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Thread: I2(I-S17250) birthplace

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    I2(I-S17250) birthplace

    Anyone has any ideas where this specific subclade originated?

    Thanks

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    I cant find anything about the I-S17250 online. Anyone has any info?

    Y Haplogroup: I2(I-S17250)
    mtDNA: U5b2a

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    Hi Lendros!
    It is nice to see you here.
    The thread is very interesting and I will try to give you some (possible) answers
    In my opinion, these two early Slavic cultures were important for spreading S17250 (very likely together with some branches of R-Z280):
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague-Korchak_culture
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipotes...ndesti_culture

    Starting area for expansion probably was the zone of Korchak Culture: Upper and Middle Dniester, Prut, Upper Vistula, Zhitomir
    From this area, S17250 migrated to all directions, east, west, south, and north. West and south mostly following Outer Carpathians
    In ancient sources, these tribes were mentioned as Sclaveni
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclaveni

    A big mass of Slavs from Korchak area migrated to Moldova region and Wallachia, where they crossed the Danube somewhere near Vidin, it was in middle of the sixth century, after settlement in nowadays East Serbia and West Bulgaria they divided into three groups, the first group went south to Epirus and some of them reach Peloponesse, the second migrated to Dalmatia, while the third went to Trakia and towards sea of Marmara
    There are some visual representations of migrations
    http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/zvwas/zvwas_040a.jpg
    http://www.kroraina.com/vg/vg_map2.jpg
    https://s9.postimg.cc/5th5wep3z/zaimov.jpg

    Other large groups of Slavs from Korchak culture migrated toward Central and Southern Poland, Bohemia and Germany.
    One part of them moved near today Slovakia-Hungary border to West Pannonia, Balaton lake, Alps and the Adriatic Sea.

    What part of Greece does your paternal line come from?
    Do you know your subclade under S17250?

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Dear Leandros! This question also interests me. One of my 8 eight great-great grandfather was I2a-L621-S17250-A1328.
    The other A1328 families I found:
    Sergeyev, Tula, Russia
    Melnikov, Baskiria, Russia
    Prudky, Harkiv Ukraina
    Rudy, Lipivci, Ukraina
    Barbo, Talachin, Belarus
    Viarenic-Stachowski, Stochava, Belarus
    Dzuba, Botajica, Bosnia
    Ciric, Maricka, Bosnia
    Vranjesevic, Bosanski Petrovac, Bosnia
    Wisniewski, Warszava, Poland
    Starasinic, Krasinec, Slovenia
    Tóth, Nyírbéltek, Hungary (My ancestors)

    According to YFULL, the A1328 last common ancestor lived 1400 year before present, so it means about 610 AD.

    Dear Vlad82! I would also like to thank you fro the detailed answer. Based in the above, I think, the S17250 decomposed into subgroups before the great slavic migration. It seems that the individual strains have broken apart, and did not move as a complete tribe to the Balkans, or to the Avar Khaganate, or Poland, or east, today Russia. The S17250 certainly lived in today's Western Ukraina, as Vlad82 wrote.

    I'm interested in how the Korchak culture came about?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad82 View Post
    Hi Lendros!
    It is nice to see you here.
    The thread is very interesting and I will try to give you some (possible) answers
    In my opinion, these two early Slavic cultures were important for spreading S17250 (very likely together with some branches of R-Z280):
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague-Korchak_culture
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipotes...ndesti_culture

    Starting area for expansion probably was the zone of Korchak Culture: Upper and Middle Dniester, Prut, Upper Vistula, Zhitomir
    From this area, S17250 migrated to all directions, east, west, south, and north. West and south mostly following Outer Carpathians
    In ancient sources, these tribes were mentioned as Sclaveni
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclaveni

    A big mass of Slavs from Korchak area migrated to Moldova region and Wallachia, where they crossed the Danube somewhere near Vidin, it was in middle of the sixth century, after settlement in nowadays East Serbia and West Bulgaria they divided into three groups, the first group went south to Epirus and some of them reach Peloponesse, the second migrated to Dalmatia, while the third went to Trakia and towards sea of Marmara
    There are some visual representations of migrations
    http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/zvwas/zvwas_040a.jpg
    http://www.kroraina.com/vg/vg_map2.jpg
    https://s9.postimg.cc/5th5wep3z/zaimov.jpg

    Other large groups of Slavs from Korchak culture migrated toward Central and Southern Poland, Bohemia and Germany.
    One part of them moved near today Slovakia-Hungary border to West Pannonia, Balaton lake, Alps and the Adriatic Sea.

