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Thread: Where did the Anatolian branch of Indo-European originate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    I need time to look better, but discussing if BA Anatolian samples were locals or true Hittites is losing time if IA Anatolian has truly 0 steppe watermark.
    No there's Steppe in Iron Age



    And wait, hold the phone. There appears to be some steppe in one of the MLBA Anatolian samples. Hmmmm.

    Please everyone don't jump down my throat. I'm not claiming there's steppe, but what do we make of this? I've bracketed what looks like some steppe in one or two of the samples.



    Below are the steppe samples. The ...._EBA are Yamnaya/Afanasievo




    Here's the whole run again.



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    1 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    So, finally the absurd steppes hypothesis is burried. David Reich, the Max Planck institute and other renowned institutes now support the PIE-homeland south of the Caucasus. The absurd theory that primitive Steppe pastoralists passed the Balkans to Anatolia and lead to the much more advanced Hittite and other IE cultures in Anatolia is dead, especially seeing now that even early Hittite samples do not show any steppes related ancestry. I can't understand people after such burying facts, first Hajji Firuz pre-BA and now this, that ignorant people still hold to their phantasms of riding R1 nomads who expand their "virus" to the whole world.

    The Iron Age samples have no relevance, since they are from a time when the Hittite civilization was destroyed by Semites and what not. At one point Steppes related ancestry indeed entered the Near East, but that was relatively "recent".

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry View Post
    So, finally the absurd steppes hypothesis is burried. David Reich, the Max Planck institute and other renowned institutes now support the PIE-homeland south of the Caucasus. The absurd theory that primitive Steppe pastoralists passed the Balkans to Anatolia and lead to the much more advanced Hittite and other IE cultures in Anatolia is dead, especially seeing now that even early Hittite samples do not show any steppes related ancestry. I can't understand people after such burying facts, first Hajji Firuz pre-BA and now this, that ignorant people still hold to their phantasms of riding R1 nomads who expand their "virus" to the whole world.

    The Iron Age samples have no relevance, since they are from a time when the Hittite civilization was destroyed by Semites and what not. At one point Steppes related ancestry indeed entered the Near East, but that was relatively "recent".
    Steppe people weren't primitive, they were a very creative culture.

    R1 nomads spreading their virus ? dude, you're an R1.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    There is Caucasian admixture on the Steppe well before any evidence of contact with the Caucuses. It increased at the beginning of the Bronze Age, but every population in the Old World began to admix significantly as we moved toward the Bronze Age. This fact combined with the unassailable continuity of the material culture on the steppe through the Bronze Age leaves me unconvinced that this increase in Caucasian signals a linguistic shift. It's possible, but it's less likely in comparison to known examples..
    As for the South Caucasus hypothesis, I don't think they're necessarily (or even at all) proposing anything related to the Bronze Age, about which you talk about the cultural continuity in the steppes. The CHG admixture seems to have increased significantly in the Mid-Late Neolithic/Chalcolithic, and there was profound economic and cultural transformations in that period roughly between 5000 and 3500 BCE.

    Also, if Anatolian split first and the non-Anatolian IE developed with all its peculiar characteristics in the steppes, then we're certainly talking about a linguistic shift, probably coupled with cultural and genetic ones, around 4000 BC or even earlier. That first IE expansion would not have been a Bronze Age phenomenon.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    As for the South Caucasus hypothesis, I don't think they're necessarily (or even at all) proposing anything related to the Bronze Age, about which you talk about the cultural continuity in the steppes. The CHG admixture seems to have increased significantly in the Mid-Late Neolithic/Chalcolithic, and there was profound economic and cultural transformations in that period roughly between 5000 and 3500 BCE.
    No, there wasn't. Most of the influence is coming from the Balkans, especially before the Bronze Age.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Also, if Anatolian split first and the non-Anatolian IE developed with all its peculiar characteristics in the steppes, then we're certainly talking about a linguistic shift, probably coupled with cultural and genetic ones, around 4000 BC or even earlier. That first IE expansion would not have been a Bronze Age phenomenon.
    Yes of course. If.

    Look, if we can trace IE back to the Old Old world I think that would be amazing. Why would I have some irrational aversion to this? I don't post on those forums full of 30 year old virgin white males. I just think there's MASSIVE leaps being made in this conclusion considering everything we know.

