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Thread: Where did the Anatolian branch of Indo-European originate?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    It's a posdibility that archaeologists involved in such area might take into account, but also it's true that some have pointed an expansion of Maykop or Leilatepe kurganists... typology could tell more as the western rocky kurgans are older than those in the Caucasus.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...latepe_culture
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    yes it should be obvious that EEF and CHG are very different but since I always red on blog from experts that Steppe Yamnaya was a combination of 60% EHG and 40% CHG then why they confused EEF with CHG....hence my question about the chance of it being an even bigger mistake. As for metallurgical stuff I think that the main influence is from the Carpath-balkan metallurgical complex.
    I said "bronze" metallurgy, not copper.


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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    I could have written your post myself....I agree 100% above all in the fact that kurgan are a distant imitation of atalantic ( spain portugal, france) megalithism. In this culture we can find the raising of the WHG signal among the EEF post-cardial farmers that matches exactly the western input into Yamanaya ( in sredni stog the EEF +WHG is even higher).....the tide is turning?
    If Megalithism is associated with a "comeback" increase of WHG into EEF (EEF = ANF + more or less WHG), and it is supposed now to be associated with Indo-Europeanization of the steppes, then is it really demonstrable that there was a significant WHG-rich EEF (not just any EEF signal, but one showing that sudden increase of WHG in some Late Neolithic populatons) into the steppes before the Bronze Age (because it's increasingly clear that PIE is not as late as Yamnaya)? I really don't know, that's why I'm asking it. AFAIK the EEF signal found until now in the earlier steppe samples is very minor (except a few western Sredny Stog very near to Cucuteni-Tripolye) and, more importantly, not particularly high in WHG...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    If Megalithism is associated with a "comeback" increase of WHG into EEF (EEF = ANF + more or less WHG), and it is supposed now to be associated with Indo-Europeanization of the steppes, then is it really demonstrable that there was a significant WHG-rich EEF (not just any EEF signal, but one showing that sudden increase of WHG in some Late Neolithic populatons) into the steppes before the Bronze Age (because it's increasingly clear that PIE is not as late as Yamnaya)? I really don't know, that's why I'm asking it. AFAIK the EEF signal found until now in the earlier steppe samples is very minor (except a few western Sredny Stog very near to Cucuteni-Tripolye) and, more importantly, not particularly high in WHG...
    The mixing of EEF+WHG is the genetic component from the west that is precisely found in Yamnaya....but that means that also EEF itself could be PIE.... EEF +WHG just the genetic component that IEize the steppe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    If Megalithism is associated with a "comeback" increase of WHG into EEF (EEF = ANF + more or less WHG), and it is supposed now to be associated with Indo-Europeanization of the steppes, then is it really demonstrable that there was a significant WHG-rich EEF (not just any EEF signal, but one showing that sudden increase of WHG in some Late Neolithic populatons) into the steppes before the Bronze Age (because it's increasingly clear that PIE is not as late as Yamnaya)? I really don't know, that's why I'm asking it. AFAIK the EEF signal found until now in the earlier steppe samples is very minor (except a few western Sredny Stog very near to Cucuteni-Tripolye) and, more importantly, not particularly high in WHG...
    That's exactly correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    It's a general statement not linked to this only thread but yes, I spoke about South Caucasus and my aim was to say that a current pop which presents haplo's stayed under old forms is not by force and everytime the source pop of other pops presenting derived haplo's, and as a whole presenting far more numerous downstream haplo's than the supposed source pop.
    harmonious chain of downstream SNP's among modern pops (when ancient DNA lacks of course) is a better basis to determine the track(s) taken by the source pop in its expansion(s). Same problem with L51 in Southwest Europe and the dychotomy between Southern and Northern Italy SNP's for Y-R1b. I consider the bulk of the down-L23 (-> L51) in Europe took the Central and Northern Europe routes, when only a less numerous group took a Southern (coastal?) route.
    Of course, ancient DNA will resolve the question and maybe falsify my thoughts...
    Concerning the present thread, I consider we need more data, and sure data in ancient Anatolia.
    Well i guess you are pretty much right. The best exemple is R1b-V88, all ancient R1b-V88 founds are from Europe and if some like the Spanish one sounds very neolithic like, most of theme are in an eastern / south eastern european HG or HG / Farming transition context. But how many R1b-V88 in modern eastern and south eastern europe ? We cannot take modern distribution of basal forms of an haplogroup like a " oh so R1b* is found in modern Iran, so R1b came from Iran ". Obviously the lack of SNP's in ancient samples, especially in the paleolithic like those BT* CT* wich likely just are C1a2 doesn't tell us a lot, but using modern SNP's for explaining ancient migrations patterns doesn't tell us a lot neither.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    The mixing of EEF+WHG is the genetic component from the west that is precisely found in Yamnaya....but that means that also EEF itself could be PIE.... EEF +WHG just the genetic component that IEize the steppe.
    No. IE show link with Uralic languages, and imputative influences from Caucausian languages. The EEF in Yamnaya is just via trading or kidnapped women from Balkans.