    What part of Greece does your paternal line come from?
    Do you know your subclade under S17250?
    Hey dude, thanks for your time explaining me :)
    Sounds very interesting!!

    My paternal and maternal ancestors came from Greek Thrace, even from the Byzantium era.

    My Living Dna results came with only this I2(I-S17250) so I dont know any more details :)

    Y Haplogroup: I2(I-S17250)
    mtDNA: U5b2a

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leandros View Post
    Hey dude, thanks for your time explaining me :)
    Sounds very interesting!!

    My paternal and maternal ancestors came from Greek Thrace, even from the Byzantium era.

    My Living Dna results came with only this I2(I-S17250) so I dont know any more details :)

    Y Haplogroup: I2(I-S17250)
    mtDNA: U5b2a
    Quote Originally Posted by Leandros View Post
    Hey dude, thanks for your time explaining me :)
    Sounds very interesting!!

    My paternal and maternal ancestors came from Greek Thrace, even from the Byzantium era.

    My Living Dna results came with only this I2(I-S17250) so I dont know any more details :)

    Y Haplogroup: I2(I-S17250)
    mtDNA: U5b2a
    You are welcome!
    There are already two Greeks from Thrace confirmed as S17250, one is from Topolovgrad S17250>>PH908>>A356/Z16983>>A493, and the second one is from Constantinople S17250>>PH908*
    PH908 is the most common subclade in Balkan, and makeup about 50% of all S17250.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzmosi View Post
    Dear Leandros! This question also interests me. One of my 8 eight great-great grandfather was I2a-L621-S17250-A1328.
    The other A1328 families I found:
    Sergeyev, Tula, Russia
    Melnikov, Baskiria, Russia
    Prudky, Harkiv Ukraina
    Rudy, Lipivci, Ukraina
    Barbo, Talachin, Belarus
    Viarenic-Stachowski, Stochava, Belarus
    Dzuba, Botajica, Bosnia
    Ciric, Maricka, Bosnia
    Vranjesevic, Bosanski Petrovac, Bosnia
    Wisniewski, Warszava, Poland
    Starasinic, Krasinec, Slovenia
    Tóth, Nyírbéltek, Hungary (My ancestors)

    According to YFULL, the A1328 last common ancestor lived 1400 year before present, so it means about 610 AD.

    Dear Vlad82! I would also like to thank you fro the detailed answer. Based in the above, I think, the S17250 decomposed into subgroups before the great slavic migration. It seems that the individual strains have broken apart, and did not move as a complete tribe to the Balkans, or to the Avar Khaganate, or Poland, or east, today Russia. The S17250 certainly lived in today's Western Ukraina, as Vlad82 wrote.

    I'm interested in how the Korchak culture came about?
    Thank you Kuzmosi!
    I agree with you about decomposed into subgroups of S17250, there are many Slavic tribes who might be connected with Korchak culture, and probably they had a pretty different structure of subclades. Also on their migration routes, they mixed with Slavic and non-Slavic tribes from other archeological cultures.

    I have two books about Early Slavs written by Russian archeologist Valentin Vasiljevic Sedov. Unfortunately, both editions are in Serbian and Russian. During next week I will translate some basic information about Prague Korchak Culture and explain why I think it is related with S17250.

    I have made some maps of I-CTS10228 subclades, it has not been updated for a while, some of them are not complete, and I have to check if some people who are grouped in public projects at ftdna really took the tests or administrators grouped them depending on STR matches.
    I did not know for your ancestors/relatives who are confirmed as A1328.

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    Thank you Vlad82!

    I look forward to all the information about this group. This includes 2 of my 8 great-great grandfathers. The other one is the Kiss family from Penészlek, Hungary. They are I2a-L621-Y4460-Y3106-Y3118.

    Because I made the accurate definitions at YSEQ. They are the cheapest. About 150 euro is an exact definition based on SNP tests.

