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Thread: Where did the Anatolian branch of Indo-European originate?

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    But Hittite were in history in 1600 BC, CHG in the pontic steppe happenned 6000-5000 BC. So how do we explain IE languages with both EHG or CHG ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I don't know but that comes from a guy who maintained for many years that IE languages spread with Neolithic farmers from Anatolia ...
    And IE did spread with Neolithic farmer from Anatolia. I mean at least VIA Anatolia.
    That is becoming the elephant in the room: Assuming Krause is right, Now Reich is right and so many others (as me and you)… then it needs to be assumed, it follows, that populations we see moving via Anatolia and arriving to Balkans at 4500bc, such as Kum6 (4600bc), loaded with CHG and different farmers ancestry from Anatolia_N (8000bc) and having heavy shared ancestry with Greece Neolithic, such as Klei10, and Pal7 in Greece, a thousand years later (3500bc) and with even Otzi the Iceman (3300bc) …. They ALL SPOKE PIE/IE!

    So, best put, Otzi could very well be a IE speaking person and have never even have met a Steppe person! – Lets start wrapping our minds around it!

    I challenge anyone to truly fault this reasoning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    And IE did spread with Neolithic farmer from Anatolia. I mean at least VIA Anatolia.
    That is becoming the elephant in the room: Assuming Krause is right, Now Reich is right and so many others (as me and you)… then it needs to be assumed, it follows, that populations we see moving via Anatolia and arriving to Balkans at 4500bc, such as Kum6 (4600bc), loaded with CHG and different farmers ancestry from Anatolia_N (8000bc) and having heavy shared ancestry with Greece Neolithic, such as Klei10, and Pal7 in Greece, a thousand years later (3500bc) and with even Otzi the Iceman (3300bc) …. They ALL SPOKE PIE/IE!

    So, best put, Otzi could very well be a IE speaking person and have never even have met a Steppe person! – Lets start wrapping our minds around it!

    I challenge anyone to truly fault this reasoning.
    What happened to Shulaveri-Shomu, did one paper change your mind so quickly?

    You should elaborate though, do you believe an Anatolian derived IE spread with EEF or later with the CHG intrusion into southern Europe? The obvious fault with this reasoning is all pre-IE languages in Europe are not IE related, Basque, Etruscan, Lemnian etc. and we don't see the archaic Anatolian influence on modern IE languages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    And IE did spread with Neolithic farmer from Anatolia. I mean at least VIA Anatolia.
    That is becoming the elephant in the room: Assuming Krause is right, Now Reich is right and so many others (as me and you)… then it needs to be assumed, it follows, that populations we see moving via Anatolia and arriving to Balkans at 4500bc, such as Kum6 (4600bc), loaded with CHG and different farmers ancestry from Anatolia_N (8000bc) and having heavy shared ancestry with Greece Neolithic, such as Klei10, and Pal7 in Greece, a thousand years later (3500bc) and with even Otzi the Iceman (3300bc) …. They ALL SPOKE PIE/IE!

    So, best put, Otzi could very well be a IE speaking person and have never even have met a Steppe person! – Lets start wrapping our minds around it!

    I challenge anyone to truly fault this reasoning.
    Mr Snow, I am still waiting for your response at Anthrogenica, it seems as if your having a difficult time, no rush.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    Steppe people weren't primitive, they were a very creative culture.

    R1 nomads spreading their virus ? dude, you're an R1.
    Steppe peoples ORIGINALLY were indeed very primitive. They were hunter-gatherers living in yurts. How can you possibly compare them to the more civilized cultures of their day, such as the people of "Old Europe", or contemporaneous cultures of the Near East?

    That's not a put down of any kind. It's just the facts.

    They borrowed agriculture from other peoples, metallurgy from other peoples, it seems they may even have gotten kurgans, burial rites, and the wheel from other peoples.

    Even Andronovo/Sintashta from the perspective of culture owes little to the steppe groups to the west. There is no trail of metallurgy to them from the Pontic-Caspian steppe for example, which was still more "primitive" in terms of metallurgy. Many of their advancements may have come to them from the south, by way of the Inner Asian Corridor.