    We have a nice set of bronze age Anatolian samples, but compared to Europe it's very small, and look how much we learned about Europe in the South East European paper and the Baltic paper. A ton.

    *EDIT* And I'm pretty goddam sure there's steppe in one of the Anatolia_MLBA samples. What's going on? Can someone comment on this without attacking me. Thanks.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    Steppe people weren't primitive, they were a very creative culture.

    R1 nomads spreading their virus ? dude, you're an R1.
    He's tr0lling

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I'm not surprised about the steppe admixture in the early iron age samples. The Phrygians migrated to Central Anatolia from the Balkans during the very end of the bronze age.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    Steppe people weren't primitive, they were a very creative culture.

    R1 nomads spreading their virus ? dude, you're an R1.
    If you compare the Anatolian Indo-European cultures with those in the steppes, then you can call the steppe cultures primitive. My point is: how should those "creatives" of the steppes lead to such an "organized" (advanced) culture in Anatolia? And do not start with "elite dominance" and what not.

    I wanted to edit the word virus because I knew that someone will misunderstand it. What I wanted to say is that many steppes-hypothesis supporters want the hypothesis to be true because it fulfills their phantasms of "great" IE people spreading their language ("virus", not meant literally, so do not think I am using that term in a judging way) to all parts of the world, including the Near East.

    Yes, you say it I am R1(b-V1636). R1b evolved in the Near East and is present there since at least the Epipaleolithic. Especially in my case, I belong to a very old branch of R1b (according to yfull formed 15600 ybp) and this clade is pre-M269 (all European/Steppes and even most Near Eastern R1b branches belong to a subbranch of M269). When then a British R1b person tells me without any clue that my branch "is "an early split from the Steppes to the Near East", I really wonder what phantasms he is living in his head. Also my clade of V1636 has nothing in common with Kura-Araxes V1636, I wanted to say this too, that Kura-Araxes V1636 clade is extinct.

    Below "creativity" (as IronSide called it) of the Yamnaya-Steppe pastoralists:

    And compared to the Indo-European Hittite culture of Anatolia:


    I am not arguing who was greater and such stuff. The point is how should a culture as above (Steppes) lead to a culture like below (Hittites). Even the idea of Steppe pastoralists passing from the Balkans to Anatolia is absurd, which now is proved to be wrong. All IE cultures/languages (namely the Anatolian and steppe branches) derive from a Proto culture south of the Caucasus and developed completely independent from each other.
    Last edited by raspberry; 12-05-18 at 09:24.

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    No, there wasn't. Most of the influence is coming from the Balkans, especially before the Bronze Age.
    Well, I'd bet Khvalynsk and later Repin weren't simply autochthonous developments without any foreign influence, and they were far enough from the Balkans and close enough to the Caucasus to allow us to believe that the "rapid" Neolithization of the entire region from Ukraine to the Caspian wasn't exclusively Balkan-influenced. Also, the first characteristic kurgans do not seem to have appeared in the steppes, but in Transcaucasia. But of course I'm not sure. I'll just say that the Mesolithic and early Neolithic samples from Ukraine have a different autosomal makeup with much much less CHG/Iran_Neo related ancestry. I doubt that came from a generally more technologically advanced region without any cultural impact at all, even if the language of the natives didn't necessarily change.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry View Post
    If you compare the Anatolian Indo-European cultures with those in the steppes, then you can call the steppe cultures primitive. My point is: how should those "creatives" of steppes lead to such an "organized" (advanced) culture in Anatolia? And do not start with "elite dominance" and what not.
    Well, that kind of thing happened multiple times in History (and Pre-History): "barbarians" come, conquer, rule, but end up being extremely inflluenced (and changed) or even absorbed into the local more advanced civilizations they infiltrated into. That happened with the Amorites, Persians, Medes, Franks, Muslim Arabians, steppe Turks (into Central Asia and Iranian Plateau), Mongols, Manchus and dozens of other peoples who originally came from more primitive lands but managed to become advanced as they mixed with civilizations they conquered.