    The Tóth results:

    Order History


    09/17/2017 Pending
    09/17/2017 Pending PayPal IPN Verified [Completed (Unverified; $88.00)]
    09/17/2017 Processing Your DNA (YSEQ ID 11777) is in storage.
    Thank you for your order.
    The coupon code was applied.
    09/27/2017 Processing First results (YSEQ ID 11777) have been posted:
    https://www.yseq.net/alleles.php

    Quick results summary:
    I2a-M423 Panel processing
    CTS10228 C+
    S17250 A+
    PH908 processing
    Y5596 processing
    Y4882 processing
    10/05/2017 Processing More results (YSEQ ID 11777) have been posted:
    https://www.yseq.net/alleles.php

    Quick results summary:
    I2a-M423 Panel processing
    CTS10228 C+
    S17250 A+
    PH908 C-
    Y5596 A-
    Y4882 A+
    A1328 processing
    A12505 processing
    10/10/2017 Processing More results (YSEQ ID 11777) have been posted:
    https://www.yseq.net/alleles.php

    Quick results summary:
    I2a-M423 Panel processing
    CTS10228 C+
    S17250 A+
    PH908 C-
    Y5596 A-
    Y4882 A+
    A1328 G+
    A12505 C-
    A7318 processing
    10/14/2017 Delivered Your results (YSEQ ID 11777) have been posted:
    https://www.yseq.net/alleles.php

    The final haplogroup is I2a-A1328.
    All known downstream branches have been confirmed negative.

    Quick results summary:
    I2a-M423 Panel processing
    CTS10228 C+
    S17250 A+
    PH908 C-
    Y5596 A-
    Y4882 A+
    A1328 G+
    A12505 C-
    A7318 A-

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    Ethnic group
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    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by Leandros View Post
    Anyone has any ideas where this specific subclade originated?

    Thanks

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    All is said here, probably belong to the source of White Croats.

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ats-to-Croatia

    Your male ancestor and ancestor most of the Croats lived in White Croatia and with migration of the Slavs they (descendants) come to the Greece and that area.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-Y81971; R1a-YP415;
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H16f

    Ethnic group
    hungarian, ruthenian, celtic, proto-german, scandinavian
    Country: Hungary



    Do we know I2a-A1328+, or I2a-Y3118+ samples from Croatia?

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    Ethnic group
    Croatian
    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by kuzmosi View Post
    Do we know I2a-A1328+, or I2a-Y3118+ samples from Croatia?
    For now Croatian ancestor subclade is I-S17250.. https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/

    I2a-A1328+ has the same common ancestor (I-S17250) as the most of Croats.

    If it turns out that Croats do not have that subclade I2a-A1328 this may mean an earlier separation (part of the tribe, some leader etc..) in White Croatia and migration let's say to western Czech Republic or east Ukraine and from there a migration through Europe but not to Croatia. But still subclade (I-S17250) remains a common ancestor.

    It is based on today's Y-tree for I-S17250, how will be in the future we'll see and I will respect that.


    Croats do not have much I2a-Y4882 and the same subclade is typical for Ukraine, Poland, Slovaka but for now they still have same common ancestor (I-S17250) as Croats. My opinion is that subclade (Y4882) proves earlier migration from White Croatia ie. before 7th century to Ukraine, through Poland etc.. and that's why Croats have minimal (Y4882) because that mutation did not exist (White Croatia) or minimal in time of migration to Dalmatia. Later the local migration return (Y4882) peoples to southern Poland, Slovakia etc.

    Y-full tree that's says for now, it is possible that everything will change in the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzmosi View Post
    Do we know I2a-A1328+, or I2a-Y3118+ samples from Croatia?
    Yseq currently offers the most what we can get for 150€, Y37 + SNP panel or just Top orientation panel for those who do not want STR markers.
    Did you do STR panels for your relatives?

    FTdna has a large base and many projects where people can see their matches or get information about their HGs. Unfortunately, there are no common haplogroup projects where people can join regardless of a company where they took tests.

    In Croatia there are two a confirmed Y4882+ results, one is a Serb, other is a Croat, both Catholics, they have not taken deeper tests.
    One big group of Orthodox Serbian families from Croatia called "Rodići" is confirmed Y4882>>A1238
    Other confirmed Y4882>>A1238+ results are two Serbian families from Bosnia, one family near Belgrade, one from North Montenegro.
    There is one anonymous Y4882>>A1238+ on Serbian-Bulgarian border, and one in Central Bulgaria.