    What they were was excellent borrowers and adapters. That's an admirable trait in its own way. They weren't so rigid that they refused to adopt more sophisticated technology.

    As for your comment about R1 nomads spreading the plague, that's also a fact, just as Genovese trade ships spread it after picking it up from steppe people in the Crimea during the Middle Ages.

    Are you seriously suggesting that because men carry an R1 ydna haplogroup they should attempt to distort the historical record so their ancestors "look better" from the standpoint of history?

    If you are, I'm sorry to say this is an example of everything that's wrong with the amateur population genetics community.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Even finding a little EHG admixture in the region is not a strong argument imo. It's like we could guarante that EHG admixture never reached the South before the Indo Europeans. As we can read from the paper. They seem to have found some EHG even in Maykop. What if there is some in Leyla Tepe too?

    But there being a lack of EHG in Hittite samples is indeed a very strong argument against Steppes being their homeland. Indeed I have heard many times that Hittite is so different from the other Indo European groups that it could even be considered it's own branch. Almost like a sister language to Indo European.
    That's indeed one of the linguistic theories about Hittite.

    As I've said repeatedly, I'm content to see what information comes from the Royal Hittite graves.

    The way things stand now, however, all the top three population genetics groups in the world, people who know more about statistics and these programs (indeed they created them) than anyone in the population genetics amateur community, consider it a possibility: the Harvard group under David Reich and Nick Patterson, the Willerslev group, including Allentoft, and the Max Planck institute. Even Mr. Eurogenes has conceded it is possible.

    None of them know what they're talking about? They're all biased Near Easterners? I don't think so.

    Just follow the evidence, people, and apply the same logic to every situation.

    Even if it turns out to be true that the first form of the language moved from south of the Caucasus to the steppe along with the genes, what does it matter, for goodness' sakes? The rest of the theory is more or less intact, even if far more nuanced than the pop gen amateur community would have had it.

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    @Angela

    What are you saying ? 😀 I'm an expert on population genetics.

    The gods themselves stand in awe to my wisdom.

    And raspberry was just making nonsense and hating on the steppe folk. They have feelings too you know .. we have to defend the weak.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    Mr Snow, I am still waiting for your response at Anthrogenica, it seems as if your having a difficult time, no rush.
    I can guarantee and swear I am not SNOW.
    I would really like to engage him, but I am banned from Anthro.
    Can you ask me, what was the question? Maybe I can help.

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    If the Hittite racial type is representative of the culture-bearers, you’d assume they wouldn’t have come from the Steppe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Promenade View Post
    What happened to Shulaveri-Shomu, did one paper change your mind so quickly?

    Dude!! - Shulaveri-Shomu disappearance is ...
    a. Kum6 (4600bc) in Nortwestern Anatlolia --- is slightly later Boian (Marita)- Gulmelnita (4500bc). Yes as a matter of fact, we could call it Shulaveri. Little change in fact.
    b. Pre-cucuteni, and Cucuteni-Trypolie it follows, was nothing else but Shulaveri (boian) and LBK (and whatever Hamangia was). those were the ones taking the blow of incoming Cernovada (steppe? Shulaveri cousins with EHG?).
    c. South Boian/Marita, were seen arriving to North greece (3800bc).

    So, does it make sense to keep on calling it Shulaveri?


