Where did the Anatolian branch of Indo-European originate?

[Angela]

my last post in this depigmentation discussion

"Nobody said or implied that Ukrainians are dark skinned. The comparison was to show how much darker the Yamnaya were than the present inhabitants of Ukraine."
what i ment was that ancient ukrainian samples on the site of genetiker were not dark too.

"If genetiker's analysis of the depigmentation snps present in the Globular Amphora people is correct, the European farmers adjacent to the steppe were much lighter than steppe people. Yamnaya people were predominantly dark haired, dark eyed, and not very fair skinned."

can you give me a direct link where he compares the depigmentation snps of both of these people?

Just put pigmentation on the search bar in Genetiker.

 

[Ailchu]

Just put pigmentation on the search bar in Genetiker.

then i don't see evidence why EEF's adjacent to steppe were lighter than steppe people. genetiker wrote this however
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/03/07/phenotype-snps-from-prehistoric-europe/

"But the paper didn’t report any results for the light skin mutation in SLC24A5, and as the results below show, that mutation was fixed in the Yamna population of the Pontic-Caspian steppe. One wonders if the authors of the paper actually did test for the SLC24A5 mutation, but withheld the results because they didn’t create the desired impression."

"The fact that the mutations for light hair and light eyes were rare or absent in the Yamna samples leads me to believe that the Thracians and the Greeks were derived from some other R1b-Z2103 population..."

"I think that the Thracians and Greeks were instead derived from a more western R1b-Z2103 population, located somewhere directly to the north of the Balkan peninsula. I think that these people moved south into the Balkans and Greece at the start of the Bronze Age"

so probably from the region that is now ukraine. and these people were probably not darker than south eastern european farmers.
and as a response to your last comment about WHGs beeing darker than EEF's. it was never my intention to make south eastern EEF's darker than they were. they were quite light it seems. but i see no reason to believe that steppe populations should have been darker.

 

[Silesian]

where did the scientists who found the steppe people to be of darker complexion than most of Europe go wrong?

At one time science papers were coming out with the conclusion- R1b-V88 originated in Central-West-Africa.
I don't want any hurt feelings. Some of the posters are so anti-European biased and or pro African and or pro-Middle Eastern bias, they don't even see it. Ironic since the forum is labeled as a Eupedia -forum. At a minimum should be neutral-just my two cents.

 

[Angela]

then i don't see evidence why EEF's adjacent to steppe were lighter than steppe people. genetiker wrote this however
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/03/07/phenotype-snps-from-prehistoric-europe/

"But the paper didn’t report any results for the light skin mutation in SLC24A5, and as the results below show, that mutation was fixed in the Yamna population of the Pontic-Caspian steppe. One wonders if the authors of the paper actually did test for the SLC24A5 mutation, but withheld the results because they didn’t create the desired impression."

"The fact that the mutations for light hair and light eyes were rare or absent in the Yamna samples leads me to believe that the Thracians and the Greeks were derived from some other R1b-Z2103 population..."

"I think that the Thracians and Greeks were instead derived from a more western R1b-Z2103 population, located somewhere directly to the north of the Balkan peninsula. I think that these people moved south into the Balkans and Greece at the start of the Bronze Age"

so probably from the region that is now ukraine. and these people were probably not darker than south eastern european farmers.
and as a response to your last comment about WHGs beeing darker than EEF's. it was never my intention to make south eastern EEF's darker than they were. they were quite light it seems. but i see no reason to believe that steppe populations should have been darker.

It's immaterial to me whether you can understand scientific material or what you believe. The GAC, who are NEOLITHIC farmer people, are LIGHTER than the Yamnaya IF Genetiker's calls and predictions are correct for GAC.

Go back and read the material again, and look at the data on the actual snps, at least the three major ones, the snps for GAC and the snps for Yamnaya, not the rantings of Genetiker.

As for the Mycenaeans, where have you been? They were DARK! Find the paper. This portrait of the Mycenaean Griffin Warrior is probably close to the reality.

Opinions unsupported by scientific data aren't worth a tinker's damn. That goes for you, too, Silesian. DATA, not idiotic conspiracy theories, no matter the topic. If the data was ever on your side in these discussions you'd post it. It isn't, so you resort to these silly comments. This has nothing to do with old theories about paleolithic Europeans: it has to do with SNPS found in Yamnaya and GAC specimens, among others.