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    0 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    But elite languages can replace indigenous languages, so speaking about this "some" EEF "recently discovered" contribution is creating even more mess about the IE urheimat. Even more, as more kurgans I see the more I figure out that it would be the product of megalithic people in a region without big rocks. But well, I'm not with Sir Renfrew.
    lol Southeuropean Buthurted.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    The mixing of EEF+WHG is the genetic component from the west that is precisely found in Yamnaya....but that means that also EEF itself could be PIE.... EEF +WHG just the genetic component that IEize the steppe.
    EEF already includes WHG. EEF itself means "a lot of ANF + some WHG". The specific composition varies according to the place and origin. I think it's still way too early (and insufficient data) to associate IE with the WHG-enriched EEF of Megalithic cultures of Atlantic Europe thousands of kilometers away from the steppe. EEF (ANF+WHG) is already pretty minor in most of the Pontic-Caspian samples (including its eastern part, Khvalynsk/Yamnaya), but the frequency of WHG is even lower, virtually negligible in comparison with CHG and EHG.

    I myself doubt there was a high probability of language shift exclusively through the dominance of a tiny elite in uncivilized, tribal and clannish (thus decentralized) societies like those of the Chalcolithic Steppe, especially when you consider that typical EEF Y-DNA haplogroups aren't found there in even moderate frequency (what, a tiny but powerful elite whose males failed to leave many descendants? How likely is that?).

    Yes, EEF "could be IE", but CHG and EHG "could" too, and in fact (AFAIK) there are many more direct associations between the chronological and geographical spread of CHG and EHG admixtures and the expansion of IE than between EEF and the Indo-Europeanization of societies. Where IE appears, it is mostly CHG and - except from Anatolia until now - EHG that really rise significantly in frequency.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Govan View Post
    lol Southeuropean Buthurted.
    You never discuss the issue of the post but you are trying allways to expose my supposed failures, but as ever you even don't understand nothing, you don't know who is Renfrew even. You are trying to trollling me: go and have a life mosca collonera.

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    http://www.academia.edu/35556491/The..._to_Eneolithic

    Quote:
    We have fixed very important changes in the burial rites of the steppe population. Stretched Neolithic inhumations were replaced by flexed skeletons and some graves with groups of stones above them or burials in stone boxes. I. Manzura was right when he connected those changes with western infuence.The people of new Sredniy Stog culture,which was formed on the basis of the local Neolithic, could contrast new burial rites with old traditions (Manzura 1997). It is possible to assume that those radical changes in the burial rite, which was a part of conservative religious sphere, were connected with changes in cults. The most important innovation was the appearance of the metal working borrowed from the Balkan region. Metal working in the Prehistory was closed connected with the religious sphere of life and adoption of new technology in everyday life had to be accompanied by adoption of new cults. We can observe the consequences as changes in the burial rites. The time of formation of the Sredniy Stog culture was synchronous with the Hamangia culture and exactly its influence caused the transformation of the steppe burial rite, because flexed skeletons and using of stones were typical for this culture (Todorova 2002a, 35–




    The transition from the Neolithic to Eneolithic in the Eastern European steppe was connected with the inten-sive contacts of people of the Azov-Dnieper, Low Don, Pricaspiy, Samara, Orlovka and Sredniy Stog cultures with the Balkan population and first with the Hamangia culture. The results of these contacts were some im
    - ports: adornments from copper, cornelian, marine shells and pots in the steppe sites and plates from the bone
    and nacre, pendants from teeth of red deer in the Hamangia graves. The Hamangia infuence in the burial rites
    of the steppe population was very important and caused to use stone in graves and above them, pits with alcove,
    new adornments of burial clothes.
    The strongest impact we have fixed for the population in northern area of the
    Sea of Azov, where the radical changes in the burial rite and the formation of a new Sredniy Stog culture took place. It was connected with the adoption of new religious element.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    http://www.academia.edu/35556491/The..._to_Eneolithic