    Quote Originally Posted by Promenade View Post
    You should elaborate though, do you believe an Anatolian derived IE spread with EEF or later with the CHG intrusion into southern Europe? The obvious fault with this reasoning is all pre-IE languages in Europe are not IE related, Basque, Etruscan, Lemnian etc. and we don't see the archaic Anatolian influence on modern IE languages.
    Dude, again.
    Kum6, brought IE to balkans. She was not EEF.
    follow my previous words. People are not a playstation game. Give it time and the images of nice chicks and something precious and they will literally move mountains. Women just had to put up with this childish behaviour.
    a. When steppe IE (which is a reality) arrived to Moldavia... they found people that spoke a IE pretty close to theirs. Wow cousins.
    b. A travelling steppe dude (son of Cernovada or CWC or whatever), if it was or had been him, when he met OTZI, before putting a arrow to his back he clearly understood the "please dont" because of the shared ancestry Otzi had with the Kum6 girl that lived 1500 years before in North Anatolia, the grand mother of lots of following ancestry in balkans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Dude!! - Shulaveri-Shomu disappearance is ...
    a. Kum6 (4600bc) in Nortwestern Anatlolia --- is slightly later Boian (Marita)- Gulmelnita (4500bc). Yes as a matter of fact, we could call it Shulaveri. Little change in fact.
    b. Pre-cucuteni, and Cucuteni-Trypolie it follows, was nothing else but Shulaveri (boian) and LBK (and whatever Hamangia was). those were the ones taking the blow of incoming Cernovada (steppe? Shulaveri cousins with EHG?).
    c. South Boian/Marita, were seen arriving to North greece (3800bc).

    So, does it make sense to keep on calling it Shulaveri?




    Dude, again.
    Kum6, brought IE to balkans. She was not EEF.
    follow my previous words. People are not a playstation game. Give it time and the images of nice chicks and something precious and they will literally move mountains. Women just had to put up with this childish behaviour.
    a. When steppe IE (which is a reality) arrived to Moldavia... they found people that spoke a IE pretty close to theirs. Wow cousins.
    b. A travelling steppe dude (son of Cernovada or CWC or whatever), if it was or had been him, when he met OTZI, before putting a arrow to his back he clearly understood the "please dont" because of the shared ancestry Otzi had with the Kum6 girl that lived 1500 years before in North Anatolia, the grand mother of lots of following ancestry in balkans.
    So you think it spread with CHG/EEF mix into Europe, right? Others my find you a nuisance, but I appreciate your contribution, tell me though what about Etruscan, Lemnian and Basque? How would they be explained in this model? These old European cultures remind me nothing of those of Anatolia and the Caucuses, but maybe I am wrong, convince me otherwise.

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    The user "Ryukendo" has some enlightening comments on anthrogenica such as these:

    "It appears the authors of the paper do treat the discovery of Anatolian materials close to the borders of Syria in 2500BC as a major finding of the paper.

    From an interview conducted by ScienceDaily (LINK: https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0509185446.htm) :


    Gojko Barjamovic, Senior Lecturer on Assyriology at Harvard University, explains:

    "In Anatolia, and parts of Central Asia, which held densely settled complex urban societies, the history of language spread and genetic ancestry is better described in terms of contact and absorption than by simply a movement of population."

    He adds:

    "The Indo-European languages are usually said to emerge in Anatolia in the 2nd millennium BCE. However, we use evidence from the palatial archives of the ancient city of Ebla in Syria to argue that Indo-European was already spoken in modern-day Turkey in the 25th century BCE. This means that the speakers of these language must have arrived there prior to any Yamnaya expansions."

    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    The user "Ryukendo" has some enlightening comments on anthrogenica such as these:

    "It appears the authors of the paper do treat the discovery of Anatolian materials close to the borders of Syria in 2500BC as a major finding of the paper.

    From an interview conducted by ScienceDaily (LINK: https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0509185446.htm) :


    Gojko Barjamovic, Senior Lecturer on Assyriology at Harvard University, explains:

    "In Anatolia, and parts of Central Asia, which held densely settled complex urban societies, the history of language spread and genetic ancestry is better described in terms of contact and absorption than by simply a movement of population."

    He adds:

    "The Indo-European languages are usually said to emerge in Anatolia in the 2nd millennium BCE. However, we use evidence from the palatial archives of the ancient city of Ebla in Syria to argue that Indo-European was already spoken in modern-day Turkey in the 25th century BCE. This means that the speakers of these language must have arrived there prior to any Yamnaya expansions."

    Thinks make me think we should wait for the Maykop study, unless there is something else revelation to say?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    I can guarantee and swear I am not SNOW.
    I would really like to engage him, but I am banned from Anthro.
    Can you ask me, what was the question? Maybe I can help.
    My appologizes sorry, he has many similar theories to you.

