Where did the Anatolian branch of Indo-European originate?

[halfalp]

Can the genetics of modern Anatolian Turks tell us something about the Anatolian speakers ? what I see is that they have more CHG and are shifted towards the Caucasus with respect to Anatolia BA, and they also have slightly more EHG, if that EHG is from the Bronze Age, why did the BA samples lack it ? well someone would say only elites had it, but the problem is that all Anatolian turks today have it, do they all descend from the elites ?

It would be interesting to know how much EHG are turkish tribes from western russia and maybe iran like the Qashqai and Azeris to know if Turkish tribes were sensibly EHG shifted to give it to modern day Turks.

[MOESAN]

I remember in 2015 before the first Yamnaya sample of history, the theory was pretty made, Maciamo had this following, Yamnaya would be R1a and R1b coming from south caucasus at the time of Maikop. Everybody on Eupedia pretty much accepted the hypothesis, i didn't even question it for myself, it made sense, and there was nothing offensive or bad about R1b coming from south caucasus. Then Yamnaya samples arrived and turnes out R1b, everything had to be rethink and something broke at this point here. Pretty much at the same point or a little bit earlier Underhill and others have postulate that R1a and R1b had to come from south caucasus because of the modern geographic distribution of the basal forms of those lineage and all the shit happenned, a likely war between two camp happenned and between then it's the same biased views towards north or south.

Just to say I always preferred a North Caucasus origin for the concerned Y-R1b spite without being sure, of course; I don't take the older SNP's and the so used "biggest variance" of STR's as a proof of the place of origin of downstream SNP's bearers; because old forms say us only that a region received (when precisely?) them at some stage of history, in a relatively limited number, and that the the descendants were not numerous enough to favor a lot of new mutations at the SNP's level; at least we can infer without any proof that the presence of these old SNP's is old in this very region, so that the main groups of bearers of the ancient SNP's passed not too far; but spite close enough, this region is not by force the cradle of the expansion which give the numerous later downstream SNP's.

[halfalp]

Just to say I always preferred a North Caucasus origin for the concerned Y-R1b spite without being sure, of course; I don't take the older SNP's and the so used "biggest variance" of STR's as a proof of the place of origin of downstream SNP's bearers; because old forms say us only that a region received (when precisely?) them at some stage of history, in a relatively limited number, and that the the descendants were not numerous enough to favor a lot of new mutations at the SNP's level; at least we can infer without any proof that the presence of these old SNP's is old in this very region, so that the main groups of bearers of the ancient SNP's passed not too far; but spite close enough, this region is not by force the cradle of the expansion which give the numerous later downstream SNP's.

I'm not sure to really understand your point, but you are talking about the fact that some basal form of R1b are found in Anatolia and South of Caucasus in general ? From Wikipedia, 70% of Socotri males from Socotra Island in the Arabian Sea are basal J*, but we know that ancient J people probably came from somewhere near the south of the Caucasus mountains. Very rare basal forms of haplogroup can have a very weird genetic distributions like for exemple R1a-YP1272 that the only few modern people having are from Bielorussia and Tunisia ( like wtf??? ). What is the ancient link between Bielorussia and Tunisia, absolutely no idea, but it is what it is.

[IronSide]

Nobody likes what I'm saying in Anthrogenica

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post417833

[Angela]

Nobody likes what I'm saying in Anthrogenica
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post417833

There doesn't seem to be a single person left there who has an open mind about anything. It's also being taken over by t-rolls who have their sock puppets debate each other. :) It would be funny if it weren't pathetic. I wouldn't waste my time if I were you.

I'm not saying the Out of the Balkans hypothesis is necessarily incorrect; I'm just saying that looking at it the way they do it's unfalsifiable. For people like this, it has moved into the realm, as you said, of belief, not academic debate.

Until there's some data somewhere that gives us some assurance of what happened I'll stay an agnostic.

[Ygorcs]

Can the genetics of modern Anatolian Turks tell us something about the Anatolian speakers ? what I see is that they have more CHG and are shifted towards the Caucasus with respect to Anatolia BA, and they also have slightly more EHG, if that EHG is from the Bronze Age, why did the BA samples lack it ? well someone would say only elites had it, but the problem is that all Anatolian turks today have it, do they all descend from the elites ?