However, don't post on here about it again. It's off-topic, and I was wrong to let the discussion go on as long as it did. There's a lot of threads on pigmentation, including steppe pigmentation. Does no one know how to use the search engine here?

 

[Silesian]

my last post in this depigmentation discussion

"Nobody said or implied that Ukrainians are dark skinned. The comparison was to show how much darker the Yamnaya were than the present inhabitants of Ukraine."
what i ment was that ancient ukrainian samples on the site of genetiker were not dark too.

"If genetiker's analysis of the depigmentation snps present in the Globular Amphora people is correct, the European farmers adjacent to the steppe were much lighter than steppe people. Yamnaya people were predominantly dark haired, dark eyed, and not very fair skinned."

can you give me a direct link where he compares the depigmentation snps of both of these people? EEFs adjacent to steppe and steppe adjacent to EEF's.

Some points of interest.
Beaker_Hungary

Barcin_N,49
Yamnaya_Samara,31.8
Narva_Lithuania,11.4
Blatterhole_HG,6
Ukraine_Mesolithic,1.8

[1] distance%=4.9659

Beaker_Hungary_no_steppe

Barcin_N,76.2
Blatterhole_HG,23.8

[1] distance%=2.4992

Beaker_Hungary_outlier

Yamnaya_Samara,76
Barcin_N,19
Koros_HG,4.4
Blatterhole_HG,0.6

http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2017/07/szigetszentmiklos-cemetery-santas-six.html
Yamnaya/Bell Beaker samples;Santa's Six Foot Elves

I2787+I7044 are the R1b-Z2103>9samples above with Steppe ancestry. I2741 ydna-I2- same as Globular Amphora- is the sample with nearly 0% Steppe[modeled Blatterhole-R1b and Barcin]. I think the ginger Bell Beaker is the one with the really high Steppe-Samarra score.Urdmurts have red hair-see link-https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29950844

.
Here is an excellent tool/link interactive map to get an idea the range and distance between Yamnaya-Afanasievo-Bell Beaker.
http://homeland.ku.dk/

 

[Angela]

Some points of interest.
Beaker_Hungary

Barcin_N,49
Yamnaya_Samara,31.8
Narva_Lithuania,11.4
Blatterhole_HG,6
Ukraine_Mesolithic,1.8

[1] distance%=4.9659

Beaker_Hungary_no_steppe

Barcin_N,76.2
Blatterhole_HG,23.8

[1] distance%=2.4992

Beaker_Hungary_outlier

Yamnaya_Samara,76
Barcin_N,19
Koros_HG,4.4
Blatterhole_HG,0.6

http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2017/07/szigetszentmiklos-cemetery-santas-six.html
Yamnaya/Bell Beaker samples;Santa's Six Foot Elves

I2787+I7044 are the R1b-Z2103>9samples above with Steppe ancestry. I2741 ydna-I2- same as Globular Amphora- is the sample with nearly 0% Steppe[modeled Blatterhole-R1b and Barcin]. I think the ginger Bell Beaker is the one with the really high Steppe-Samarra score.Urdmurts have red hair-see link-https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29950844

.
Here is an excellent tool/link interactive map to get an idea the range and distance between Yamnaya-Afanasievo-Bell Beaker.
http://homeland.ku.dk/

How many times does it have to be said that Bell Beaker DOES NOT EQUAL Yamnaya. They are two different groups. Bell Beaker is about half EEF.

Therefore, this data is IRRELEVANT.

If you can show a side by side comparison of Globular Amphora snps vs. YAMNAYA depigmentation snps, then great. Please provide sample numbers and links to where you found the data.

 

[halfalp]

What autosomal dna have to do with GAC people pigmentation, GAC is 100% EEF yes, but if a recall they are all y-dna I2a, so they are clearly a mix between WHG and EEF whatever their autosomal dna were a this point. Autosomal DNA dont give you any clue about pigmentation genes whatsoever.