    Anyways he claimed that J2 is the main IE marker, and I challenged him to find a specific branch of J2 that is conceivable with PIE timeframe that has branches in all areas where IE is spoken today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Promenade View Post
    So you think it spread with CHG/EEF mix into Europe, right? Others my find you a nuisance, but I appreciate your contribution, tell me though what about Etruscan, Lemnian and Basque? How would they be explained in this model? These old European cultures remind me nothing of those of Anatolia and the Caucuses, but maybe I am wrong, convince me otherwise.
    a. I think IE spread with CHG/EEF , and CHG/IRAN_N and CHG/EHG (steppe)... and God only knows how many combinations.
    b. The elephant in the room is that in the 5th and 4th millennium, in eastern/southeastern Europe and in deep ukraine, many spoke a very similar IE. Many of the characteristics many think are attributed to steppe IE were actually from South balkans IE and even to unknown and unreferenced populations in central europe.
    c. Now... me being me, I still think there was a population in Portugal that spoke IE, closer to PIE up until Lusitanian. Must agree low probability.

    now,
    about old languages. What really surprise me is the absent of many more. there should be many more because europe as many topographic enclaves. however we know that the bronze age brought bottlenecks (5.9 kiloyear event) and Iron age was a mess where some imposed. so maybe that is the reason. There should really be many Basques in europe.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    @Angela

    What are you saying ? ������ I'm an expert on population genetics.

    The gods themselves stand in awe to my wisdom.

    And raspberry was just making nonsense and hating on the steppe folk. They have feelings too you know .. we have to defend the weak.
    Just how was he "hating on steppe folk"? This thread has gotten very long, and I probably missed some posts.

    To "hate on " any ancient people is silly, but to try to distort archaeology and linguistics to support some self-identification is also silly, and dishonest as well.

    Well, at least I'll give you that you stand behind your ideas. That's better than the Promenade method of downvoting posts instead of providing academic sources for his disagreement. Oh wait, that's because my opinions ARE based on the academic sources. :)

    I'm still a little confused, though. If people's opinions should be based on their ethnicity, what's your excuse for your steppe worship? You're supposed to be a Saudi, yes? One conquering nomadic people for another?

    Btw, I would never call the Indo-Europeans "weak". On the other hand, strength has nothing to do with civilization. The Nazis were "strong", but they were ignorant barbarians motivated by idiot anthropology, conspiracy theories, and moronic beliefs in the occult. So, two different things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Interesting.

    On a tangentially related note, I have read your haplogroup page on R1b and i'm curious about PF7562. For PF7562 you theorize that it may be either an early Steppe migration to the Balkans dating from the Sredny Stog period or related to the Hittites.

    I'm a bit perplexed as to its balkan distribution and what it means:



    Source: http://r1b-pf7562.blogspot.fr/
    I'm still perplexed by this mainly because I remember reading about connections on some blog between hittite and illyrian cults but i took it with a grain of salt because it was a fringe blog. When does it make sense that this pf7562 got into Balkans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    My appologizes sorry, he has many similar theories to you.

    Anyways he claimed that J2 is the main IE marker, and I challenged him to find a specific branch of J2 that is conceivable with PIE timeframe that has branches in all areas where IE is spoken today.
    its cool.

    He can be right.... For Anatolian. or even others.

    Imagine this.
    a. Imagine I am right about Shulaveri-Shomu and they were it. they were PIE with R1b-M269-L23. however they were not alone. Shulaveri were massive but only in a 100km area. They were 100 km from northwestern Iran (different stock). Most important: just next to them, miles way near balck sea, there were the Ansueli, paluri, etc, which I think were pure CHG with J2 as well as much of Iran neolithic was J2. Shulaveri never got truly into the fertile lowlands of the azerbaijan (strange), but the surely must have mixed with....the CHOKH cultures (caucasus mountains) had which Y dna? what autosomal composition? why couldn't they have EHG? no spillage at all of EHG from North caucasus over 3000 years?

    b. So, many of the PIE speaker would really be J2. many core SS (coming from Balkans 6200bc) were R1b but by 5000bc, many PIE speakers were J2. You will even would have found large bands of the PIE speakers that were J2.

    c. Don't be surprise if Hittite will be solely J2.

    d. Dont be surprise if we find Chokh mixing with Shulaveri and if they had EHG already, dont be surprise to find shulaveri very Anatolian as others very CHG. 1500 after arrival very admix. in first half of 6th milenium... be careful. :) reality will be much more complex that we currently are able to make it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    its cool.

