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Thread: Where did the Anatolian branch of Indo-European originate?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    Where did the Anatolian branch of Indo-European originate?

    Moderation note: This thread was split from 137 ancient human genomes from across the Eurasian steppes.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    Our results also suggest distinct migrations bringing West Eurasian ancestry into South Asia before and after but not at the time of Yamnaya culture. We find no evidence of steppe ancestry in Bronze Age Anatolia from when Indo-European languages are attested there. Thus, in contrast to Europe, Early Bronze Age Yamnaya-related migrations had limited direct genetic impact in Asia
    They disprove any involvement of Yamnaya in major IE migrations but they stick with it. Realy I'm considering if steppitis is a real illness.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 11-05-18 at 19:27.
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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Can people stop with the exaggeration?

    They found one Hittite sample.* You can't disprove an entire theory on one sample, although I admit it's suggestive that no EHG like material has yet been found anywhere in Bronze Age Anatolia. Indo-European speakers were all over the place.

    Even if the Proto-PIE developed in Anatolia and then moved north to the steppe where the other PIE languages developed, it doesn't invalidate the tie between the Indo-European languages and the steppe.

    I've been the first one to say that a lot of the analysis was like "IE for dummies", but that there is some tie is undeniable. It's just not how people have been describing it.

    *It appears to be G-M406, yes?

    I can't vouch for the accuracy of the below information. If it started moving 2000 BC into southern Europe I don't know why the harping on the Phoenicians, especially as from the analysis they're quoting the similarities are to Turkish and Armenian sub-clades. Whether they got into Italy directly or via Greece I have no idea.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G-M406

    "The sharing of common ancestors much farther back in time (perhaps 3,500 years ago) among some of these samples does not provide information so useful because the migration westward could have occurred anytime in the earlier period. The finding of likely G-M406 samples in the ancient isolated highlands of Sardinia, however, suggests the arrival of G-M406 in that island prior to the arrival of the Phoenicians. The latter began a Sardinian coastal presence about 3,000 years ago.
    There is currently no information to explain the dispersion of G-M406 to the southern Indian area."

    Ed. A few Hittite samples.
    Last edited by Angela; 10-05-18 at 03:58.


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    Lol this is what one commenter over on anthrogenica posted:

    "OOEET is dead, the Hittite samples are out, just a mixture of CHG and Anatolian farmers, zero EHG. For the people who have been insisting EHG has anything to do with Indoeuropeans it's over. They're also J2 and G2, as I've been saying all the south Caucasus Y-DNA like J2, R1b-L23, G2, T, etc. have very similar distribution in Europe, example:



    It came with Indoeuropeans, it wasn't there before. IE moved westwards from the south Caucasus homeland into Anatolia then southeast Europe then south France, where the R1b founder effect that gave birth to Bell Beaker happened. From that point on Centum languages were spread to northern Europe only with R1b instead of the full spectrum of IE Y-DNA.
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    If all the non-Anatolian IE languages expanded from the 'steppe', then we can talk about 'a tie between the Indo-European languages and the steppe'.
    But, that isn't proven and it is likely false.



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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    They disprove any involvement of Yamnaya in major IE migrations but they stick with it. Realy I'm considering if steppitis is a real illness.
    IE probably moved out of the Steppe into the Middle East 6000 years ago, so if they focused on 6000-5000 years ago they're going to find cold adapted Asian lineages that moved in during a little ice age.

    I haven't closely looked at the study, no Y-DNA? Weird.

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    I think no steppe in a bronze age Anatolian sample isn't a surprise at this point. Not sure what this says about PIE though.

    @Angela Looks like the first evidence of domestic horses is in Northern Anatolia around 2700BC, associated with Bulgarian cultures, dare I say Anatolian IE speakers? I really really want to see who these people were. They need to sample the people now. Someone get on the phone.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 11-05-18 at 19:42.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Lol this is what one commenter over on anthrogenica posted:

    "OOEET is dead, the Hittite samples are out, just a mixture of CHG and Anatolian farmers, zero EHG. For the people who have been insisting EHG has anything to do with Indoeuropeans it's over. They're also J2 and G2, as I've been saying all the south Caucasus Y-DNA like J2, R1b-L23, G2, T, etc. have very similar distribution in Europe, example:



    It came with Indoeuropeans, it wasn't there before. IE moved westwards from the south Caucasus homeland into Anatolia then southeast Europe then south France, where the R1b founder effect that gave birth to Bell Beaker happened. From that point on Centum languages were spread to northern Europe only with R1b instead of the full spectrum of IE Y-DNA.
    There is indeed a link in the spread of G2a-M406, J1-Z1828, J2a1-PF5116 and T1a-P77 (and perhaps some R1b-L23), but that wasn't with the Indo-Europeans. It was the contemporary Kura-Araxes culture that spread these lineages, as I have explained in my haplogroup pages (for each of these haplogroups) for a few years now. The more detailed the Y-DNA phylogeny becomes, the more it corroborates this theory.
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Can people stop with the exaggeration?

    They found one Hittite sample.* You can't disprove an entire theory on one sample, although I admit it's suggestive that no EHG like material has yet been found anywhere in Bronze Age Anatolia. Indo-European speakers were all over the place.

    Even if the Proto-PIE developed in Anatolia and then moved north to the steppe where the other PIE languages developed, it doesn't invalidate the tie between the Indo-European languages and the steppe.

    I've been the first one to say that a lot of the analysis was like "IE for dummies", but that there is some tie is undeniable. It's just not how people have been describing it.

    *It appears to be G-M406, yes?

    I can't vouch for the accuracy of the below information. If it started moving 2000 BC into southern Europe I don't know why the harping on the Phoenicians, especially as from the analysis they're quoting the similarities are to Turkish and Armenian sub-clades. Whether they got into Italy directly or via Greece I have no idea.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G-M406

    "The sharing of common ancestors much farther back in time (perhaps 3,500 years ago) among some of these samples does not provide information so useful because the migration westward could have occurred anytime in the earlier period. The finding of likely G-M406 samples in the ancient isolated highlands of Sardinia, however, suggests the arrival of G-M406 in that island prior to the arrival of the Phoenicians. The latter began a Sardinian coastal presence about 3,000 years ago.
    There is currently no information to explain the dispersion of G-M406 to the southern Indian area."

    Ed. A few Hittite samples.
    I am not sure where you found that that Hittite sample was G-M406 as I couldn't find it in the supplementary data. But if it is, G-M406 is an Anatolian lineage peaking in central and northeastern Anatolia. I have theorised that it spread with the Kura-Araxes culture to the Greek islands (and with the Greeks to southern Italy), as the Minoans almost certainly descended from a Kura-Araxes expansion.

    If the other Hittite sample is J2a (I also couldn't find it), it would be from anywhere in the northern Middle East.

    However the fact that these samples possessed Anatolian and Iranian farmers admixture with EHG and that they do not have any Y-DNA associated with Yamna or any other Bronze Age IE culture (R1a, R1b-L23, I2a2a-L701, E-V13, G2a-U1, G2a-Z1816, J2b2a-L283) is a good indication that these samples were in fact local Anatolian people assimilated by the Hittite invaders, and not Hittite themselves. Contrarily to what happened in Europe between 3000 and 1500 BCE, Indo-European migrations to Anatolia must have had a much more minor genetic impact, because Anatolian cultures had the time were more advanced and more densely populated than Europe (esp. Western and Northern Europe). The Hittites were merely a small ruling class, like the Goths in Italy and Spain. I doubt that they represented more than 5% of the population (or overall DNA in the gene pool after they mixed with locals) of their empire.

    Additionally the Hittites arrived very late (1650 BCE) and were just an offshoot of other Anatolian IE speakers from Western Anatolian (Trojans, Luwians, Lydians, Lycians), who might have been in Anatolia for centuries, and before that in the Balkans, perhaps since c. 4000 BCE, giving them over two millennia to mix with Neolithic Anatolian/Balkanic populations. So it's hardly surprising if we find little Steppe DNA among the Hittites. In fact, there should be less of it than among Indo-Aryans in India (10-20%) because the Proto-Anatolians clearly left the Steppe much earlier (around 4000 BCE) than the Proto-Indo-Iranians (around 2000 BCE), yet the Hittites appear c. 1650 BCE, exactly at the same time as the Indo-Aryans in northern Pakistan and NW India!