    In Southeastern Europe there are only 3 I2a-Y3118* for now, located somewhat eastern, Moldova/Moldavia, Central Bulgaria, and Istanbul/Constantinople.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-Y81971; R1a-YP415;
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H16f

    Ethnic group
    hungarian, ruthenian, celtic, proto-german, scandinavian
    Country: Hungary



    hrvat22!

    So, most of the Croats are my 1400 years old relatives? I think the White Croats are really the link between us. These my ancestors (Tóth and Kiss) have a rusin (ruthenian) origin. They called himself rusin. My grandfather was the last one who can speak the old rusin language in the village Penészlek. (he died: 1995) The Rusin (Ruthenian) motherland was just where the white croats lived (west Ukraina and southeast Poland)

    Vlad82!

    Thank you for the great help. I'm curious about all the information from you. Only basic STR tests were performed, which was necessary to determin which SNP panel needed for the further research.

    Tóth STR-s:

    11777
    CDY ChrY 24005874 24006149 34-38
    11777 DYS19 ChrY 9684325 9684519 15
    11777 DYS385 ChrY 18639570 18639938 14-15
    11777 DYS388 ChrY 12635531 12635686 13
    11777 DYS389I ChrY 12500276 12500522 14
    11777 DYS389II ChrY 12500276 12500522 31
    11777 DYS390 ChrY 15162994 15163339 24
    11777 DYS391 ChrY 11982052 11982338 11
    11777 DYS392 ChrY 20471872 20472125 11
    11777 DYS393 ChrY 3263087 3263205 13
    11777 DYS426 ChrY 17022933 17023029 11
    11777 DYS437 ChrY 12346237 12346428 15
    11777 DYS438 ChrY 12825860 12826080 10
    11777 DYS439 ChrY 12403364 12403615 13
    11777 DYS442 ChrY 12649133 12649437 11
    11777 DYS447 ChrY 13166781 13166991 26
    11777 DYS448 ChrY 22218853 22219146 20
    11777 DYS449 ChrY 8349867 8350221 32
    11777 DYS454 ChrY 8356042 8356241 11
    11777 DYS455 ChrY 7043418 7043597 11
    11777 DYS456 ChrY 4402901 4403049 15
    11777 DYS458 ChrY 7999798 7999920 17
    11777 DYS459 ChrY 23932643 23932794 8-10
    11777 DYS460 ChrY 18888912 18889080 10
    11777 DYS464 ChrY 23094675 23094949 12-14-15-15
    11777 DYS570 ChrY 6993074 6993329 18
    11777 DYS576 ChrY 7185261 7185451 19
    11777 DYS607 ChrY 16302426 16302618 12
    11777 DYS724 ChrY 24005874 24006149 34-38
    11777 Y-GATA-H4 ChrY 16631504 16631871 11
    11777 YCAII ChrY 17510203 17510360 21-21


    Kiss STR-s:

    13233
    DYS19 ChrY 9521934 9522128 16
    13233 DYS385 ChrY 20801456 20801824 14-15
    13233 DYS388 ChrY 14747462 14747617 13
    13233 DYS389I ChrY 14612070 14612316 13
    13233
    DYS389II ChrY 14612070 14612316 31
    13233 DYS390 ChrY 17274874 17275219 24
    13233 DYS391 ChrY 14102758 14103044 11
    13233 DYS392 ChrY 22633758 22634011 11
    13233 DYS393 ChrY 3131128 3131246 13
    13233 DYS426 ChrY 19134813 19134909 11
    13233
    DYS437 ChrY 14466964 14467155 15
    13233 DYS438 ChrY 14937795 14938015 10
    13233 DYS439 ChrY 14515159
    14515410 13
    13233
    DYS447 ChrY 15278692 15278902 26
    13233
    Y-GATA-H4 ChrY 18743384 18743751 11
    13233
    YCAII ChrY 19622083
    19622240 21-21

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    Why do you use the term "white" Croats. Its like referring to Nigerians as "black" Nigerians lol

    Y Haplogroup: I2(I-S17250)
    mtDNA: U5b2a

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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzmosi View Post
    hrvat22!