    He can be right.... For Anatolian. or even others.

    Imagine this.
    a. Imagine I am right about Shulaveri-Shomu and they were it. they were PIE with R1b-M269-L23. however they were not alone. Shulaveri were massive but only in a 100km area. They were 100km from northwestern Iran (different stock). Most important: just next to them, miles way near balck sea, there were the Ansueli, paluri, etc, which I think were pure CHG with J2 as well as much of Iran neolithic was J2. Shulaveri never got truly into the fertile lowlands of the azerbaijan (strange), but the surely must have mixed with....the CHOKH cultures has which Ydna? why couldnt they have EHG? no spillage at all of EHG from North caucasus over 3000 years?

    b. So, many of the PIE speaker would really be J2. many core SS (coming from Balkans) were R1b but by 5000bc, many PIE speakers were J2. You will even would have found large bands of the PIE speakers that were J2.

    c. Don't be surprise if Hittite will be solely J2.

    d. Dont be surprise if we find Chokh mixing with Shulaveri and if they had EHG already, dont be surprise to find shulaveri very Anatolian as others very CHG. 1500 after arrival very admix. in first half of 6th milenium... be careful. :)
    What do you see as the relationship between Shulaveri, Leyla Tepe, Halaf and Ubaid is?

    Apprenty, Shulaveri shares more similarities with Halaf, whereas Leyla Tepe shares more with Ubaid. What makes you so sure Leyla Tepe was founded by Shulaveri and not Ubaid?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Just how was he "hating on steppe folk"? This thread has gotten very long, and I probably missed some posts.
    To "hate on " any ancient people is silly, but to try to distort archaeology and linguistics to support some self-identification is also silly, and dishonest as well.
    Well, at least I'll give you that you stand behind your ideas. That's better than the Promenade method of downvoting posts instead of providing academic sources for his disagreement. Oh wait, that's because my opinions ARE based on the academic sources. :)
    I'm still a little confused, though. If people's opinions should be based on their ethnicity, what's your excuse for your steppe worship? You're supposed to be a Saudi, yes? One conquering nomadic people for another?
    Btw, I would never call the Indo-Europeans "weak". On the other hand, strength has nothing to do with civilization. The Nazis were "strong", but they were ignorant barbarians motivated by idiot anthropology, conspiracy theories, and moronic beliefs in the occult. So, two different things.
    Don't Steppe-shame me because I'm a Bedouin, we are a very sensitive people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    its cool.

    He can be right.... For Anatolian. or even others.

    Imagine this.
    a. Imagine I am right about Shulaveri-Shomu and they were it. they were PIE with R1b-M269-L23. however they were not alone. Shulaveri were massive but only in a 100km area. They were 100 km from northwestern Iran (different stock). Most important: just next to them, miles way near balck sea, there were the Ansueli, paluri, etc, which I think were pure CHG with J2 as well as much of Iran neolithic was J2. Shulaveri never got truly into the fertile lowlands of the azerbaijan (strange), but the surely must have mixed with....the CHOKH cultures (caucasus mountains) had which Y dna? what autosomal composition? why couldn't they have EHG? no spillage at all of EHG from North caucasus over 3000 years?

    b. So, many of the PIE speaker would really be J2. many core SS (coming from Balkans 6200bc) were R1b but by 5000bc, many PIE speakers were J2. You will even would have found large bands of the PIE speakers that were J2.

    c. Don't be surprise if Hittite will be solely J2.

    d. Dont be surprise if we find Chokh mixing with Shulaveri and if they had EHG already, dont be surprise to find shulaveri very Anatolian as others very CHG. 1500 after arrival very admix. in first half of 6th milenium... be careful. :) reality will be much more complex that we currently are able to make it.
    I'll write exactly what I wrote at Anthrogenica, i’m going to copy and paste the last paragraph in one of posts. It kind of answers your response, I am open to the possibility that some specific branches of J2 will be involved, with the exception of J2b-L283 which definitely was an IE marker.