    What is going to be interesting is to see if the Anatolian IE tribes until the days of the Hittites also practised some sort of endogamy. I doubt it considering how all other Indo-European people freely mixed with conquered populations. We will know it once they find R1b-L23 (or other potential PIE) lineages among Hittite samples. If they have anything more than 5% of Steppe DNA, then endogamy might have been practised at least for a few centuries. If there is substantial Steppe DNA (say over 30%) then endogamy would have started very early after the Proto-Anatolians left the Steppe. But again, I very much doubt it.

    The bottom line is that the two "Hittite" samples have non-IE Y-DNA and therefore can be expected to be assimilated indigenes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Lol this is what one commenter over on anthrogenica posted:

    "OOEET is dead, the Hittite samples are out, just a mixture of CHG and Anatolian farmers, zero EHG. For the people who have been insisting EHG has anything to do with Indoeuropeans it's over. They're also J2 and G2, as I've been saying all the south Caucasus Y-DNA like J2, R1b-L23, G2, T, etc. have very similar distribution in Europe, example:



    It came with Indoeuropeans, it wasn't there before. IE moved westwards from the south Caucasus homeland into Anatolia then southeast Europe then south France, where the R1b founder effect that gave birth to Bell Beaker happened. From that point on Centum languages were spread to northern Europe only with R1b instead of the full spectrum of IE Y-DNA.
    Lol Olympus Mons...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Can people stop with the exaggeration?

    They found one Hittite sample.* You can't disprove an entire theory on one sample, although I admit it's suggestive that no EHG like material has yet been found anywhere in Bronze Age Anatolia. Indo-European speakers were all over the place.

    Even if the Proto-PIE developed in Anatolia and then moved north to the steppe where the other PIE languages developed, it doesn't invalidate the tie between the Indo-European languages and the steppe.

    I've been the first one to say that a lot of the analysis was like "IE for dummies", but that there is some tie is undeniable. It's just not how people have been describing it.

    *It appears to be G-M406, yes?

    I can't vouch for the accuracy of the below information. If it started moving 2000 BC into southern Europe I don't know why the harping on the Phoenicians, especially as from the analysis they're quoting the similarities are to Turkish and Armenian sub-clades. Whether they got into Italy directly or via Greece I have no idea.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G-M406

    "The sharing of common ancestors much farther back in time (perhaps 3,500 years ago) among some of these samples does not provide information so useful because the migration westward could have occurred anytime in the earlier period. The finding of likely G-M406 samples in the ancient isolated highlands of Sardinia, however, suggests the arrival of G-M406 in that island prior to the arrival of the Phoenicians. The latter began a Sardinian coastal presence about 3,000 years ago.
    There is currently no information to explain the dispersion of G-M406 to the southern Indian area."

    Ed. A few Hittite samples.
    Sardinians were in Crete around the 14-13th century bc (Kommos) and in Cyprus (Pyla Kokkinokremos) around 1230-1170 bc, Cretans and Cypriots were also present in Sardinia around that time (Antigori, San Sperate, etc). To get an idea of how intense the exchange between Sardinia and the Eastern Mediterranean was during the late bronze age look for instance at the distribution of Cypriot oxhide ingots. And around that same period Sardinians learned the lost wax technique and iron smelting likely from Cyprus and adopted a lot of new Cypriot tools and technologies which the other Central Mediterranean peoples didn't adopt.
    Last edited by Pygmalion; 10-05-18 at 11:26.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    There is indeed a link in the spread of G2a-M406, J1-Z1828, J2a1-PF5116 and T1a-P77 (and perhaps some R1b-L23), but that wasn't with the Indo-Europeans. It was the contemporary Kura-Araxes culture that spread these lineages, as I have explained in my haplogroup pages (for each of these haplogroups) for a few years now. The more detailed the Y-DNA phylogeny becomes, the more it corroborates this theory.
    Interesting.

    On a tangentially related note, I have read your haplogroup page on R1b and i'm curious about PF7562. For PF7562 you theorize that it may be either an early Steppe migration to the Balkans dating from the Sredny Stog period or related to the Hittites.

    I'm a bit perplexed as to its balkan distribution and what it means:



    Source: http://r1b-pf7562.blogspot.fr/

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    If all the non-Anatolian IE languages expanded from the 'steppe', then we can talk about 'a tie between the Indo-European languages and the steppe'.
    But, that isn't proven and it is likely false.
    It's actually the opposite, in that it's very likely that all Non-Anatolian IE languages expanded from the steppe. And in fact Anatolian likely came from the steppe as well.

