ToBeOrNotToBe
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Do people just ignore facts when it doesn’t suit them? How can people be downplaying examples like the ginger chalcolithic Armenians?! They didn’t spring out of the ground...
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Leyla-Tepe are thoerized to be the ancestors of Maykop, Maykop transmitted to Yamnaya their carts, their bronze, and their kurgans, you could argue that if they transmit that then their religion also.
As for their genetics, I'd refer to my post on the last thread we spoke https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...-in-Ebla/page2?p=548131&viewfull=1#post548131
Modelling Yamnaya Samara from Eneolithic Samara is the correct way, not from Progress and Vonjuchka. people tried to do that in the past, they also needed two ancestries: 1-more CHG 2-more ANF, Maykop_Steppe outliers have these two.
some links from Davidski and Anthrogenica:
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/08/genetic-and-archaeological-continuity.html
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6163-Dstats-and-qpAdm-with-EHG-Samara-Eneolithic-and-Yamnaya
Davidski uses Kotias and Hungary Neolithic in his modelling, as additional required ancestry to Yamnaya, CHG does not rise alone anymore, Chad rohlefsen in Anthrogeneica naturaly says that's geneflow from Maykop.
Do people just ignore facts when it doesn’t suit them? How can people be downplaying examples like the ginger chalcolithic Armenians?! They didn’t spring out of the ground...
from the linguistic supplement of Daamgard et al 2018:
Ok people, I'll take that bolded statment as true, Proto-Indo-Anatolian is earlier than Yamnaya and Late Maykop, what cultural sequnces lead to Anatolian speakers in Anatolia ? without having any EHG admixture ?
What Steppe culture pre Yamnaya could have lead to Anatolians ? but without EHG admixture ? convince me
A candidate would be: Sredny Stog -> Uzorovo -> Ezero. Considering that there are two Chalcolithic samples in Mathiesons South-Eastern paper are in the area where Uzorovo was situated, and both others are confirmed to have steppe ancestry, there you have your pre-Yamnaya steppe trail. But as ffoucart on AG keeps pointing out: Bulgarian Yamnaya isn't too young to be an ancestor for Anatolian.
Another thing is this. You completely misinterpret the lack of steppe in the Anatolian samples up to date. I will make a bold statement: If all the Bronze Age Anatolian samples were packed with steppe the Kurgan hypothesis was in trouble. It would mean that people of whom we know that they spoke a non-IE language, people that preceded the introduction of Anatolian languages, would have steppe ancestry. What would then be the reason to refute a hypothetical claim Yamnaya spoke a Hattic language?
The problem is that unless you have access to papers of which I'm not aware, other than a few pots there is no archaeological trail from Ezero to Anatolia. The archaeological trail goes in the other direction, from Anatolia to the Balkans. There's an upcoming paper that makes that case even stronger than it was before if the abstract is correct.
Also, you need the steppe on both ends.
I don't understand the relevance of your second point. No one is "demanding" samples packed with steppe. It would be impossible given how little is in the Balkans at the appropriate time. Something like the Mycenaeans would do very nicely.
Overall, the evidence brought forward here seems to suggest that, even though contacts between north-western Anatolia and Thrace/Macedonia can be detected at least from the 5th millennium (Steadman 1995; Thissen 1993), they seem to become more intense in the EBA, and are characterised by a mutual, bi-directional exchange of products, technologies and behaviours spread across time.
A striking point of connection is for example provided by three anthropomorphic stone stelae (fig.7.41), one found in secondary context within the fortification wall of Troy Id (c.2800-2700 cal BC), another found in a much later (Troy VI) context, but also of possible early EBA date (Blegen et al.1950:155-157, figs.93, 189), and the third a chance find near the mound of Helvacıköy-Höyücek (Doğer 1995).
At the close of the 3rd millennium, small numbers of cremation burials (essentially unknown in earlier prehistoric Anatolia) appear at Poliochni Yellow, Troy IIg, Çeşme-Boyalık, Aphrodisas and Kaklık Mevkii (fig.7.42, Massa and Şahoğlu in prep.).
I mean, the least is to express doubt that they come from the Steppe, to think that it's really peculiar that they don't have EHG ancestry, but what I saw was complete faith and belief in elite ghosts, against evidence, amazing.
@epoch
People with Steppe ancestry can have sex with people who do not, because Steppe people like to have sex, resulting in the mixed child to have some amount of that ancestry, there is a non-zero probability of that happening. You don't need to bring "Vassal kings" into it, it's just Biology.
Trololololololol
Unless the Hittites were like the Unsullied in Game of Thrones ?
Shall we remain serious? Would be greatly appreciated.
Mind you, there is a Hittite text available regarding early kings disallowing his own offspring to become his heir but *adopting* or choosing nephews as heirs. This was during times of great internal feuds.
I am dead serious, its the called the argument of how many samples do you need to know if people of different ethnicities had sex?
take the Minoans and Mycenaeans for example, how many samples from the Myceneans did not have EHG ? not a single one.
Take the Abusir mummies. How many samples had Greek admixture? None. So, according to your logic the Ptolemeids cannot have been of Greek origin.
Take the Abusir mummies. How many samples had Greek admixture? None. So, according to your logic the Ptolemeids cannot have been of Greek origin.
People seem to forget about those pale, red-haired Chalcolithic Armenians sequenced a while back, and happily ignore evidence of people with such pigmentation having had an ancient presence in the Middle East - despite a highly endogamous and extremely urbanised Middle Eastern group still possessing those qualities in relative abundance today far in excess of what could be explained by European admixture (Ashkenazi Jews).
I am going to repeat this: The history of the Hittites is very clear. We are *bound* to find a lot of non-steppe people among Hittites. To refute a theory that goes against linguistic evidence on the basis of a few non-steppe Hittite samples is not only acceptable, it is common sense. We *know* that large parts of Anatolia weren't IE speaking, let alone of steppe ancestry.
PS: In the Hittite empire there were many vassal kings. Considering the history of the Hittites, which explicitly describes the conquering of a Hattic kingdom and consequently making the Hattic king a vassal, we are even *bound* to find 100% non-steppe elite burials.
On the contrary, the largest parts of Anatolia were IE speaking. They were also not the parts anywhere near the Balkans. You people just ignore everything that doesn't fit on your side of the ledger. There's nothing scholarly about your approach whatsoever.
Why focus only on the Hittites?
I'm sorry, but only people with an agenda are going to believe this if not one sample in this whole area shows EHG. There's still time for the samples to show up, of course, but as I said, if none show up it's a real problem.
As for the mummies, come on. If you want Egyptian mummies with some "Greek" ancestry in them this is not the place to look. Look in Alexandria, for goodness' sakes. That's where the vast majority of the Greek citizens lived. It's like looking for Lombard ancestry not in Lombardia or the Veneto, but in Calabria.
Also, what about the chronology here? When did this supposed movement take place? How does that fit with the development of the language? How could the Anatolian languages, with no word for wheel, have entered Anatolia for the first time at such late dates?
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