA Project. Unfortunately there is very little info on the R1b clades in the Peloponnese. That could have settled the matter.

    I might be wrong but I thought there was only a fraction of Y-DNA in that part of Greece that belongs to R1b-S28. If it's actually a majority then maybe a more substantial migration was responsible. The invasions lasted for a few years though. And even if they were defeated at Delphi, the Celts won at Thermopylae so they probably ravaged the countryside.

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    Some R1b subclades in Greece can be from people who moved here after 1204.
    (4th crusade related)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zanatis View Post

    As for the Germanic haplogroup, it seems that they're mostly Norman so I don't believe they had much of an impact on the language.

    On the other hand, we also need higher resolution results for R1a to be able to call it all Slavic. It might very well be all Slavic, but the recent results of our member Dibran here made rethink about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Don't forget that the Goths brought different clades of R1a from assimilated Slavic tribes in Poland and Western Ukraine than the ones that came a few centuries later with the South Slavs.
    Probably the case with me. My case even has a Albanian founder effect, so far TMRCA of 1200ypb(with me and my match not the clade). I am even testing the rest of the novels as we speak to refine it. My relation with all other L1029 seems to be between 300BC-0AD. My cluster is basal belonging to L1029-B-Western which has the highest occurrence in Germany and Poland, including highest diversity in these areas. Idk how well tested they are, but even Southern Sweden which has practically no L1029, has more diversity than elsewhere. They also seem to belong to B-Western. L1029 experienced a big depopulation. As I understand, it formed around 1400BC. Though the oldest TMRCA seems to be between 2000-2300ypb for all modern carriers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Albanians have mixed South Slavic ancestry, of course, as it is the South Slavs that spread over all the Balkans. What's your point?
    I meant a region within Albania where R1a and I2a peaks and that region is South-Eastern Albania. The other regions have below 5% of these haplogroups.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Are you saying that the Germanic haplogroups among Albanians are of Norman origin? AFAIK Albanian I1 is mostly Z63, which is typical of places settled by the Goths. There is also some I1-P109 as elsewhere in the Balkans, and although this branch is more widely Scandinavian and was found among the Vikings and Normans, it could also be Gothic or Varangian, not necessarily Norman.
    You're right and you would know better, it's the recently tested Albanians that are coming up as possibly Norman according to the Albanian project that confused me. Nevermind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Don't forget that the Goths brought different clades of R1a from assimilated Slavic tribes in Poland and Western Ukraine than the ones that came a few centuries later with the South Slavs.
    I don't know about Poland having been already Slavic at that time but the fact that Goths could have brought Slavic R1a is highly probable and completely logical, and similarly the distribution of I2a could have been caused or brought by Goths too and to me this makes more sense since I'm linking them to a Latin speaking Balkan population.

    Not to mention that the distribution of I2a doesn't fit the Slavic migration at all with ratios of I2a:R1a in Bosnian Croats 7:1, Serbs 2:1, Montenegro 4:1, Croatia 1,5:1, Macedonia 2:1, then we have Kosovo 1:2, Albania 1:1, Bulgaria 1:1, Greece 1:1, Aegean Greeks 1:3 and very interestingly Hungary 1:2 despite being adjacent to Serbia and Bosnia.

    In my point of view R1a is spread more or less evenly and its distribution is explainable, where Northern Greece has more R1a than Bosnia, Bulgaria, Macedonia, and twice more than Montenegro, and that still makes sense, but you cannot say the same for I2a where the chances of a founder effect specifically in Western Balkans and specifically in mountainous settlements is next to impossible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zanatis View Post
    I meant a region within Albania where R1a and I2a peaks and that region is South-Eastern Albania. The other regions have below 5% of these haplogroups.


    You're right and you would know better, it's the recently tested Albanians that are coming up as possibly Norman according to the Albanian project that confused me. Nevermind.