    Last point I want to make, now the reason why phylogenetic trees are very important for the case of J2 is because it makes J2 a very poor candidate for IE or PIE, there aren’t really any lineages in J2 (one exception) that expanded and produced so many lineages like R1b-M269 or R1a-M417 or a star like pattern expansion. People also forget that around the same time that IE was diffusing there was also the major expansion of the Kura Araxes Culture which was not IE, if people doubt this well the Hurrians are an offshoot and the current Nakh speakers (Chechens and Ingush) are descendants of them. What can be seen and fits much better is that many branches of J2a, especially under PF5116 (ex. Z467, Z6065, Z7671, Z500, etc...) start have expansion during the Kura Araxes Culture timeline. They were not restricted to Kura Araxes as J2b-M205 with Semitic speakers and J2a-F3133 and pre-Iranian civilizations of Iran (Jiroft, Elam, etx...). Also very likely to have been involved with Mesopotamian ethnogensis we’ll have to wait and see for results. Now the exception with regards to J2 and IE, as I have said for quite awhile that J2b-L283 matches and has direct ancient dna evidence to be an IE marker, and similar to how J2a-Z6048 and J2a-Z6048 are unique to be Farmer lineages, J2b-L283 is completely unique its in own aspects in the J2 tree. Now is it possible that some J2a branches could have been part of Southern and Eastern IE expansions, yes it is absolutely possible but it will be specific lineages and the ancestor of this lineage was likely a non IE speaker like Hattic, Hurrian, Minoan, etc... what do these Hittites genomes tell us, in my opinion they reaffirm the importance of Maykop in the whole ethnogensis of PIE.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    The user "Ryukendo" has some enlightening comments on anthrogenica such as these:

    "It appears the authors of the paper do treat the discovery of Anatolian materials close to the borders of Syria in 2500BC as a major finding of the paper.

    From an interview conducted by ScienceDaily (LINK: https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0509185446.htm) :


    Gojko Barjamovic, Senior Lecturer on Assyriology at Harvard University, explains:

    "In Anatolia, and parts of Central Asia, which held densely settled complex urban societies, the history of language spread and genetic ancestry is better described in terms of contact and absorption than by simply a movement of population."

    He adds:

    "The Indo-European languages are usually said to emerge in Anatolia in the 2nd millennium BCE. However, we use evidence from the palatial archives of the ancient city of Ebla in Syria to argue that Indo-European was already spoken in modern-day Turkey in the 25th century BCE. This means that the speakers of these language must have arrived there prior to any Yamnaya expansions."

    Are people even reading this paper? Because they should.

    There are no "Anatolian materials". These are Assyrian merchant records from Ebla and Kanes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    What do you see as the relationship between Shulaveri, Leyla Tepe, Halaf and Ubaid is?

    Apprenty, Shulaveri shares more similarities with Halaf, whereas Leyla Tepe shares more with Ubaid. What makes you so sure Leyla Tepe was founded by Shulaveri and not Ubaid?
    a. Halaf are the mystery now to me. they can turn out lots of different things. People say they were related to SSC because of a couple sherds and things like that , mostly in Aratashen/Arkanashen (armenia shulaveri)...but it might not mean nothing or they can be cousins. But still think Halaf will open a new "discovery". lets see.

    b. Ubaid. the ones that attacked and "killed" the Shulaveri? that is my story in https://shulaveri2bellbeaker.blogs.sapo.pt/. My tale in there makes them the culprit. but I have lots of doubts. Ubaid were evolved, complex, psychologically developed but never came out as violent. its true that their "sons" Uruk didnt really came across as nothing but pure badass. However, Halaf-to-Ubaid, Ubaid-to-Uruk , Ubaid-to-Dalma ware... humm to much ubaid to my taste. And remember: I have the PIE and Shulaveri as people traumatized by Snakes. remember, the oldest PIE tale is the hero that kills the snake right? - Ubaid were the snake people.