 

[halfalp]

That's why this discussion is all wrong, Angela you keep saying that EEF is ANF, but if Bell Beaker is half EEF half Steppe, well EEF is ANF and at least a good amount of WHG related. This relation is more older than the migration from Anatolia to Balkans, related people from like saying Iron_Gates HG probably already exchange genes with HG or early farmers from Anatolia, this is proved by the fact that Anatolian_Neolithic and also Levant_Neolithic have some WHG genes. Therefore we cannot predict where light features genes are coming from, apart that they are centered in circum Black Sea pattern. Saying that some Blonde Haired people are found in multiple EEF contexte = Blonde Hair is coming from Anatolia doesn't make any sense. In a recent Genetiker article about Iberomaurusian predicted pigmentation one individual shows some genes for red hair, just a few so the individual probably didn't have red hairs but it just shows that the gene was in humans for some time, just not fixed. About Yamnaya, yes the studies says they were pretty much dark haired, dark eyed and light skinned, probably a Caucasus like skinned, not an Irish like skinned, but looking at modern distribution of red hairs, poping in pretty much all people from the Samara region wich are today Finno-ugrians speaking people and the pattern to modern R1b countries like Norway, Netherlands or the British Isles + that some early Samara/Khvalynsk individuals had genes for Blonde or Red hairs, its fair to say that some part of the Yamnaya horizon were already some keeper of those genes. Yamnaya horizon is an uterly big territory at the time of saying 5000 BC probably more than 100'000 people ( and its a fair number ) would live here, thats one of the reason for migration, we have less than 200 yamnaya samples and they are all centered into specific places.

 

[halfalp]

See Angela it clearly shows that you are biased thoward with Middle-East or Neolithic. You said Bell Beaker is autosomally half Yamnaya and half EEF, so therefore saying Yamnaya had light genes is irrelevent and fair enough i'm alright with that point. But you talk about GAC being autosomally EEF and you know they are all y-dna I2a wich is a WHG paternal markers and you dont take that into account, like autosomal dna doesn't say anything, GAC could be mostly of WHG descent but because of founder effect being 100% EEF, therefore they could be physically like their WHG ancestors and still be EEF. I think you want to be somebody fair in your views about thing, but at the same time you are so obsessed by racism or nazism that if people would constantly talking about " those blonde haired Yamnaya cavalier " you could not handle it.

 

[Angela]

Can you for the love of Christ please learn some genetics! I'm extremely tempted to just delete every post where you completely screw up the discussion and might confuse newbies. It would be a freaking public service.

You're all obsessed with pigmentation. Pigmentation is determined by your autosomes, NOT THE Y CHROMOSOME. The latter is irrelevant. Otherwise, for God's sake, how could West African R1b carriers be BLACK AS THE ACE OF SPADES? Can you not understand this?

These same posters are desperate to prove that Yamnaya people were fairer than any farming groups. Why, I have no freaking idea. WHO CARES? I certainly never start these discussions. I just can't let people post alleged "facts" which they can't prove.

If you're going to maintain that Yamnaya people were "fairer" than any farming group in Europe AT APPROXIMATELY THE SAME TIME, you're going to have to PROVE IT! Get it?

Given the tools we have that means you have to provide, as I said, samples from populations like GAC, but not only GAC, especially because I don't know how much faith to put in Genetiker's snp calls for pigmentation, and samples from YAMNAYA, not later Bell Beaker so that a comparison can be made. The argument that was made was that YAMNAYA people were fairer than European farming groups, not that BELL BEAKER was fairer. Do you understand the distinction?

I'm going to say it again. GAC is a farmer population. WHG is their minority component, about 20% to the best of my recollection. Plus, since you seem to have forgotten it, WHG were the DARKEST people in Europe. GAC couldn't have gotten their major SKIN depigmentation snps from them, although they got the blue eyes from them. GET IT?

(This is why I would have been absolute crap as a teacher. You can't tell sixteen year old kids they can't think their way out of a paper bag, the way I'm freely able to do in my chosen profession. I just have no patience for this crap.)

I'm going to delete any post of yours on this specific topic that continues to spam false information. Come back when you have the data.

 

[davef]

The EEF were Anatolian N + western hunter gatherer. Since the WHG's were dark, we have no other choice but to say that the origin of light skin came from the Anatolian

 

[Ailchu]

These same posters are desperate to prove that Yamnaya people were fairer than any farming groups. Why, I have no freaking idea. WHO CARES? I certainly never start these discussions. I just can't let people post alleged "facts" which they can't prove.

thats exactly why i came into this discussion.

"If genetiker's analysis of the depigmentation snps present in the Globular Amphora people is correct, the European farmers adjacent to the steppe were much lighter than steppe people. Yamnaya people were predominantly dark haired, dark eyed, and not very fair skinned."

i don't want to proof that steppe people were fairer but i see no evidence why they should have been darker.