    I don't know about Poland having been already Slavic at that time but the fact that Goths could have brought Slavic R1a is highly probable and completely logical, and similarly the distribution of I2a could have been caused or brought by Goths too and to me this makes more sense since I'm linking them to a Latin speaking Balkan population.

    Not to mention that the distribution of I2a doesn't fit the Slavic migration at all with ratios of I2a:R1a in Bosnian Croats 7:1, Serbs 2:1, Montenegro 4:1, Croatia 1,5:1, Macedonia 2:1, then we have Kosovo 1:2, Albania 1:1, Bulgaria 1:1, Greece 1:1, Aegean Greeks 1:3 and very interestingly Hungary 1:2 despite being adjacent to Serbia and Bosnia.

    In my point of view R1a is spread more or less evenly and its distribution is explainable, where Northern Greece has more R1a than Bosnia, Bulgaria, Macedonia, and twice more than Montenegro, and that still makes sense, but you cannot say the same for I2a where the chances of a founder effect specifically in Western Balkans and specifically in mountainous settlements is next to impossible.
    I thought you meant that I2a moved into the western Balkans before R1a. Now it seems you're saying it's been there all along. Are you? Because if so, you have to take into account it's higher diversity further north and east.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Expredel View Post
    It doesn't quite explain why Tocharian isn't within a centum branch, unless you assume IE started out as centum, with satem emerging later.
    This is exactly what mainstream IE linguistics consider most likely: IE started out as "centum" or, more specifically, with a centum-like distinction in its stop consonants, and later some dialects began to spread the satem phonetic development. Few linguists these days consider that centum languages are one coherent group of proto-languages necessarily more related between themselves than to satem proto-languages. What's usually proposed these days is that centum vs. satem was just one of the many possible outcomes derived from the original distinction between plain vs. palatalized or possibly plain vs. ejective stop consonants in PIE. Some of them went one way, some went the other way, and we can even speculate that those changes involved areal features and mutual influences and so on, but they do not necessarily reflect a common origin, a sort of Centum PIE vs. Satem PIE. In the case of satem in particular, palatalization and eventual fricativization are actually two of the most usual, commonplace evolutions that can happen in languages. They happened in all sorts of distinct language families, not just IE, and similar developments happened even in modern languages like Old French and modern Brazilian Portuguese.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zanatis View Post
    I meant a region within Albania where R1a and I2a peaks and that region is South-Eastern Albania. The other regions have below 5% of these haplogroups.


    You're right and you would know better, it's the recently tested Albanians that are coming up as possibly Norman according to the Albanian project that confused me. Nevermind.


    I don't know about Poland having been already Slavic at that time but the fact that Goths could have brought Slavic R1a is highly probable and completely logical, and similarly the distribution of I2a could have been caused or brought by Goths too and to me this makes more sense since I'm linking them to a Latin speaking Balkan population.

    Not to mention that the distribution of I2a doesn't fit the Slavic migration at all with ratios of I2a:R1a in Bosnian Croats 7:1, Serbs 2:1, Montenegro 4:1, Croatia 1,5:1, Macedonia 2:1, then we have Kosovo 1:2, Albania 1:1, Bulgaria 1:1, Greece 1:1, Aegean Greeks 1:3 and very interestingly Hungary 1:2 despite being adjacent to Serbia and Bosnia.

    In my point of view R1a is spread more or less evenly and its distribution is explainable, where Northern Greece has more R1a than Bosnia, Bulgaria, Macedonia, and twice more than Montenegro, and that still makes sense, but you cannot say the same for I2a where the chances of a founder effect specifically in Western Balkans and specifically in mountainous settlements is next to impossible.