    c. Leyla tepe... evolved, craftsmans. cousins of Uruk (?). nothing to do with shulaveri. would imagine dumb ass Kura araxes more related to remaining Shulaveri stock than any of the more evolved Ubaid descendents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    I'll write exactly what I wrote at Anthrogenica, i’m going to copy and paste the last paragraph in one of posts. It kind of answers your response, I am open to the possibility that some specific branches of J2 will be involved, with the exception of J2b-L283 which definitely was an IE marker.

    Last point I want to make, now the reason why phylogenetic trees are very important for the case of J2 is because it makes J2 a very poor candidate for IE or PIE, there aren’t really any lineages in J2 (one exception) that expanded and produced so many lineages like R1b-M269 or R1a-M417 or a star like pattern expansion. People also forget that around the same time that IE was diffusing there was also the major expansion of the Kura Araxes Culture which was not IE, if people doubt this well the Hurrians are an offshoot and the current Nakh speakers (Chechens and Ingush) are descendants of them. What can be seen and fits much better is that many branches of J2a, especially under PF5116 (ex. Z467, Z6065, Z7671, Z500, etc...) start have expansion during the Kura Araxes Culture timeline. They were not restricted to Kura Araxes as J2b-M205 with Semitic speakers and J2a-F3133 and pre-Iranian civilizations of Iran (Jiroft, Elam, etx...). Also very likely to have been involved with Mesopotamian ethnogensis we’ll have to wait and see for results. Now the exception with regards to J2 and IE, as I have said for quite awhile that J2b-L283 matches and has direct ancient dna evidence to be an IE marker, and similar to how J2a-Z6048 and J2a-Z6048 are unique to be Farmer lineages, J2b-L283 is completely unique its in own aspects in the J2 tree. Now is it possible that some J2a branches could have been part of Southern and Eastern IE expansions, yes it is absolutely possible but it will be specific lineages and the ancestor of this lineage was likely a non IE speaker like Hattic, Hurrian, Minoan, etc... what do these Hittites genomes tell us, in my opinion they reaffirm the importance of Maykop in the whole ethnogensis of PIE.

    Yes, makes lots of sense even if you loose me at parts. :)

    Nahk speakers descendents of Kura-araxes?? - Don't get it.
    Kura -araxes not IE? - possibly but difficult to assert.
    Maykop important for PIE ? - not a chance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    Are people even reading this paper? Because they should.

    There are no "Anatolian materials". These are Assyrian merchant records from Ebla and Kanes.
    This is what he was referring to:

    "There is an extensive linguistic supplement to the paper itself, found here:

    G. Kroonen, G. Barjamovic, M. Peyrot, Linguistic supplement to Damgaard et al. 2018: Early Indo-European Languages, Anatolian, Tocharian and Indo-Iranian. 10.5281/zenodo.1240524 (9 May 2018).

    It is at least as important as the genetic paper in terms of discussion, I think.

    The authors of the supplement summarise the literature on the topic:
    1) There is no consensus on the Balkan or Caucasian route for the Anatolian languages, though there are arguments that lead to a preference for the Balkan route among some linguists.
    2) The languages are diverged for at least a millenium before we get the written records of their varieties (Palaic, Luwian, Hittite etc)
    3) The linguistic evidence does not indicate mass migration or elite conquest, because the language characteristics are relatively in line with the language area, rather it appears "diffusional".
    4) New evidence is presented from the Eblaite state with personal names from "Armi" (we don't know where that is, probably a statelet under the control of Ebla) with Anatolian derivation, in the Turkey-Syria border, 500 years before the earliest attestation of the other Anatolian languages in 2500BC (which therefore push the split of the language group even further back). These personal names also appear in Assyrian records about trade with "Armi". These names occur contemporaneous with Yamnaya, so the hypothesis that even Anatolian derives from Yamnaya can be safely rejected."

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