 

[Angela]

thats exactly why i came into this discussion. i don't want to proof that yamnas were fairer but i see no evidence why they should have been darker.

How about you do some of the work. Find the samples for GAC, as just one example, and post the results for the depigmentation snps. Then, do the same for the Yamnaya samples. That's the only objective method we have to give us any FACTS, not just subjective opinions like "I just believe it must have been that way."

I'm not the one trying to prove they were more fair, and in fact I don't give a tinker's damn which group was more fair. I'm just tired of stupid, a-scientific nonsense being posted by people who don't understand anything about genetics, or just deliberately post irrelevant comparisons.

 

[Silesian]

See Angela it clearly shows that you are biased thoward with Middle-East or Neolithic. You said Bell Beaker is autosomally half Yamnaya and half EEF, so therefore saying Yamnaya had light genes is irrelevent and fair enough i'm alright with that point. But you talk about GAC being autosomally EEF and you know they are all y-dna I2a wich is a WHG paternal markers and you dont take that into account, like autosomal dna doesn't say anything, GAC could be mostly of WHG descent but because of founder effect being 100% EEF, therefore they could be physically like their WHG ancestors and still be EEF. I think you want to be somebody fair in your views about thing, but at the same time you are so obsessed by racism or nazism that if people would constantly talking about " those blonde haired Yamnaya cavalier " you could not handle it.

When Hungary Yamnaya samples are released we will be able to get an even better picture, hopefully they can test a good number among the thousands-tens/thousands kurgans. The samples I posted[I0744+I2787 very little Middle East admix if any] above/ R1b-Z2103-Z2109--from actual Bell Beaker Burial Grounds in Hungary][pigmentation/eye/hair] samples are the exact same branch as Yamnaya[R1b-Z2103-2109, with slightly different pigmentation. There are two branches of R1b within Eastern Bell Beakers Z2103/09[identical to Yamnaya]and brother kurgan cladeL51+. Another point of interest-their blood type, many were type A rh negative, very uncommon in the middle East-Afro-Asiatic speaking people.

Not to forget R1b-14000YBP+/- Italian-Villabruna[no doubt related to R1b men in Italy and Europe] he has very high score[WHG]almost no EEF--- and blue eyes.
Using Ancient Eurasia K6 Admixture Proportions

Population Ancestral_North_Eurasian - Ancestral_South_Eurasian 0.81 East_Asian 1.74 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 94.39 Natufian 1.22 Sub_Saharan 1.84

 

[Silesian]

How many times does it have to be said that Bell Beaker DOES NOT EQUAL Yamnaya. They are two different groups. Bell Beaker is about half EEF.

Therefore, this data is IRRELEVANT.

If you can show a side by side comparison of Globular Amphora snps vs. YAMNAYA depigmentation snps, then great. Please provide sample numbers and links to where you found the data.

Thank you for your input/views on the Bell Beakers.

 

[halfalp]

When Hungary Yamnaya samples are released we will be able to get an even better picture, hopefully they can test a good number among the thousands-tens/thousands kurgans. The samples I posted[I0744+I2787 very little Middle East admix if any] above/ R1b-Z2103-Z2109--from actual Bell Beaker Burial Grounds in Hungary][pigmentation/eye/hair] samples are the exact same branch as Yamnaya[R1b-Z2103-2109, with slightly different pigmentation. There are two branches of R1b within Eastern Bell Beakers Z2103/09[identical to Yamnaya]and brother kurgan cladeL51+. Another point of interest-their blood type, many were type A rh negative, very uncommon in the middle East-Afro-Asiatic speaking people.

Not to forget R1b-14000YBP+/- Italian-Villabruna[no doubt related to R1b men in Italy and Europe] he has very high score[WHG]almost no EEF--- and blue eyes.
Using Ancient Eurasia K6 Admixture Proportions

Population Ancestral_North_Eurasian - Ancestral_South_Eurasian 0.81 East_Asian 1.74 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 94.39 Natufian 1.22 Sub_Saharan 1.84

There is very low chances that Hungary Yamnaya dont have any EEF autosomal dna, especially taking into account that Yamnaya was a male-biased migration, over the generations EEF would become dominant in every western europe indo-european society, this is why in today times, indo-european paternal markers like R1b and R1a are ultra dominant in europe but neolithic autosomal dna is more dominant than steppe autosomal dna in their modern signature. For the Villabruna sample, the fact that he has East Asian markers but not ANE markers seems to show that he came from the south and was related to a population that give birth to the east asian component.