    There only seems to be one cluster of I2a1b-Din at present that predated the majority of South Slavic I2a1b-Din. In the case of this cluster, a Goth or Bastarnae could explain it. However this cluster so far is rare, and only present in Greeks and Jews with TMRCA of 2200ypb. Most I2a1b-Din in the Balkans is very young. If I am not mistaken they belong to clades 1500ypb. Majority of Serbian and Bosnian I2a1b-Din seems to stem from PH908. Specifically further downstream clades with a TMRCA of 900-1100ypb. Very young. Based on the current data, I am willing to bet this theoretical "Greek" Cluster of I2-Din is the one that arrived before Slavs. For all we know, Albanian I2-Din could belong to a similar cluster, as I read somewhere Jews had a significant presence in the south at one time.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    A combination of these two hypotheses could very well explain how Goidelic remained closer to P-Celtic. Trade with Britain and Brittany may have gradually brought a re-convergence of Goidelic toward P-Celtic.

    I suppose that when you talk about Goidelic you are referring to medieval to modern Goidelic, as there was no written source in the Iron Age, let alone the Bronze Age. If that's the case, then the influence of Lat Tène tribes (like the Menapians) would already have altered Goidelic, even without taking into account the gradual re-convergence that would have happened through trade with other Celtic parts of Europe during the Late Bronze (e.g. Atlantic Bronze Age) and Iron Age.
    Yes, that makes sense. As for the dating of the Goidelic language I'm referring to, I'm mostly referring to the most well attested period of it, the medieval Old Irish, but also, partly, to the earlier and apparently at least partially "fossilized" Primitive Irish, which is significantly distinct from the later Old Irish despite only a few centuries separating them, which is to some linguists suggestive of Primitive Irish being something of a formal, erudite version of the Goidelic language, probably preserving more archaic forms (more or less like Classical Latin vs. Vulgar Latin) as opposed to the eventual acceptance of more vernacular, "contemporary" forms of the language in the Old Irish period. Primitive Irish looks much closer to the continental (mostly P-Celtic) Celtic languages and in some ways still extremely similar to languages like Gaulish, which is why some linguists can't grasp the possibility of a very early divergence of Goidelic from the rest of the Celtic languages. I think the truth must lay somewhere in between your hypothesis and mine, probably some kind of language re-convergence or hybridization originally involving two similar languages which still had partial mutual intelligibility, effectively creating a seemingly "new" Celtic language out of a Para-Celtic language stratum.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Yes, that makes sense. As for the dating of the Goidelic language I'm referring to, I'm mostly referring to the most well attested period of it, the medieval Old Irish, but also, partly, to the earlier and apparently at least partially "fossilized" Primitive Irish, which is significantly distinct from the later Old Irish despite only a few centuries separating them, which is to some linguists suggestive of Primitive Irish being something of a formal, erudite version of the Goidelic language, probably preserving more archaic forms (more or less like Classical Latin vs. Vulgar Latin) as opposed to the eventual acceptance of more vernacular, "contemporary" forms of the language in the Old Irish period. Primitive Irish looks much closer to the continental (mostly P-Celtic) Celtic languages and in some ways still extremely similar to languages like Gaulish, which is why some linguists can't grasp the possibility of a very early divergence of Goidelic from the rest of the Celtic languages. I think the truth must lay somewhere in between your hypothesis and mine, probably some kind of language re-convergence or hybridization originally involving two similar languages which still had partial mutual intelligibility, effectively creating a seemingly "new" Celtic language out of a Para-Celtic language stratum.
    All Insular Celts (R1b-L21) spoke Q-Celtic languages originally, and P-Celtic probably started replacing Q-Celtic in Britain when the Hallstatt migrants arrived c. 500 BCE, followed by Belgic tribes in the first century BCE. As you explained it yourself, Q-Celtic speakers could easily have adopted the new Gaulish dialect and turned it into Brythonic if the continental Celts enjoyed a higher cultural prestige. The same thing happened when Latin replaced (quite easily) Celtic languages in northern Italy, Gaul, Iberia and Britain owing to its higher prestige. This can happen quickly when languages are relatively close to one another (same family). That is also how Arabic came to replace other Semitic languages in the southern Middle East and North Africa (e.g. Coptic Egyptian and Berber).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expredel View Post
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-FtDNA-samples

    I've got some information on greece in that topic, and I can delve deeper if you're interested in certain subclades. Greece appears to have the highest percentage of L23 in Europe, though it's unclear when it arrived.
    R1b-L23/Z2103 surely came with the Mycenaean Greeks, but could also have come from Trojans, Luwians, Lydians and Lycians in western Anatolia, especially when these became Hellenicised and the populations merged during the Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman empires.