    Quote:
    We have fixed very important changes in the burial rites of the steppe population. Stretched Neolithic inhumations were replaced by flexed skeletons and some graves with groups of stones above them or burials in stone boxes. I. Manzura was right when he connected those changes with western infuence.The people of new Sredniy Stog culture,which was formed on the basis of the local Neolithic, could contrast new burial rites with old traditions (Manzura 1997). It is possible to assume that those radical changes in the burial rite, which was a part of conservative religious sphere, were connected with changes in cults. The most important innovation was the appearance of the metal working borrowed from the Balkan region. Metal working in the Prehistory was closed connected with the religious sphere of life and adoption of new technology in everyday life had to be accompanied by adoption of new cults. We can observe the consequences as changes in the burial rites. The time of formation of the Sredniy Stog culture was synchronous with the Hamangia culture and exactly its influence caused the transformation of the steppe burial rite, because flexed skeletons and using of stones were typical for this culture (Todorova 2002a, 35–




    The transition from the Neolithic to Eneolithic in the Eastern European steppe was connected with the inten-sive contacts of people of the Azov-Dnieper, Low Don, Pricaspiy, Samara, Orlovka and Sredniy Stog cultures with the Balkan population and first with the Hamangia culture. The results of these contacts were some im
    - ports: adornments from copper, cornelian, marine shells and pots in the steppe sites and plates from the bone
    and nacre, pendants from teeth of red deer in the Hamangia graves. The Hamangia infuence in the burial rites
    of the steppe population was very important and caused to use stone in graves and above them, pits with alcove,
    new adornments of burial clothes.
    The strongest impact we have fixed for the population in northern area of the
    Sea of Azov, where the radical changes in the burial rite and the formation of a new Sredniy Stog culture took place. It was connected with the adoption of new religious element.
    You're aware that a lot of scholars believe Hamangia was settled by people from Anatolia, yes?

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You're aware that a lot of scholars believe Hamangia was settled by people from Anatolia, yes?
    I was not talking about the origin of Hamangia ( anatolian origin? just as likely as an autochthonous one).....just try to remind everybody of the deep cultural influence of Old europe on the steppe cultural ethnogenesis.....every time I posted quoting Manzura on various blogs that was often met with mockery and derision.
    By the way you are aware that WHG had a deep impact in Anatolia to form the ANF?

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    I was not talking about the origin of Hamangia ( anatolian origin? just as likely as an autochthonous one).....just try to remind everybody of the deep cultural influence of Old europe on the steppe cultural ethnogenesis.....every time I posted quoting Manzura on various blogs that was often met with mockery and derision.
    By the way you are aware that WHG had a deep impact in Anatolia to form the ANF?
    I didn't say it was a certainty that Hamangia was very influenced by Anatolia, but there are certainly very good indications of it.

    No, WHG didn't have a deep impact in Anatolia. First of all, it wasn't precisely WHG, but an UHG similar to WHG, and second of all, it was a minor part of their ancestry. The technology also spread from Anatolia into Europe, not the other way around.

    These things are all well known.

    You are, however, making my point for me. You can trace parts of every culture back to other cultures. So what? It is the particulars of each separate case which must be examined as objectively as possible.

    You're talking about a very specific time and place.

    The archaeology and genetics are clear. Yes, steppe people borrowed a great deal culturally from the cultures around them, both those in "Old Europe" and those from south of the Caucasus.

    Yes, there are indications from archaeology of the movement of people from "Old Europe" onto the western steppe. However, we know from genetics that the autosomal impact was small. We also know the yline impact was small.

    The question then becomes, how likely is it that such a small movement of people, even if they were an elite group, could effectuate language change. The answer is that it's possible but rather unlikely.

    It becomes even more unlikely because the earliest reconstructed Indo-European vocabulary doesn't contain words for agriculture, and the people of Old Europe were totally dependent on it, and their ancestors, in fact, brought it to Europe.

    Given all of this, I'm not surprised that your "theory" has not been accepted by other people. Of course, that doesn't excuse any incivility that you were shown.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    You never discuss the issue of the post but you are trying allways to expose my supposed failures, but as ever you even don't understand nothing, you don't know who is Renfrew even. You are trying to trollling me: go and have a life mosca collonera.
    Berun, no, no, no.
    Govan is most welcome here. All of those that are feeling lonely at EUROGENES, tired of it being a pure ECHOChamber, are most welcome here.
    Lets just make sure there is no DAVIDSKI here to ban everyone that does affront the dominating view.
    Last edited by Olympus Mons; 24-06-18 at 00:55.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Angela your post #264 makes good points IMO; to put back facts in their places and proportions is a good thing;
    more than one survey show an increase of 'Old Europe' in far Steppes (DNA, metrics and others) but it's in fact no more 'Old Europe' but the result of LN/BA first Steppes introgressions into western Europe and kind of a "rebound" .