    Anatolian is the possible exception that has made this question ever more complicated.
    Last edited by holderlin; 10-05-18 at 19:20.

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    As i said earlier, David Reich's whiteboard had no movements towards Anatolia and they have much more data than anyone else, which they have not shared yet.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Lol this is what one commenter over on anthrogenica posted:

    "OOEET is dead, the Hittite samples are out, just a mixture of CHG and Anatolian farmers, zero EHG. For the people who have been insisting EHG has anything to do with Indoeuropeans it's over. They're also J2 and G2, as I've been saying all the south Caucasus Y-DNA like J2, R1b-L23, G2, T, etc. have very similar distribution in Europe, example:



    It came with Indoeuropeans, it wasn't there before. IE moved westwards from the south Caucasus homeland into Anatolia then southeast Europe then south France, where the R1b founder effect that gave birth to Bell Beaker happened. From that point on Centum languages were spread to northern Europe only with R1b instead of the full spectrum of IE Y-DNA.
    The ONLY evidence of this so far is the recent Z2103 findings. Modern day distributions have been proven to show little correlation to ancient distributions, this being more true the further back we go.

    There is Caucasian admixture on the Steppe well before any evidence of contact with the Caucuses. It increased at the beginning of the Bronze Age, but every population in the Old World began to admix significantly as we moved toward the Bronze Age. This fact combined with the unassailable continuity of the material culture on the steppe through the Bronze Age leaves me unconvinced that this increase in Caucasian signals a linguistic shift. It's possible, but it's less likely in comparison to known examples.

    Nearly everywhere we see a linguistic change in pre-industrial populations, e.g. Anglo Saxon migrations to Britain, Roman introduced Latin in France, Germanic into Central Europe etc. (there are countless examples), the cultural changes are extremely emphatic. A more contemporaneous example of a massive cultural imposition would be the Anatolian Farmers into Europe. Of course we can't prove anything linguistic one way or another in this case, but it still exemplifies a far more drastic cultural imposition in a pre-historic context that can be used as an example of what we'd like to see on the steppe if IE speakers were imposing there language with a Caucasian population. Language imposition is a big deal. All this hand waving about South Caucuses PIE, is just that.

    I don't know if we have enough Anatolian DNA to use that as evidence of a Non-steppe origin of the IE Anatolian Languages, nor do I know how exactly to interpret this given what we know about the Hittites. I'm willing to say that "so far Anatolia looks to have nothing to do with Steppe IE during the period where we'd expect IE to have been spoken," but there are historical Mesopotamian records of non-IE Anatolian languages. They are plain as day. We see nothing about Hittites or otherwise Anatolian IE speakers until Hittites arrive on the historical scene later. They appear to be intrusive to the region in the historical records.

    I think it's possible and I'm becoming more willing to entertain the notion of a South Caucuses PIE, but it's still big massive speculative project at this point.
    Last edited by holderlin; 10-05-18 at 19:24.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    There is indeed a link in the spread of G2a-M406, J1-Z1828, J2a1-PF5116 and T1a-P77 (and perhaps some R1b-L23), but that wasn't with the Indo-Europeans. It was the contemporary Kura-Araxes culture that spread these lineages, as I have explained in my haplogroup pages (for each of these haplogroups) for a few years now. The more detailed the Y-DNA phylogeny becomes, the more it corroborates this theory.
    Exactly. It's strange that people are willing to completely dismiss the emergence of Caucasian languages, so that they can force a speculative PIE in the Caucuses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I am not sure where you found that that Hittite sample was G-M406 as I couldn't find it in the supplementary data. But if it is, G-M406 is an Anatolian lineage peaking in central and northeastern Anatolia. I have theorised that it spread with the Kura-Araxes culture to the Greek islands (and with the Greeks to southern Italy), as the Minoans almost certainly descended from a Kura-Araxes expansion.

    If the other Hittite sample is J2a (I also couldn't find it), it would be from anywhere in the northern Middle East.