    According to your table, about 65% of the R1b in Greece (among those who tested for subclades) are L23/Z2103 and the rest if mostly Celtic P312 (25%) with a bit of Germanic U106 (5%) and Near Eastern V88 (5%). In absolute frequencies this translates as 10% of R1b-L23/Z2103 and 4% of R1b-P312 in average for the whole of Greece, but a few percents more in South Greece (Peloponnese) where R1b is the highest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    I might be wrong but I thought there was only a fraction of Y-DNA in that part of Greece that belongs to R1b-S28. If it's actually a majority then maybe a more substantial migration was responsible. The invasions lasted for a few years though. And even if they were defeated at Delphi, the Celts won at Thermopylae so they probably ravaged the countryside.
    Central Greece has the lowest percentage of R1b (10%) of any Greek region, but based on the few FTDNA samples (probably not representative) almost all of it is Celtic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    I thought you meant that I2a moved into the western Balkans before R1a. Now it seems you're saying it's been there all along. Are you? Because if so, you have to take into account it's higher diversity further north and east.
    Well I'm not really claiming anything but simply checking with more knowledgeable members if this theory could be considered too because almost everyone has decided to call it Slavic, brought by the Slavs, spread by the Slavs, exclusively Slavic. But that in itself it's still just a theory and IMO not a very complete one.

    It would make it more difficult if we use modern regional borders (like the Balkans) but I'd say centered around the Carpathians and radiating in all the nearby regions only, since it's a young clade. So it makes no difference if it was first in modern Ukraine or Romania/Moldova since those regions weren't inhabited by Slavs in antiquity.

    That said, looking at its distribution it makes more sense that it was first the earlier barbarians that pushed I2a further South and West rather than having been absorbed first by R1a migrations from further North and spread around in the same time as R1a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    All Insular Celts (R1b-L21) spoke Q-Celtic languages originally, and P-Celtic probably started replacing Q-Celtic in Britain when the Hallstatt migrants arrived c. 500 BCE, followed by Belgic tribes in the first century BCE. As you explained it yourself, Q-Celtic speakers could easily have adopted the new Gaulish dialect and turned it into Brythonic if the continental Celts enjoyed a higher cultural prestige. The same thing happened when Latin replaced (quite easily) Celtic languages in northern Italy, Gaul, Iberia and Britain owing to its higher prestige. This can happen quickly when languages are relatively close to one another (same family). That is also how Arabic came to replace other Semitic languages in the southern Middle East and North Africa (e.g. Coptic Egyptian and Berber).
    According to your tree Italic is a Celtic language? So maybe people viewed it as adopting a new dialect, merely a matter of convenience when dealing with traders.

    Rather than viewing continental Celtic as a single language, it should probably be viewed as a language family, as without a nation state it would have fragmented into a thousand different dialects.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post

    The Tocharian branch is in all likelihood descended from the Afanasievo culture (3300-2500 BCE), a Steppe culture in the Altai region that is contemporary to Yamna (3500-2500 BCE), but started a few centuries later.
    But the tarim mummie's were found to be R1a, weren't they? As well as being closer to andronovo than either yamnaya or afanasievo, according to Allentoft 2015 that is.