    Why would you think the Anatolian IEs were necessarily any different? That's a pretty repetitive pattern in history, if that happened it wouldn't be surprising in the least, especially if you consider that all that advance you know and talk of is an artifact of the mid-late Bronze Age (Hittite Empire, which existed roughly 1,000 years after even the latest phase of the Yamnaya culture), and the origins of Proto-Anatolian, a still undivided IE subfamily, are much older than that, certainly with more than one milennium for all kinds of cultural transformations to happen, including, you know, learning things from your neighbors, because cultures aren't stumbling blocks that do not mix with each other. In the case of Hittite, that interaction and intermixing is especially noticeable because they, even during their most glorious period, effectively had a bilingual empire (non-IE Hattic and Hittite) and used the pre-IE local language in much of their liturgy and religion.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I don't really understand why there is such a heated argument about the origins of the Anatolian branch. Some people seem to think that it is important to determine whether PIE originated in the Steppe or in the South Caucasus. But that's a false dichotomy. I have been saying for nearly 10 years, without needing to adjust my discourse as all ancient DNA evidence have always confirmed my proposed scenario, that R1b-M269 (and L23, which was not yet discovered when I started writing my R1b history in early 2009) originated in the South Caucasus (or Eastern Anatolia, which is almost the same thing) and that this R1b branch were cattle herders who crossed the Caucasus between 6000 and 5000 BCE. They mixed with the local population (I2a, R1a and, to my surprise also older branches of R1b like L388 and P297), and only then around the time of the Late Khvalynsk/Sredny Stog or Early Yamna/Maykop can we say that a common lingua franca had appeared in the Pontic Steppe that included vocabulary for horses (domesticated c. 4000 BCE), carts/wagons and metallurgy.

    I have explained here and here why it is nonsensical to think of the Hittites and other Anatolian IE as not having a Steppe origin. They had Steppe vocabulary and even possessed Steppe technology. There is no way these people were descendants from the R1b-L23 who stayed in the South Caucasus. Since PIE is estimated to be approximately 6000 years old (4000 BCE), it is equally ludicrous to believe that the Anatolian branch could have split from other IE languages 8000 years ago. Yet one cannot say that the Anatolian branch remained in the Caucasus without asserting all this by the same occasion.

    As for the CHG admixture in Bronze Age Anatolia, most of it would have been brought by the Kura-Araxes expansion, which was contemporaneous to the Yamna expansion, but from the South Caucasus to Anatolia, Aegean Greece, Cyprus, the Fertile Crescent, Iran, Bactria-Margiana and as far as the Indus. The Hurrians, Hattians, Minoans, and possibly also the Akkadians, Assyrians and Elamites descend at least partly from the Kura-Araxes people. The Kura-Araxes haplogroups included J2a1 (M319, Z7671, F3133, Z6046, L581, etc.), J1-Z1828, G2a-L293 and T1a-P77.

    But the bottom line is that R1b-L23 is the principal original lineage of PIE, as R1b-L23 did originated in the South Caucasus, but PIE as a language did not develop until c. 4000 BCE over 1000 to 2000 years after R1b-L23 settled in the Pontic Steppe.

    So genetically, the paternal line of Indo-European is from the South Caucasus, but PIE people and language are a hybrid of South Caucasian and Steppe people. There is no point arguing beyond that.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 12-05-18 at 09:01.
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    1 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Well, that kind of thing happened multiple times in History (and Pre-History): "barbarians" come, conquer, rule, but end up being extremely inflluenced (and changed) or even absorbed into the local more advanced civilizations they infiltrated into. That happened with the Amorites, Persians, Medes, Franks, Muslim Arabians, steppe Turks (into Central Asia and Iranian Plateau), Mongols, Manchus and dozens of other peoples who originally came from more primitive lands but managed to become advanced as they mixed with civilizations they conquered. Why would you think the Anatolian IEs were necessarily any different? That's a pretty repetitive pattern in history, if that happened it wouldn't be surprising in the least, especially if you consider that all that advance you know and talk of is an artifact of the mid-late Bronze Age (Hittite Empire), and the origins of Proto-Anatolian, a still undivided IE subfamily, are much older than that, certainly with more than 1000 years for all kinds of cultural transformations to happen.
    I knew that this will come as an answer. How about looking at the Hittite samples then, do they show to have steppes related ancestry? No, end of the story, there was no migration nor invasion of Steppes people from the Balkan to Anatolia, in your mentioned examples always admixture spread with themselves, how not in this case? Anyway, if the steppes make you sleep then so it should be.