Isn't it just as likely that that extra EHG came during the Iron Age and afterwards with Cimmerians, Galatians, Scythians, northern Iranians and even much later the steppe Turks that stationed in Central Asia for some time before migrating into Anatolia?

[Cpluskx]

I wonder how Hittites imposed their language in Anatolia if their population were too small and they didn't mix with the natives.

[Alan]

did the new C14 dates of the central/south Asian paper come out ?

How did Davidski @eurogenes explain the Hajji Fairuz R1b ? he claimed that the C14 dating must be wrong and the archaeological context is definitely not Chalcolithic but bronze age, without proof, and then went on to use his Global25/nMonte and produced Steppe results.

all Iran Chalcolithic samples (seh gabi, hajji fairuz, tepe hissar) contain additional EHG that was not present in Iran Neolithic, we know that since Lazaridis et al (2016), the paper's qpAdm modelling did produce that for all samples not just the R1b guy, and it was quite minor, 4% and 5% in Hajji Fairuz, which is expected for the Chalcolithic .. and most importantly, the R1b wasn't an outlier, he was genetically similar to Chalcolithic individuals nearby.

As you said that is not real EHG ancestry from the Steppes since it was even found in low amounts in the mesolithic Huto sample. He knows that perfectly fine but something called agenda is sometimes blockading his brain from common sense. And about these admixture calculators. Trust me if he wants and tries hard enough he will show you " Steppe" admixture in as far as East Africa.

[Alan]

Can the genetics of modern Anatolian Turks tell us something about the Anatolian speakers ? what I see is that they have more CHG and are shifted towards the Caucasus with respect to Anatolia BA, and they also have slightly more EHG, if that EHG is from the Bronze Age, why did the BA samples lack it ? well someone would say only elites had it, but the problem is that all Anatolian turks today have it, do they all descend from the elites ?

That Elite nonsense is one of the last straws hardcore Steppists are trying to hold on, while historically and archeologically it makes no sense, since there wasn't any Elite vs peasant structure among Hittites/Hattis based on the "ethnic origin" rather than status. And it didn't matter if you were Hittite or Hatti to be of high status. Also Even if we assume it was only a Hittite Elite we know as a fact that the Elite always leaves behind some genetic traces even among the commong folks.

[epoch]

As you said that is not real EHG ancestry from the Steppes since it was even found in low amounts in the mesolithic Huto sample. He knows that perfectly fine but something called agenda is sometimes blockading his brain from common sense. And about these admixture calculators. Trust me if he wants and tries hard enough he will show you " Steppe" admixture in as far as East Africa.

did the new C14 dates of the central/south Asian paper come out ?

How did Davidski @eurogenes explain the Hajji Fairuz R1b ? he claimed that the C14 dating must be wrong and the archaeological context is definitely not Chalcolithic but bronze age, without proof, and then went on to use his Global25/nMonte and produced Steppe results.

all Iran Chalcolithic samples (seh gabi, hajji fairuz, tepe hissar) contain additional EHG that was not present in Iran Neolithic, we know that since Lazaridis et al (2016), the paper's qpAdm modelling did produce that for all samples not just the R1b guy, and it was quite minor, 4% and 5% in Hajji Fairuz, which is expected for the Chalcolithic .. and most importantly, the R1b wasn't an outlier, he was genetically similar to Chalcolithic individuals nearby.

P	Prop1	Prop2	Prop3	Err1	Err2	Err3	Source1	Source2	Source3
0.03	0.52	0.48	NA	0.02	0.02	NA	Ganj_Dareh_N	Anatolia_N	NA
0.90	0.07	0.61	0.32	0.02	0.04	0.06	Iron_Gates_HG	Ganj_Dareh_N	Anatolia_N
0.62	0.04	0.51	0.45	0.01	0.02	0.03	Karelia_HG	Ganj_Dareh_N	Anatolia_N
0.58	0.47	0.48	0.05	0.03	0.02	0.02	Ganj_Dareh_N	Anatolia_N	West_Siberia_N

these are for Hajji Fairuz samples, the other locations are also modelled in the paper having extremely small amounts of EHG.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/0...ions-into.html

and this is from the comment section:



How much more EHG do modern Iranians have ? is it the same levels as in the Chalcolithic ?