    You don't think the tarim mummies were the speakers of tocharian maybe? There's almost 2000 years between the cherchen man and other mummies, and the tocharian manuscripts. Or is there something I'm missing? :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    There only seems to be one cluster of I2a1b-Din at present that predated the majority of South Slavic I2a1b-Din. In the case of this cluster, a Goth or Bastarnae could explain it. However this cluster so far is rare, and only present in Greeks and Jews with TMRCA of 2200ypb. Most I2a1b-Din in the Balkans is very young. If I am not mistaken they belong to clades 1500ypb. Majority of Serbian and Bosnian I2a1b-Din seems to stem from PH908. Specifically further downstream clades with a TMRCA of 900-1100ypb. Very young. Based on the current data, I am willing to bet this theoretical "Greek" Cluster of I2-Din is the one that arrived before Slavs. For all we know, Albanian I2-Din could belong to a similar cluster, as I read somewhere Jews had a significant presence in the south at one time.

    The I2a1b-Din Albanians that have tested so far are I2a-Din-south iirc and not from this clade, I saw that Dinaric-South belongs to the PH908 cluster
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    The I2a1b-Din Albanians that have tested so far are I2a-Din-south iirc and not from this clade, I saw that Dinaric-South belongs to the PH908 cluster
    Ok I see. Do the Albanian samples on Bloodlines all belong to PH908? Or are some of them low resolution?

    I was initially predicted YP515 until I got tested, which is a completely different clade.

    Are all the I2-Din Albanians higher resolution?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Ok I see. Do the Albanian samples on Bloodlines all belong to PH908? Or are some of them low resolution?

    I was initially predicted YP515 until I got tested, which is a completely different clade.

    Are all the I2-Din Albanians higher resolution?
    I don't think so. Many of them (I've seen two cases) that are simply I-M423 having Sardinian matches but of course here they are counted as Slavic DNA because you know, "it makes more sense" since one of them is from Montenegro.

    Your case was the same and your R1a was counted as Slavic so who knows how many like you there are out there but Maciamo confidently claims that 21% of the Y-DNA of Albanians is Slavic when the majority of regions have less than 5% R1a and I2a (no matter the subclade).

    I think the best we can do is rely on individual tests rather than previous studies from Tirana.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zanatis View Post
    I don't think so. Many of them (I've seen two cases) that are simply I-M423 having Sardinian matches but of course here they are counted as Slavic DNA because you know, "it makes more sense" since one of them is from Montenegro.

    Your case was the same and your R1a was counted as Slavic so who knows how many like you there are out there but Maciamo confidently claims that 21% of the Y-DNA of Albanians is Slavic when the majority of regions have less than 5% R1a and I2a (no matter the subclade).

    I think the best we can do is rely on individual tests rather than previous studies from Tirana.
    Alot of conjecture sadly goes into this stuff. There literally no ancient YDNA for M458 yet(early middle ages or iron age). It is mostly Slavic I am sure. Maybe in my case too. Serious scientists however are not historians. Nor do they make strong claims without evidence. One sample even isnt conclusive. I question that given the scarce data for my cluster. Could have been a Germanized Proto-Slav. Or even a Avarized/Bulgarized-Slav(Avar elite in Poland that were recently discovered came close to poles genetically).

    But as you say, its easier to pass basic generalizations than to look at each case with care.

    I was predicted YP515 which is not at all what ended up being the case. They were right about predicting the Albanian founder effect. Just didn't know where under M458 exactly. The irony is my basal clade has not even been found in any Slavs yet(they are further downstream in the B Western Cluster). Even my founder effect only has an Albanian(whose been on the border near my place of origin for over 400 years). Verbjan to be exact. His ancestors moved their from Luma supposedly 4-500 years ago.

    Varangians could be possible to. After all people forget, they were turned into a sort of recruitment corps. Men from the British Isles, up to Russia and the Balts enlisted. Only the early Varangians Guard were entirely of Scandinavian stock. Theres so many scenarios that are ignored because its popular to paint things with a broad brush.