    If the next Hittite samples have steppes ancestry, then I will withdraw my claim, but for now I am confirmed by these 3 new Hittite samples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I don't really understand why there is such a heated argument about the origins of the Anatolian branch. Some people seem to think that it is important to determine whether PIE originated in the Steppe or in the South Caucasus. But that's a false dichotomy. I have been saying for nearly 10 years, without needing to adjust my discourse as all ancient DNA evidence have always confirmed my proposed scenario, that R1b-M269 (and L23, which was not yet discovered when I started writing my R1b history in early 2009) originated in the South Caucasus (or Eastern Anatolia, which is almost the same thing) and that this R1b branch were cattle herders who crossed the Caucasus between 6000 and 5000 BCE. They mixed with the local population (I2a, R1a and, to my surprise also older branches of R1b like L388 and P297), and only then around the time of the Late Khvalynsk/Sredny Stog or Early Yamna/Maykop can we say that a common lingua franca had appeared in the Pontic Steppe that included vocabulary for horses (domesticated c. 4000 BCE), carts/wagons and metallurgy.

    I have explained here and here why it is nonsensical to think of the Hittites and other Anatolian IE as not having a Steppe origin. They had Steppe vocabulary and even possessed Steppe technology. There is no way these people were descendants from the R1b-L23 who stayed in the South Caucasus. Since PIE is estimated to be approximately 6000 years old (4000 BCE), it is equally ludicrous to believe that the Anatolian branch could have split from other IE languages 8000 years ago. Yet one cannot say that the Anatolian branch remained in the Caucasus without asserting all this by the same occasion.

    But the bottom line is that R1b-L23 is the principal original lineage of PIE, as R1b-L23 did originated in the South Caucasus, but PIE as a language did not develop until c. 4000 BCE over 1000 to 2000 years after R1b-L23 settled in the Pontic Steppe.

    So genetically, the paternal line of Indo-European is from the South Caucasus, but PIE people and language are a hybrid of South Caucasian and Steppe people. There is no point arguing beyond that.
    what does lazardis mean when he says that no steppe in anatolian populations falsifies the steppe theory? isn't he actually playing with the thought that the anatolian branch was spread by people who were missing EHG?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Promenade View Post
    Not autochthonous, but most likely from the Caucasus. If they were authochthonous then they wouldn't have been subjugating the Hattic people there before them and using all their place names for the area. The paper mentions the problems with this that I'm sure everyone else is thinking about

    "We cannot at this point reject a scenario in which the introduction of the Anatolian IE languages into Anatolia was coupled with the CHG-derived admixture prior to 3700 BCE, but note that this is contrary to the standard view that PIE arose in the steppe north of the Caucasus (4) and that CHG ancestry is also associated with several non-IE-speaking groups, historical and current. Indeed, our data are also consistent with the first speakers of Anatolian IE coming to the region by way of commercial contacts and small-scale movement during the Bronze Age."

    "Among comparative linguists, a Balkan route for the introduction of Anatolian IE is generally considered more likely than a passage through the Caucasus, due, for example, to greater Anatolian IE presence and language diversity in the west"

    I do agree though, it would probably be more constructive to get DNA from Luwian speakers further west from before the Hittite empire.
    What I dislike is that they talk about there being non-IE-speaking populations associated with CHG as if All EHG is associated with is IE. Finno_Ugrics?
    Last edited by Alan; 12-05-18 at 15:48.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Again, I hope next time they use the samples of old anthro research.
    Johen the earliest inhabitants of Anatolia were Early_Anatolian Farmers/EEF. Hittites seems to be a mix of CHG and Ana_Neo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    All Indo-European migrants eventually admixed to some degree with the "locals". Still, the way that arrival is tracked is by the presence of "steppe" in the autosome, whether it's Europe or Central Asia or India. Isn't that what all the analysis is about? What do you think we've all been tracking for the last couple of years?