    However the fact that these samples possessed Anatolian and Iranian farmers admixture with EHG and that they do not have any Y-DNA associated with Yamna or any other Bronze Age IE culture (R1a, R1b-L23, I2a2a-L701, E-V13, G2a-U1, G2a-Z1816, J2b2a-L283) is a good indication that these samples were in fact local Anatolian people assimilated by the Hittite invaders, and not Hittite themselves. Contrarily to what happened in Europe between 3000 and 1500 BCE, Indo-European migrations to Anatolia must have had a much more minor genetic impact, because Anatolian cultures had the time were more advanced and more densely populated than Europe (esp. Western and Northern Europe). The Hittites were merely a small ruling class, like the Goths in Italy and Spain. I doubt that they represented more than 5% of the population (or overall DNA in the gene pool after they mixed with locals) of their empire.

    Additionally the Hittites arrived very late (1650 BCE) and were just an offshoot of other Anatolian IE speakers from Western Anatolian (Trojans, Luwians, Lydians, Lycians), who might have been in Anatolia for centuries, and before that in the Balkans, perhaps since c. 4000 BCE, giving them over two millennia to mix with Neolithic Anatolian/Balkanic populations. So it's hardly surprising if we find little Steppe DNA among the Hittites. In fact, there should be less of it than among Indo-Aryans in India (10-20%) because the Proto-Anatolians clearly left the Steppe much earlier (around 4000 BCE) than the Proto-Indo-Iranians (around 2000 BCE), yet the Hittites appear c. 1650 BCE, exactly at the same time as the Indo-Aryans in northern Pakistan and NW India!

    What is going to be interesting is to see if the Anatolian IE tribes until the days of the Hittites also practised some sort of endogamy. I doubt it considering how all other Indo-European people freely mixed with conquered populations. We will know it once they find R1b-L23 (or other potential PIE) lineages among Hittite samples. If they have anything more than 5% of Steppe DNA, then endogamy might have been practised at least for a few centuries. If there is substantial Steppe DNA (say over 30%) then endogamy would have started very early after the Proto-Anatolians left the Steppe. But again, I very much doubt it.

    The bottom line is that the two "Hittite" samples have non-IE Y-DNA and therefore can be expected to be assimilated indigenes.
    Well said. We already have a Yamnaya grave in the Balkans that is like 50% Anatolian Farmer and that is pretty much right on the steppe interface. Why would we expect Anatolian speakers to have any more? With the right samples we should see some, but there's no reason to expect a significant portion, nor to expect that it was widespread in Anatolia during the era in question.

    And the Hittites themselves were known to absorb the gods of their conquered subjects. It was a fundamental part of their identity, which is consistent with the notion that they mixed ALOT with anyone they encountered. They were called the people of 1000 gods for a reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Lol this is what one commenter over on anthrogenica posted:

    "OOEET is dead, the Hittite samples are out, just a mixture of CHG and Anatolian farmers, zero EHG. For the people who have been insisting EHG has anything to do with Indoeuropeans it's over. They're also J2 and G2, as I've been saying all the south Caucasus Y-DNA like J2, R1b-L23, G2, T, etc. have very similar distribution in Europe, example:



    It came with Indoeuropeans, it wasn't there before. IE moved westwards from the south Caucasus homeland into Anatolia then southeast Europe then south France, where the R1b founder effect that gave birth to Bell Beaker happened. From that point on Centum languages were spread to northern Europe only with R1b instead of the full spectrum of IE Y-DNA.
    Linguistically it does not make a lot of sense to associate the spread of Italo-Celtic, Germanic and other European IE branches with the supposed (if the lack of EHG in any part of Hittite or Luwian-inhabited Bronze Age Anatolia comes to be confirmed) expansion of the Anatolian branch. If those non-steppic/northern IE branches were demonstrably closer to Anatolian than to the steppic/northern IE branches like Indo-Iranian or Balto-Slavic, that could even be argued, but what has been demonstrated is exactly the opposite. If anything, from a linguistic point of view, that only reinforces the hypothesis of a "two stages" development of PIE, with its earliest existence in a region different from its latest homeland and focus of wider expansion. The southern homeland wouldn't have been as successful in the long term outside of the northern portions of West Asia, whereas the northern and later homeland (which wasn't necessarily centered only in one region and could've actually been very substructured) would've been responsible for the vast majority of the IE expansion. That fits the pattern of IE divergence better than assuming that the Indo-Europeanization of Western & Central Europe came directly from the Caucasus/West Asia, in which case we'd expect those languages to be much more apart from the "other", northern IE families, because their origins would've been very early on before the "proto-PIE" people separated in different waves of migration.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    It is pointless in using modern haplogroup maps to talk about ancient migration!
    why not do maps of ancient samples found , we can do the range from roman empire to back from there
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Scientists don't work from fixed ideas and then reject anything that doesn't comport with those ideas.