    I agree my line is Proto-Slavic in the "Meta" sense. It makes the most sense given the data. However many Proto-Slavs were assimilated by East Germanic tribes. So theres no certainty my clades ancestor actually spoke Slavic when he arrived in the Balkans, despite his line(Or even arrived with the Sclavenoi). It is conjecture on all sides(myself included). But my hypothesis actually has some weight to it given theres no South Slavs in my branch and that most M458 in south Slavs is overwhelmingly B-Eastern(YP417 and subclades) and YP515. M458 for instance only reaches 4 percent in Serbia lol. If a South Slav pops up upstream my clade it would be a probability that it arrived with Slavs and joined Albanian clans. Even my STR and SNP matches are closer to German/Norwegian/Finnish/ and one Sardinian sample, than they are to South Slavs. Only 2 Bulgarians and 1 Croatian show up in my SNP matchs. My closest SNP match is the Sardinian.

    Could have been due to Vandals in his case, or a Albanian or Greek that came with Byzantines from the mainland etc.

    B-Western makes up only 20 percent of Bulgarian M458 which has a 60/40 ratio of M458/Z280. Couple that with the rest of the haplogroups, my cluster is not that high in their country. But, as far as Balkans goes, my cluster is most dominant in Bulgaria/Romania/Macedonia/Greece. Me and my match seem to be the first Albanian cases with our founder clade so far TMRCA 800AD. The last 8 novels are being tested so that could be refined up or down. Initially Trojet predicted the range is likely between 1000-1600ypb for the founder effect.

    Also as you say, Albanians are very under-tested. L1029 was only discovered in 2012. Thus far my cluster is most Diverse and common in Germany and Poland. Take Sweden which has negligible amounts of L1029. They belong entirely to B-Western and have more diversity in the little they have than the Balkans does. Unless theres other data to the contrary. But this is the most up to date info: http://blog.vayda.pl/en/haplogroup-r...2-2018-14-new/
    Last edited by Dibran; 17-05-18 at 00:44.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Ok I see. Do the Albanian samples on Bloodlines all belong to PH908? Or are some of them low resolution?

    I was initially predicted YP515 until I got tested, which is a completely different clade.

    Are all the I2-Din Albanians higher resolution?
    I just checked, I think some are under PH098/Dinaric-South going by the STRs although the others are under some clade of Y3120 which is common among South Slavs and the father clade of PH098 and other clades. Trojet would know better than me though if all are PH098 or just some. Going by what I can see some are PH098 although all are under Y3120

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    I just checked, I think some are under PH098/Dinaric-South going by the STRs although the others are under some clade of Y3120 which is common among South Slavs and the father clade of PH098 and other clades. Trojet would know better than me though if all are PH098 or just some. Going by what I can see some are PH098 although all are under Y3120

    Ok thanks for clarification. The way I understand it. If a clade is predicted wrong its usually still close to the actual assignment. So YP515 is next to L1029, so even though it was wrong it was close on the tree to be somewhere in the right direction. So I imagine if they are predicted PH908, even if incorrect, they should still test positive for S17250 or another clade under it. Which would rule out A2512 in this case. But, of course, Albanians still remain under-tested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Greek would have started as Mycenaean Greek...It supposedly evolved to Doric Greek after the mysterious Dorians moved in after 1200 BCE. I believe that the Dorians could have been related to Hallstatt Celts as they came from the North and their name sounds very Celtic (Dorian is a Gaulish given name that still survives in French to this day). If the had come straight from the Steppe like the Mycenaeans, Doric Greek would be a satem language.
    Basically everything in this part is wrong from start to finish. You should read something on the Greek dialects and their interrelation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizla View Post
    But the tarim mummie's were found to be R1a, weren't they? As well as being closer to andronovo than either yamnaya or afanasievo, according to Allentoft 2015 that is.

    You don't think the tarim mummies were the speakers of tocharian maybe? There's almost 2000 years between the cherchen man and other mummies, and the tocharian manuscripts. Or is there something I'm missing? :)
    There are many Tarim mummies from different periods. The ones that were tested date from the Scythian period and were R1a. Modern Uyghurs have both R1b-L23 and R1a-Z93, and yet the Scythians hardly had any R1b (at least not as much proportionally as the Uyghurs), so it's likely that another, earlier migration brought R1b to the Tarim basin.

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