    Only with Anatolia we don't need to find any trace of steppe? This takes special pleading and biased reasoning to a whole new level.
    Even finding a little EHG admixture in the region is not a strong argument imo. It's like we could guarante that EHG admixture never reached the South before the Indo Europeans. As we can read from the paper. They seem to have found some EHG even in Maykop. What if there is some in Leyla Tepe too?

    But there being a lack of EHG in Hittite samples is indeed a very strong argument against Steppes being their homeland. Indeed I have heard many times that Hittite is so different from the other Indo European groups that it could even be considered it's own branch. Almost like a sister language to Indo European.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Well, I'd bet Khvalynsk and later Repin weren't simply autochthonous developments without any foreign influence, and they were far enough from the Balkans and close enough to the Caucasus to allow us to believe that the "rapid" Neolithization of the entire region from Ukraine to the Caspian wasn't exclusively Balkan-influenced. Also, the first characteristic kurgans do not seem to have appeared in the steppes, but in Transcaucasia. But of course I'm not sure. I'll just say that the Mesolithic and early Neolithic samples from Ukraine have a different autosomal makeup with much much less CHG/Iran_Neo related ancestry. I doubt that came from a generally more technologically advanced region without any cultural impact at all, even if the language of the natives didn't necessarily change.
    That's the funny thing. Those Khvalynsk graves are very rich for the context, and ALL of the copper was from the Balkans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    What I dislike is that they talk about there being non IE populations associated with CHG as if All EHG is associated with is IE. Finno_Ugrics?
    Read it again and you'll see they're actually very cautious about this. Did you see the EHG in Namazga Chalcolithic? Before they jumped to conclusions they noted the apparent absence of CHG and decided they cannot connect it with Indo-European infiltration. And I'd say they're right, Namazga used Bactrian Camels and Oxen for transportation... what kind of Indo European arrives without his horse? We know EHG was capable of moving around on its own as well seeing a movement into the baltics.

    I wonder what culture these migrants came from though, perhaps they were steppe hunter gatherers pushed out by the new Indo European EHG/CHG hybrids? It's curious they made it as far as southern Turkmenistan and that while they settled in Namazga the EHG component is absent in other BMAC settlements for another 1000 years until the WSHGs arrive.

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    Isnt it more natural the origins of Neolithic farmers to be the Caucasus area? They were just another migratory wave from the same source, they just moved to another direction towards Europe.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry View Post
    I knew that this will come as an answer. How about looking at the Hittite samples then, do they show to have steppes related ancestry? No, end of the story, there was no migration nor invasion of Steppes people from the Balkan to Anatolia, in your mentioned examples always admixture spread with themselves, how not in this case? Anyway, if the steppes make you sleep then so it should be.

    If the next Hittite samples have steppes ancestry, then I will withdraw my claim, but for now I am confirmed by these 3 new Hittite samples.
    Man, everyone will be able to take you a bit more seriously if you sound a bit less hysterical, arrogant and angry, okay? Be more respectful, am I clear? The funny thing is that, despite all of your hysteria, I also lean towards the same way you understand about the origins of Hittites and their Anatolian ancestors. So it seems you're fighting your imaginary demons.

    That said, I won't simply agree with a weak and factually wrong statement of yours just because we both believe that it is perfectly plausible and even likely that the Anatolian branch of IE diverged from the non-Anatolian IE branch very early on and probably not in the Pontic-Caspian steppe. Those are two completely different matters. We can't accept some weak and false statements just because they would favor our own conclusions, that's not intellectually honest. Anatolian IE may have come as an independent offshoot from a Early PIE population, but that was not because they were more "civilized" or "creative" than the steppe tribes or other such nonsense as if Hittites had appeared out of the blue in Hattic-speaking lands - among many other reasons, obviously, for the simple fact that Anatolian vs. The Rest linguistic split would've happened very early on, in the Neolithic, when not even Sumer was a full fledged civilization.

    What you cannot do is just claim - and think people will accept this uncritically - that one of the good reasons to state that is that Hittite culture was so much more advanced than that of steppe IE tribes. That proves nothing at all, especially if you are comparing late Bronze Age Hittites from around 1500-1300 BCE with Yamnaya or Corded Ware people from more than 1000 years earlier. It's just nonsense, this argument is countered by dozens of historically attested "acculturations" of barbarian tribes who became highly civilized in a matter of a few centuries. Sorry.