Then we'll do it with formal stats:

D(Mbuti, EHG; Hajji_Firuz_ChL_outlier, Hajji_Firuz_ChL) = -0.0151 -3.737 460845

[epoch]

That Elite nonsense is one of the last straws hardcore Steppists are trying to hold on, while historically and archeologically it makes no sense, since there wasn't any Elite vs peasant structure among Hittites/Hattis based on the "ethnic origin" rather than status.

Last straw?

Why and where did Hittites adopt cremation? Where in the adjacent areas can we find cremation, sometimes combined with typical steppe burials in one tumulus?

And what do we know about the steppe admixture of that area?

And it didn't matter if you were Hittite or Hatti to be of high status.

Indeed. It is even known that early kings adopted to bypass natural sons. So even if we find not a trace of steppe in an elite burial the steppe hypothesis isn't falsified. Because it is to be expected from what we know of Hittite history that we'll find such results if the steppe hypothesis is true.

Also Even if we assume it was only a Hittite Elite we know as a fact that the Elite always leaves behind some genetic traces even among the commong folks.

No. We know for a fact that isn't the case as Johannes Krause found no admixture whatsoever in the Abusir mummies up until the late Roman period and that was after roughly 700 years of Greek elites ruling Egypt, which then harboured one of the most famous Graecophone cities ever know: Alexandria.

“for 1,300 years, we see complete genetic continuity.”

[Ailchu]

Can the genetics of modern Anatolian Turks tell us something about the Anatolian speakers ? what I see is that they have more CHG and are shifted towards the Caucasus with respect to Anatolia BA, and they also have slightly more EHG, if that EHG is from the Bronze Age, why did the BA samples lack it ? well someone would say only elites had it, but the problem is that all Anatolian turks today have it, do they all descend from the elites ?

maybe it came recently? during the roman, greek, ottoman empire maybe. there were many europeans who migrated to anatolia after the ottomens were pushed back too. and lets not forget the slave trade. there were millions of people imported from southern russia alone.
how much EHG did the turks have who conquered anatolia? if they brought 6-10% east asian but were not 100% east asian themselves but maybe only 50% their genetic contribution would have been quite big so if they had more EHG than anatolians it could also have an effect.

[Alan]

Then we'll do it with formal stats:

D(Mbuti, EHG; Hajji_Firuz_ChL_outlier, Hajji_Firuz_ChL) = -0.0151 -3.737 460845

You don't get it. This "EHG" admixture is found even in mesolithic Iran-Huto samples. And yes you can even manipulate formal stats. Try using Chalcolthic-Mesolithic or Calcolthic Caucasus samples and see how they fit in.

Thats like claiming melons from Anatolia are from Kazakhstan because there are melons in Kazakhstan too while there are the same melons found in Anatolia since thousands of years.

[Alan]

Last straw?

Why and where did Hittites adopt cremation? Where in the adjacent areas can we find cremation,

Aha so cremation is something typical Steppe therefore Yamnaya has abslutely zero to do with it. Tell me more.

sometimes combined with typical steppe burials in one tumulus?

How many freakn times have I already explained you in these threads that what you call "typical Steppe burials" are found since thousands of years in the Caucasus. Not only that they are contemporaneous to the earliest burials on the Steppes, they are also believed to predate them by few centuries. Doesn't matter how many times bolden out "for a fact" you absolutely speak no facts here. And I am honestly tired repeating myself like a broken recorder just because you either don't know or don't care much about real archeology/hisotry.

The earliest kurgans date to the 4th millennium BC in the Caucasus^[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan

Among the sites associated with this culture, the Soyugbulagkurgans or barrows are of special importance.^[3] The excavation of these kurgans, located in Kaspi Municipality, in central Georgia, demonstrated an unexpectedly early date of such structures on the territory of Azerbaijan. They were dated to the beginning of the 4th millennium BC.^[4

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyla-Tepe_culture

The point is, there is no need for "Steppe" to explain the burials.

You still keep repeating over and over against the same debunked "arguments".

[epoch]

Aha so cremation is something typical Steppe therefore Yamnaya has abslutely zero to do with it. Tell me more.

Ah. You didn't read it.