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Angela your post #264 makes good points IMO; to put back facts in their places and proportions is a good thing;
    more than one survey show an increase of 'Old Europe' in far Steppes (DNA, metrics and others) but it's in fact no more 'Old Europe' but the result of LN/BA first Steppes introgressions into western Europe and kind of a "rebound" .

    No this is an EEF+WHG in Yamnaya Samara.....at that time no steppe people had already entered in central western europe. This is before CWC and BBC which are 3th millennium.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Angela your post #264 makes good points IMO; to put back facts in their places and proportions is a good thing;
    more than one survey show an increase of 'Old Europe' in far Steppes (DNA, metrics and others) but it's in fact no more 'Old Europe' but the result of LN/BA first Steppes introgressions into western Europe and kind of a "rebound" .
    Exactly right. There is a tendency to forget the chronology of events and a conflation of several different time periods.

    Yes, there was a small impact early on of people from Old Europe onto the steppe. The much higher percentages stem from later periods after the intrusion by steppe people west, absorption of "Old Europe" genetic material, and then a rebound to the east.

    It's helpful when people date the admixtures and percentages by referring to specific samples with specific dates.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    http://www.academia.edu/35556491/The..._to_Eneolithic

    Quote:
    We have fixed very important changes in the burial rites of the steppe population. Stretched Neolithic inhumations were replaced by flexed skeletons and some graves with groups of stones above them or burials in stone boxes. I. Manzura was right when he connected those changes with western infuence.The people of new Sredniy Stog culture,which was formed on the basis of the local Neolithic, could contrast new burial rites with old traditions (Manzura 1997). It is possible to assume that those radical changes in the burial rite, which was a part of conservative religious sphere, were connected with changes in cults. The most important innovation was the appearance of the metal working borrowed from the Balkan region. Metal working in the Prehistory was closed connected with the religious sphere of life and adoption of new technology in everyday life had to be accompanied by adoption of new cults. We can observe the consequences as changes in the burial rites. The time of formation of the Sredniy Stog culture was synchronous with the Hamangia culture and exactly its influence caused the transformation of the steppe burial rite, because flexed skeletons and using of stones were typical for this culture (Todorova 2002a, 35–




    The transition from the Neolithic to Eneolithic in the Eastern European steppe was connected with the inten-sive contacts of people of the Azov-Dnieper, Low Don, Pricaspiy, Samara, Orlovka and Sredniy Stog cultures with the Balkan population and first with the Hamangia culture. The results of these contacts were some im
    - ports: adornments from copper, cornelian, marine shells and pots in the steppe sites and plates from the bone
    and nacre, pendants from teeth of red deer in the Hamangia graves. The Hamangia infuence in the burial rites
    of the steppe population was very important and caused to use stone in graves and above them, pits with alcove,
    new adornments of burial clothes.
    The strongest impact we have fixed for the population in northern area of the
    Sea of Azov, where the radical changes in the burial rite and the formation of a new Sredniy Stog culture took place. It was connected with the adoption of new religious element.
    I think you're speculating too vaguely. Hamangia culture in Dobruja, near Ukraine, is not the same as "Megalithic Europe", let alone the megalithic cultures spreading from Atlantic Europe, which you apparently was referring to earlier. AFAIK the genetics of the eastern Balkans even in the Late Neolithic/Copper Age had a lot to do with elements from the Pontic-Caspian steppe (CHG/EHG), Anatolia (ANF) and the Eastern Anatolia/Caucasus (CHG). Unless you want to imply that most unlikely of hypotheses which is that all of Europe and Anatolia were still speaking the same language or similar dialects even after 2500-3000 years since the Neolithic colonization of the continent...

    Also ,in the text they clearly talk only of a religious influence. Nobody denies that the steppes received western (and also southern) influence. Religions are much more abstract and fluid than languages and genes, they can be easily transmitted (did Christianization make Europeans Middle Eastern? Did the spread of the cult of Isis in Roman Italy make them Egyptian? Did the spread of Buddhism in China correlate with some considerable genetic andl linguistic Indian input?). We have no indication that that religious influence translated into a sizeable genetic contribution, much less into a new cultural and political elite in the Pontic-Caspian steppe, especially when the Steppe Y-DNA makeup is totally unlike that of the Neolithic EEF Europe, and EEF admixture is so minor in most of it (the only and very few Sredny Stog individuals with much - but still less than 1/3 - of EEF-related ancestry were those near the Dnieper, neighbors to Cucuteni-Tripolye).