    Now, if you want to base your arguments entirely on the genetic and archaeological evidences, that's fine for me, especially because we agree on the most plausible explanation for these BA Anatolian results.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry View Post
    If you compare the Anatolian Indo-European cultures with those in the steppes, then you can call the steppe cultures primitive. My point is: how should those "creatives" of the steppes lead to such an "organized" (advanced) culture in Anatolia? And do not start with "elite dominance" and what not.

    I wanted to edit the word virus because I knew that someone will misunderstand it. What I wanted to say is that many steppes-hypothesis supporters want the hypothesis to be true because it fulfills their phantasms of "great" IE people spreading their language ("virus", not meant literally, so do not think I am using that term in a judging way) to all parts of the world, including the Near East.

    Yes, you say it I am R1(b-V1635). R1b evolved in the Near East and is present there since at least the Epipaleolithic. Especially in my case, I belong to a very old branch of R1b (according to yfull formed 15600 ybp) and this clade is pre-M269 (all European/Steppes and even most Near Eastern R1b branches belong to a subbranch of M269). When then a British R1b person tells me without any clue that my branch "is "an early split from the Steppes to the Near East", I really wonder what phantasms he is living in his head. Also my clade of V1636 has nothing in common with Kura-Araxes V1636, I wanted to say this too, that Kura-Araxes V1636 clade is extinct.

    Below "creativity" (as IronSide called it) of the Yamnaya-Steppe pastoralists:

    And compared to the Indo-European Hittite culture of Anatolia:


    I am not arguing who was greater and such stuff. The point is how should a culture as above (Steppes) lead to a culture like below (Hittites). Even the idea of Steppe pastoralists passing from the Balkans to Anatolia is absurd, which now is proved to be wrong. All IE cultures/languages (namely the Anatolian and steppe branches) derive from a Proto culture south of the Caucasus and developed completely independent from each other.
    Ygorcs already mentioned it, but what's the point of comparing the cultural advancement of the Yamna culture (3500-2500 BCE) to the late Hittites (1500-1200 BCE), when they are separated by 1000 to 2300 years? It would be like comparing ancient Gaul with modern Britain and saying the British culture is amazingly more advanced than the French one. That's the height of intellectual dishonesty. If you look at other Steppe-derived cultures contemporary to the Hittites, what you find are the Celts, the Mycenaean Greeks, the Indo-Aryans of the Rig Veda... They are all much closer to the Hittites than to Yamna.

    Then, as Ygorcs said, the Hittites absorbed a lot of their culture from the Hattians or other pre-IE Indo-European populations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    what does lazardis mean when he says that no steppe in anatolian populations falsifies the steppe theory? isn't he actually playing with the thought that the anatolian branch was spread by people who were missing EHG?
    I don't know but that comes from a guy who maintained for many years that IE languages spread with Neolithic farmers from Anatolia and who was sure that modern humans didn't have Neanderthal admixture - until ancient DNA proved him wrong.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    @holderlin, the steppe signal in BA Anatolian is dubious, in fact it's a Euro HG signal, and disappears in other Admixture Ks.

    By the way to find right autosomes and Y-DNA in Hittites will be so difficult as to find it in ancient India as both practiced cremation, and if I remember well under kurgans in Anatolia. Just practicing apartheid as in India with the caste system would not ease the research.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    @holderlin, the steppe signal in BA Anatolian is dubious, in fact it's a Euro HG signal, and disappears in other Admixture Ks.

    By the way to find right autosomes and Y-DNA in Hittites will be so difficult as to find it in ancient India as both practiced cremation, and if I remember well under kurgans in Anatolia. Just practicing apartheid as in India with the caste system would not ease the research.
    Yes, dubious, but it is in a sample listed as during the time of "Old Hittite", which of course doesn't mean that it's a Hittite person, but the fact that it's not in the earlier "Assyrian" samples is showing a pull towards Europe (if not the steppe) at the very least as we move towards the Iron Age when we see the increased Euro HG in the Hellenistic samples.

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