How many freakn times have I already explained you in these threads that what you call "typical Steppe burials" are found since thousands of years in the Caucasus. Not only that they are contemporaneous to the earliest burials on the Steppes, they are also believed to predate them by few centuries.

However, if you start reading literature, you'll find similar burials dated 4400 BC in Suvorovo, and contemporary (3900 BC) small barrows start to appear in Sredni Stog.

Doesn't matter how many times bolden out "for a fact" you absolutely speak no facts here. And I am honestly tired repeating myself like a broken recorder just because you either don't know or don't care much about real archeology/hisotry.

You state that Elite, and I'll quote you, "always leaves behind some genetic traces even among the common folks". So I point that we have at least one clear example where that is not the case. Hence it counters your argument, which clearly stated the word always. See? Argument debunked.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyla-Tepe_culture

The point is, there is no need for "Steppe" to explain the burials.

You still keep repeating over and over against the same debunked "arguments".

You haven't debunked them, you ignore them. You ignore the problem that a route from Leyla Tepe to Anatolia presents: A sudden appearance of cremation. Whereas a route through the Balkans will present two possibilities: Ezero, proven to have steppe by Mathieson, or Bulgarian Yamnaya, idem dito, both showing gradual change to cremation.

Lastly, read the Caucasus paper. How are the odds that Leyla-Tepe will be packed with R1b and/or R1a? If not, the best possible option for it to be a source of PIE is female mediated language transfer to a highly patriarchical culture, without showing a substrate of those fathers original tongue. The chances for that are really slim.

And considering the fact that the Calcolithic Caucasian samples from that paper show that they can't be the source of the CHG already in the Calcolithic steppe samples from that same paper, the chances that Leyla Tepe even actually is the source of CHG in steppe aren't very large.

[epoch]

You don't get it. This "EHG" admixture is found even in mesolithic Iran-Huto samples. And yes you can even manipulate formal stats. Try using Chalcolthic-Mesolithic or Calcolthic Caucasus samples and see how they fit in.

Thats like claiming melons from Anatolia are from Kazakhstan because there are melons in Kazakhstan too while there are the same melons found in Anatolia since thousands of years.

No. You appear to not get it. The R1b sample shows extra EHG admixture when compared to Hajji Firuz Chalcolithic samples.

[epoch]

For those interested:

https://www.persee.fr/doc/mom_2259-4..._act_58_1_3470

First signs of barrows on the North Pontic Steppe start around 3900 BC. Earlier steppe burials sometimes were in natural hills.

[etrusco]

For those interested:

https://www.persee.fr/doc/mom_2259-4..._act_58_1_3470

First signs of barrows on the North Pontic Steppe start around 3900 BC. Earlier steppe burials sometimes were in natural hills.

So basically another proof that steppe cultural "ethnogenesis" was nurtured by farmers from CT.....as I always predicted....now that we have also the genetic input of farmers into Yamnaya itself.....Manzura's smile.

[MOESAN]

I'm not sure to really understand your point, but you are talking about the fact that some basal form of R1b are found in Anatolia and South of Caucasus in general ? From Wikipedia, 70% of Socotri males from Socotra Island in the Arabian Sea are basal J*, but we know that ancient J people probably came from somewhere near the south of the Caucasus mountains. Very rare basal forms of haplogroup can have a very weird genetic distributions like for exemple R1a-YP1272 that the only few modern people having are from Bielorussia and Tunisia ( like wtf??? ). What is the ancient link between Bielorussia and Tunisia, absolutely no idea, but it is what it is.

It's a general statement not linked to this only thread but yes, I spoke about South Caucasus and my aim was to say that a current pop which presents haplo's stayed under old forms is not by force and everytime the source pop of other pops presenting derived haplo's, and as a whole presenting far more numerous downstream haplo's than the supposed source pop.
harmonious chain of downstream SNP's among modern pops (when ancient DNA lacks of course) is a better basis to determine the track(s) taken by the source pop in its expansion(s). Same problem with L51 in Southwest Europe and the dychotomy between Southern and Northern Italy SNP's for Y-R1b. I consider the bulk of the down-L23 (-> L51) in Europe took the Central and Northern Europe routes, when only a less numerous group took a Southern (coastal?) route.
Of course, ancient DNA will resolve the question and maybe falsify my thoughts...
Concerning the present thread, I consider we need more data, and sure data in ancient Anatolia.