    If samples from Royal Hittite tombs are tested and there is no or extremely low steppe, then Hittite is autochthonous, not an import from the steppe via the Balkans.

    You work from hypotheses, and follow the evidence. You don't start with the conclusion and do tons of special pleading to reduce the significance of the evidence that you have.

    All of that said, two samples do not answer the question, so we have to wait.

    As for the Huns, no need to speculate any longer. There are lots of admixture analyses for them, as there are for the various Scythian groups. It pays to read the paper and the supplementary materials as well.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    From Iosif Lazaridis:

    Iosif Lazaridis@iosif_lazaridis May 6More



    - The steppe hypothesis predicts some genetic input from eastern Europe (EHG) to Anatolia.- Bronze Age Anatolians (Lazaridis et al. 2017) from historically IE-speaking Pisidia lack EHG; more samples obviously needed


    Iosif Lazaridis@iosif_lazaridis May 6More



    Possibilities:1- Additional Anatolian samples will have EHG: consistent with steppe PIE2- Additional Anatolian samples will not have EHG, then either:



    More



    If additional Anatolian samples lack EHG, then either:1- Steppe not PIE homeland2- Steppe PIE homeland but linguistic impact in Anatolia vastly greater than genetic impact


    Iosif Lazaridis@iosif_lazaridis May 6More



    Tentative steppe->Anatolia movements reach Balkans early (Mathieson et al. 2018) and Armenia (some EHG in Lazaridis et al. 2016). But not the last leg to Anatolia_ChL (Lazaridis et al. 2016) or Anatolia_BA (Lazaridis et al. 2017).



    More



    If Anatolians consistently don't have EHG, steppe PIE is very difficult to affirm; Near Eastern alternative likely (contributing CHG/Iran_N-related ancestry to both western Anatolia/steppe)If Anatolians have EHG, one could further investigate by what route they got it.


    In addition, why all this emphasis only on Hittites. Indo-European was spoken all over Anatolia. Where the heck are the samples with steppe?

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Also its false to assert some sort of linguistic consensus as if this issue is entirely resolved and that this new data is totally not corroborating linguistic evidence. Check the discrepancies between these:







    And about the so called reconstructions of words for geography here is another clear example with a word as central as "Sea"

    From the book "The Indo-European Controversy" :

    "Another controversial PIE reconstruction is the root *mori, which presumably
    means ‘sea’. If this term is indeed traceable all the way back to PIE, then
    by the logic of linguistic paleontology one might assume that the speakers of
    PIE must have lived near a large body of water of some type. Note, however,
    that the relevant cognates come from the northwestern Indo-European
    languages: Lithuanian māres, Old Church Slavonic morje, Latin mare, Old
    Irish muir, Gothic marei. No relevant cognates are found in the Anatolian,
    Tocharian, Greek, Armenian, Albanian, or even Indo-Iranian branches of the
    family. The Greek word thalassa ‘sea’, for example, almost certainly comes
    from a pre-Indo-European substrate. As a result of such absences, the root
    *mori cannot be reliably reconstructed all the way back to PIE. It is possible
    that the Indo-European branches that lack a word for ‘sea’ once had it but later
    lost it, perhaps by acquiring it from the local substratum language, as has been
    proposed for the Greek thalassa (as discussed in Chapter 7). Alternatively, it is
    possible that the root *mori ‘sea’ was coined by – or borrowed into – the
    common ancestor of a particular branch of the Indo-European family.
    As it turns out, determining whether a word that is absent in many descendant
    languages stems from PIE is often a difficult matter. In the case of ‘sea’, the issue
    is further complicated by the fact that even in the Germanic and Celtic languages
    we find other roots meaning the same thing, as evident in the English word sea
    itself. Moreover, some of the roots for ‘sea’ can also refer to other types of water
    bodies. For example, the German cognate of the English sea, See can refer to
    either ‘lake’ or ‘sea’, whereas German Meer refers to either ‘sea’ or ‘ocean’
    while the Dutch word meer generally means ‘lake’. Scottish Gaelic loch refers to
    either ‘fresh-water lake’ or ‘salt-water sea inlet’. Similarly, Russian more, just
    like its English counterpart sea, can also refer to a large landlocked body of
    water, such as the Aral Sea, the Caspian Sea, the Dead Sea, or the Sea of Galilee.
    Thus, it is possible that PIE speakers were familiar not with the sea in the sense
    of the ocean, but rather with a large interior body of water"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Scientists don't work from fixed ideas and then reject anything that doesn't comport with those ideas.