 

[Silesian]

There is very low chances that Hungary Yamnaya dont have any EEF autosomal dna, especially taking into account that Yamnaya was a male-biased migration, over the generations EEF would become dominant in every western europe indo-european society, this is why in today times, indo-european paternal markers like R1b and R1a are ultra dominant in europe but neolithic autosomal dna is more dominant than steppe autosomal dna in their modern signature. For the Villabruna sample, the fact that he has East Asian markers but not ANE markers seems to show that he came from the south and was related to a population that give birth to the east asian component.

If you go by ydna is Bell Beaker sample I2741[Brown/Black/Brown pigmentation hair/eye] from the same branch of ydna as GA? While Bell Beaker I2787 belongs to the same ydna branch as Bell Beaker I7044 + R1b Yamnaya/Afanasievo + R1b Sarmatians?[4000-4500YBP+/-]
Despite being classed as Bell Beaker both I2741 and I2787 have different ancestry/possible cultural?

 

[halfalp]

If you go by ydna is Bell Beaker sample I2741[Brown/Black/Brown pigmentation hair/eye] from the same branch of ydna as GA? While Bell Beaker I2787 belongs to the same ydna branch as Bell Beaker I7044 + R1b Yamnaya/Afanasievo + R1b Sarmatians?[4000-4500YBP+/-]
Despite being classed as Bell Beaker both I2741 and I2787 have different ancestry/possible cultural?

I didn't really understand your post, but you need a big picture. Assuming before Yamnaya Hungary, Hungary was populated by 20'000 individuals 50/50 male and female all 100% EEF. Then you have in lets saying, 500 years of a migration of 5'000 Yamnaya males with few Yamnaya women saying a 3 to 10 woman/man in Hungary. Of 5000 autosomally steppe individuals you have 3'500 men and 1'500 women. Saying for the first, four generations Yamnaya males gonna married and make babies with related Yamnaya woman, at least the elite, that would be maybe 10% of the all yamnaya related 5000 peoples. Over the generation you gonna have a decrease of local EEF males signatures and an increase of EEF woman signature to compensate. Now 500 years after so, 1000 years after in total. You gonna have something like a 90% autosomally EEF and 10% Steppe population with 90% of Steppe paternal lineages and something like 70% of EEF maternal lineages. So let's saying that in 2000 before christ, actual Hungary would be culturally related to steppe and genetically be overwhelmingly EEF. Of course, this is a just made equations, every geographical context gives a different result.

 

[Angela]

I didn't really understand your post, but you need a big picture. Assuming before Yamnaya Hungary, Hungary was populated by 20'000 individuals 50/50 male and female all 100% EEF. Then you have in lets saying, 500 years of a migration of 5'000 Yamnaya males with few Yamnaya women saying a 3 to 10 woman/man in Hungary. Of 5000 autosomally steppe individuals you have 3'500 men and 1'500 women. Saying for the first, four generations Yamnaya males gonna married and make babies with related Yamnaya woman, at least the elite, that would be maybe 10% of the all yamnaya related 5000 peoples. Over the generation you gonna have a decrease of local EEF males signatures and an increase of EEF woman signature to compensate. Now 500 years after so, 1000 years after in total. You gonna have something like a 90% autosomally EEF and 10% Steppe population with 90% of Steppe paternal lineages and something like 70% of EEF maternal lineages. So let's saying that in 2000 before christ, actual Hungary would be culturally related to steppe and genetically be overwhelmingly EEF. Of course, this is a just made equations, every geographical context gives a different result.

OK. That's it. This is a thread about the Anatolian branch of Indo-European.

Not only are you woefully confused (ie GAC had WHG admixture, why are you talking about the steppe), you continue to post off topic. If you continue I will give you infractions as well as delete the posts.

 

[davef]

class Biased{

public void weakExcuse(BA_Anatolian sample){

while(numberOfSamples != infinity)
{
if(sample.steppe > 0)
{
sample.culture = "invisible AnatolianIE elite";
}
else
{
sample.culture = "could be anything, who cares ?";
}
++numberOfSamples;
}

}

}

+1 for Java and pre incrementing