[MOESAN]

So basically another proof that steppe cultural "ethnogenesis" was nurtured by farmers from CT.....as I always predicted....now that we have also the genetic input of farmers into Yamnaya itself.....Manzura's smile.

Etrusco, have you new studies concerning Yamnaya DNA making and the weight of EEF or ANF in it? I thought Yamna people had concerning southern elements a rather CHGlike element, where we could have to distinguish between old CHG and CHGlike Iranian farmers elements? That said, CTC had surely some input into Sredny Stog and later Steppes cultures (their cattle too) but the Steppes metallurgy seems owing to South Caucasus.

[etrusco]

Etrusco, have you new studies concerning Yamnaya DNA making and the weight of EEF or ANF in it? I thought Yamna people had concerning southern elements a rather CHGlike element, where we could have to distinguish between old CHG and CHGlike Iranian farmers elements? That said, CTC had surely some input into Sredny Stog and later Steppes cultures (their cattle too) but the Steppes metallurgy seems owing to South Caucasus.

More or less ( so far) the EE+WHG component in Yamnaya is 15%. The rest is EHG + CHG like component but I wonder if the latter at the end will turn out to EEF+WHG too. We'll see what happens!

[Angela]

More or less ( so far) the EE+WHG component in Yamnaya is 15%. The rest is EHG + CHG like component but I wonder if the latter at the end will turn out to EEF+WHG too. We'll see what happens!

How could someone mistake CHG for a combination of EEF and WHG?

CHG is very different from EEF, even with some WHG added. The similarity of CHG is with Iran Neo, not EEF.

Plus, it is steppe people from the eastern part of the steppe who have 40-50% CHG. I see nothing in the archaeology of the movement of the farmers from Europe onto the steppe which would account for such huge percentages that far east.

The fact that there was some genetic intrusion of EEF onto the steppe, which we can document, and certainly some cultural impact from "Old Europe" onto the steppe doesn't mean that's the only source. Culturally, for example, bronze metallurgy came from south of the Caucasus, as did other cultural innovations.

One of the admirable things about the steppe people is that they were able to assimilate technology and other cultural influences from many areas.

[etrusco]

How could someone mistake CHG for a combination of EEF and WHG?


The fact that there was some genetic intrusion of EEF onto the steppe, which we can document, and certainly some cultural impact from "Old Europe" onto the steppe doesn't mean that's the only source. Culturally, for example, bronze metallurgy came from south of the Caucasus, as did other cultural innovations.

One of the admirable things about the steppe people is that they were able to assimilate technology and other cultural influences from many areas.

yes it should be obvious that EEF and CHG are very different but since I always red on blog from experts that Steppe Yamnaya was a combination of 60% EHG and 40% CHG then why they confused EEF with CHG....hence my question about the chance of it being an even bigger mistake. As for metallurgical stuff I think that the main influence is from the Carpath-balkan metallurgical complex.

[berun]

The fact that there was some genetic intrusion of EEF onto the steppe, which we can document, and certainly some cultural impact from "Old Europe" onto the steppe doesn't mean that's the only source. Culturally, for example, bronze metallurgy came from south of the Caucasus, as did other cultural innovations.

But elite languages can replace indigenous languages, so speaking about this "some" EEF "recently discovered" contribution is creating even more mess about the IE urheimat. Even more, as more kurgans I see the more I figure out that it would be the product of megalithic people in a region without big rocks. But well, I'm not with Sir Renfrew.

[etrusco]

But elite languages can replace indigenous languages, so speaking about this "some" EEF "recently discovered" contribution is creating even more mess about the IE urheimat. Even more, as more kurgans I see the more I figure out that it would be the product of megalithic people in a region without big rocks. But well, I'm not with Sir Renfrew.

I could have written your post myself....I agree 100% above all in the fact that kurgan are a distant imitation of atalantic ( spain portugal, france) megalithism. In this culture we can find the raising of the WHG signal among the EEF post-cardial farmers that matches exactly the western input into Yamanaya ( in sredni stog the EEF +WHG is even higher).....the tide is turning?