    If samples from Royal Hittite tombs are tested and there is no or extremely low steppe, then Hittite is autochthonous, not an import from the steppe via the Balkans.

    You work from hypotheses, and follow the evidence. You don't start with the conclusion and do tons of special pleading to reduce the significance of the evidence that you have.

    All of that said, two samples do not answer the question, so we have to wait.

    As for the Huns, no need to speculate any longer. There are lots of admixture analyses for them, as there are for the various Scythian groups. It pays to read the paper and the supplementary materials as well.
    Not autochthonous, but most likely from the Caucasus. If they were authochthonous then they wouldn't have been subjugating the Hattic people there before them and using all their place names for the area. The paper mentions the problems with this that I'm sure everyone else is thinking about

    "We cannot at this point reject a scenario in which the introduction of the Anatolian IE languages into Anatolia was coupled with the CHG-derived admixture prior to 3700 BCE, but note that this is contrary to the standard view that PIE arose in the steppe north of the Caucasus (4) and that CHG ancestry is also associated with several non-IE-speaking groups, historical and current. Indeed, our data are also consistent with the first speakers of Anatolian IE coming to the region by way of commercial contacts and small-scale movement during the Bronze Age."

    "Among comparative linguists, a Balkan route for the introduction of Anatolian IE is generally considered more likely than a passage through the Caucasus, due, for example, to greater Anatolian IE presence and language diversity in the west"

    I do agree though, it would probably be more constructive to get DNA from Luwian speakers further west from before the Hittite empire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    In addition, why all this emphasis only on Hittites. Indo-European was spoken all over Anatolia. Where the heck are the samples with steppe?
    https://s9.postimg.cc/i3g9h52zz/k6xpucn.jpg

    Only starts to be seen at Iron Age Anatolia. Way too late.

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    From Iosif Lazaridis:

    Iosif Lazaridis@iosif_lazaridis May 6More



    - The steppe hypothesis predicts some genetic input from eastern Europe (EHG) to Anatolia.- Bronze Age Anatolians (Lazaridis et al. 2017) from historically IE-speaking Pisidia lack EHG; more samples obviously needed


    Iosif Lazaridis@iosif_lazaridis May 6More



    Possibilities:1- Additional Anatolian samples will have EHG: consistent with steppe PIE2- Additional Anatolian samples will not have EHG, then either:



    More



    If additional Anatolian samples lack EHG, then either:1- Steppe not PIE homeland2- Steppe PIE homeland but linguistic impact in Anatolia vastly greater than genetic impact


    Iosif Lazaridis@iosif_lazaridis May 6More



    Tentative steppe->Anatolia movements reach Balkans early (Mathieson et al. 2018) and Armenia (some EHG in Lazaridis et al. 2016). But not the last leg to Anatolia_ChL (Lazaridis et al. 2016) or Anatolia_BA (Lazaridis et al. 2017).



    More



    If Anatolians consistently don't have EHG, steppe PIE is very difficult to affirm; Near Eastern alternative likely (contributing CHG/Iran_N-related ancestry to both western Anatolia/steppe)If Anatolians have EHG, one could further investigate by what route they got it.

    That's how scientists approach problems like this, for anyone who is interested.

    In addition, why all this emphasis only on Hittites. Indo-European was spoken all over Anatolia. Where the heck are the samples with steppe?


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    2 out of 5 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    In addition, why all this emphasis only on Hittites. Indo-European was spoken all over Anatolia. Where the heck are the samples with steppe?
    It wasn't spoken all over Anatolia until classical times.

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