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    I was not talking about the origin of Hamangia ( anatolian origin? just as likely as an autochthonous one).....just try to remind everybody of the deep cultural influence of Old europe on the steppe cultural ethnogenesis.....every time I posted quoting Manzura on various blogs that was often met with mockery and derision.
    By the way you are aware that WHG had a deep impact in Anatolia to form the ANF?
    You're mixing the chronology all over. "WHG", which was in fact a minor contribution from an UHG source closely related to WHG, contributed to form ANF maaaany thousands of yars before this supposed "Old Europe PIE" being transferred to the steppes. Even if it were "real WHG" contributing to ANF still in the Mesolithic, by the time we're talking about here (Copper Age/Early Bronze Age) that fact would have virtually no relevance to the linguistic question that is being discussed here. Even if somehow (very improbably) the WHG-like UHG had prevailed in Anatolia, you can be sure that the language family spoken by Late Neolithic ANF or EEF wouldn't be even recognizably related to that spoken by remnants of WHG in the same period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    No this is an EEF+WHG in Yamnaya Samara.....at that time no steppe people had already entered in central western europe. This is before CWC and BBC which are 3th millennium.
    Incorrect. They had entered Old Europe since the Late Neolithic in the Balkans, especially its central/eastern area. Vinca Culture samples in the Balkans already show steppe-derived ancestry. The fact that there was EEF (as I already told you, WHG is absorbed by EEF already) in Yamnaya Samara doesn't mean there was no steppe genetic contribution in the Balkans, because if the steppe EHG/CHG ancestry got back to the steppes it would of course be simply added to the local steppe ancestry, only EEF becoming distinguishable. Besides, by the time of Yamnaya the incursions of steppe peoples into Southeastern Europe (with Yamnaya and even before it) had already started centuries earlier.

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    @Ygorcs

    it is moesan that mentioned in his post that steppe had already entered western europe....he said clearly western europe now in your reply you mention southeastern europe....I did not mention that region. So it is off the mark. No steppe in western europe till BBC.
    Also I did not confuse the megalith stuff with Hamangia. I was only talking of different stages of european farms influence on the steppe: the cultural one: religion , burial custom ( earlier) and the genetic input ( later ). The farmer component that we find in central and south central asia ( andronovo, sintashta, srubnaya, ) is a consequence of a back migration of corded ware from eastern central europe after another mixing with the farmers independently of the one that happened in south eastern europe before.

    Also your example of diffusion of religion is a good one if you talk about historical times and relationship between strongly structured culture Rome, Egypt, China India. Of course in "historical" time religion and language often do not match ( with the notable exception of islam ) Here we are talking about prehistory and the formative stage of the cultural ethnogenesis of the steppe. We are not talking about the relationship between Israel and Rome. Different age, different dynamics. So the religious influence from the west at that time with the steppe in its formative age was more likely to have triggered a language shift.

    For the WHG Anatolia stuff....your reaction is psycho-like. Again ......did I mention the IE problem? Did I say that WHG in Anatolia created a PIE? Did I say that?

    The first farmers, with a focus on Anatolia on populationgenomics.blog

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    When it came to actually looking at the ancestral breakdown of Anatolians, Lazaridis et al. (2016) came up with a very solid model where Anatolians were a mix of lineages related to Ganj Dareh, Levant Neolithic, and WHG, with mixture proportions of 0.387, 0.339, and 0.274, respectively.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    ...and the genetic input ( later ). The farmer component that we find in central and south central asia ( andronovo, sintashta, srubnaya, ) is a consequence of a back migration of corded ware from eastern central europe after another mixing with the farmers independently of the one that happened in south eastern europe before.
    That historic period (Andronovo, Srubnaya etc.) is way too late to account for the appearance and expansion of PIE. When PIE probably first started to expand as a still undifferentiated common language (Copper Age), the genetic movement was much more from the steppes to the Balkans, Central-North Europe and Central Asia than from elsewhere into it. We already know EEF is found in only tiny proportions in most of the steppes until well into the Bronze Age, and the Y-DNA of Old Europe farmers is virtually absent (what, a language shift by elite dominance with no significant male input from the foreign elite men? Very unlikely), and that CHG was already present in very high proportion in the steppes by the early Chalcolithic (circa 4300 BC). Again you seem to be mixing different chronologies upside down.

    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    For the WHG Anatolia stuff....your reaction is psycho-like. Again ......did I mention the IE problem? Did I say that WHG in Anatolia created a PIE? Did I say that?
    Psycho-like? What do you mean? No, never mind, I'll just say that you'd better avoid using offensive terms like that again except if you are strongly provoked. Otherwise next time you'll get an infraction. Keep calm and choose your words better.

    You mentioned WHG-enriched EEF of Megalithic Europe could've been the source of PIE and the IEization of the steppes. You also mentioned WHG contributed to ANF. All of that is not demonstrated or factually wrong. Those are the facts until now. You seem to be getting too angered by the simple fact that your hypothesis lies on very thin and unstable ground and doesn't fit in well with what we all know from ancient DNA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    No this is an EEF+WHG in Yamnaya Samara.....at that time no steppe people had already entered in central western europe. This is before CWC and BBC which are 3th millennium.
    Sincerely you 're intriguing me. Could you cite me the part of the scientific work where these " tastes" (or "huge dosis") of WHG+EEF, linked between them or not, appear? Because I'm not aware; it's true that I read less quickly than others.
    By the way, it seems you ignore (?) that some thoeries speak of three intrusions of Steppic people in Europe, the first as soon as 4200 BCE, South Carpathians-Balkans, along Danube/Danau until Hungary, and North the Carpathians; introgression without too much demic input it's true; another around 3300 BCE, more important and which, supposedly, reached Germany, Poland, Central Europe-Balkans and Macedonia, with some incursions into Western Anatolia; it's true too that the demic input of these Steppic people can be discussed and debated... were they true IE speakers all of them? Could be debated too... but it seems they came from Steppes for a part.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    it is moesan that mentioned in his post that steppe had already entered western europe....he said clearly western europe now in your reply you mention southeastern europe....I did not mention that region. So it is off the mark. No steppe in western europe till BBC.
    Also I did not confuse the megalith stuff with Hamangia. I was only talking of different stages of european farms influence on the steppe: the cultural one: religion , burial custom ( earlier) and the genetic input ( later ). The farmer component that we find in central and south central asia ( andronovo, sintashta, srubnaya, ) is a consequence of a back migration of corded ware from eastern central europe after another mixing with the farmers independently of the one that happened in south eastern europe before.
    I see, I missed the specific word "western" in Moesan's post, but in any case I wonder why you both - not just in these latter posts - made mentions to Western Europe or even Central Europe. If hypothetically PIE or IE culture came mostly from EEF people of Old Europe, it's almost certain that it would've come from Southeastern/Eastern Europe, not Megalithic Western Europe, Central Europe or whatever. If an EEF >> Steppe route must be found, it is there, not in Western or Central Europe. What's most probable, though, is that the "Steppe expansion" apparently started during the Late Neolithic (e.g. Vinca), and the bulk of its genetic makeup was more or less defined by the Copper Age. No big EEF input until then east of the Dniester.

    Besides, the PIE vocabulary doesn't point to any heavily agricultural society, as Angela already pointed out. And despite all evidences of cultural influences on the steppe, the fact remains that there was a very clear cultural and genetic boundary separating EEF Old Europe from the mainly EHG+CHG cultures of the Pontic-Caspian steppe. Their Y-DNA and even much of their Mt-DNA makeup were not alike.

    It's weird that people who supposedly adopted the same language and most of the same culture of their EEF neighbors to the west (Balkans/Carpathians) kept themselves very distinctive for thousands of years until they were the ones invading them, not the other way around.

    What I found difficult to accept is that there was a lot of native and Caucasian elements in the Pontic-Caspian cultures of the historic period when PIE apparently expanded, and at least since the Copper Age one sees a lot of EHG (40-50%), a lot of CHG (40-50% too) everywhere... but then one finds a much smaller proportion of EEF here and there, most of it appearing only from the early Bronze Age onwards, and immediately cries "Eureka! Never mind the 40-50% for EHG and CHG, never mind the linguistic evidences of PIE and the probable ancient relations to Uralic and Caucasian language families: the EEF of Old Europe are the true source of PIE and its associated culture!" It sounds like there is some wishful thinking or bias in that position. It is not that it is impossible or totally implausible that EEF was the ultimate, first source of PIE, but it's way way down in the list of possibilities.

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