    So, most of the Croats are my 1400 years old relatives? I think the White Croats are really the link between us. These my ancestors (Tóth and Kiss) have a rusin (ruthenian) origin. They called himself rusin. My grandfather was the last one who can speak the old rusin language in the village Penészlek. (he died: 1995) The Rusin (Ruthenian) motherland was just where the white croats lived (west Ukraina and southeast Poland)
    Who knows what the future will tell, for now look branch I-S17250 as family geneetic tree. I-S17250 is one person in White Croatia and that person connects all descendants. From this man house starts expansion and migration.
    Why this house would be conected with White Croats? Because some historical records in that area see White Croats. For that reason that subclade can not be original Bulgarian, Greek, Slovakian, Ukrainian, Polish, Belarusian. Rusian, Macedonian etc..although I-S17250 descendants now live in these countries, they just by the male line originally had a White Croatian ancestor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leandros View Post
    Why do you use the term "white" Croats. Its like referring to Nigerians as "black" Nigerians lol

    Y Haplogroup: I2(I-S17250)
    mtDNA: U5b2a
    Because White Croats are mentioned in historical records, and because we have to make genetic difference between later Dalmatian Croats. To Croatia come White Croats but from Croatia to another country they are coming as Croats.

    They come to Greece from carpatian as Slavs, in them are and White Croats not Croats from Croatia.

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    thanks for sharing this info.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-S17250
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: USA - Utah



    Newbie here. Did 23&Me and Ancestry.com so far.

    39% (and most): I2a1b2a1 S17250 aka. Y=P204

    With these subs that I still know very little about


    I-Y4882

    I-Z16971
    I-Z16983

    According to family history: the First known ancestor (supposedly) was Stanislaw Hosszúmezey (Dolhay) c 1330-1366 Vovoide of Beregh County, in the Kingdom of Hungary. Later family members got nobility type papers and served in various military, judicial, and administrative capacities in Northern Transylvania, Slovakia, Western Ukraine, and later Buda and Vienna.

    I was born in Budapest, Hungary, but only 2 gen away from Transylvanian birthplaces of Paternal Grandparents.

    Both the the Polish and the Croatian connection with
    I-Y4882 come as somewhat of a surprise and I'm trying to connect the dots with all of it. I guess it's entirely possible, given the constant movement and mixing in the region, and I'm sort of wondering if one of my foremothers "had stepped off the reservation sometime in the past"... and (Family) History is only about papers , legends, and some archaeology, but genetics you can't really argue with...




  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by petro__eh View Post
    Newbie here. Did 23&Me and Ancestry.com so far.

    39% (and most): I2a1b2a1 S17250 aka. Y=P204
    You only have one Y-haplogroup.

    What is your paternal haplogroup on 23andme?

  20. #20
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J1-P58
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T1a1l

    Ethnic group
    Gheg Albanian-Kelmendi clan(Joined) but with supposed origin from Montenegro
    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Leandros View Post
    Why do you use the term "white" Croats. Its like referring to Nigerians as "black" Nigerians lol

    Y Haplogroup: I2(I-S17250)
    mtDNA: U5b2a
    It doesn't refer to skin colour. White Croats was the name of the Slavic tribe which inhabited areas north of the Carpathians in eastern Europe, some of them are thought to have migrated to modern day Croatia.
    Ydna: J-ZS241

    mtDNA: T1a1l

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by petro__eh View Post
    Newbie here. Did 23&Me and Ancestry.com so far.

    39% (and most): I2a1b2a1 S17250 aka. Y=P204

    With these subs that I still know very little about


    I-Y4882

    I-Z16971
    I-Z16983

    According to family history: the First known ancestor (supposedly) was Stanislaw Hosszúmezey (Dolhay) c 1330-1366 Vovoide of Beregh County, in the Kingdom of Hungary. Later family members got nobility type papers and served in various military, judicial, and administrative capacities in Northern Transylvania, Slovakia, Western Ukraine, and later Buda and Vienna.

    I was born in Budapest, Hungary, but only 2 gen away from Transylvanian birthplaces of Paternal Grandparents.

    Both the the Polish and the Croatian connection with
    I-Y4882 come as somewhat of a surprise and I'm trying to connect the dots with all of it. I guess it's entirely possible, given the constant movement and mixing in the region, and I'm sort of wondering if one of my foremothers "had stepped off the reservation sometime in the past"... and (Family) History is only about papers , legends, and some archaeology, but genetics you can't really argue with...
    I think you do not have enough knowledge to understand results.
    First off all you cannot be 39% S17250, you can be only positive or negative on S17250, in some rare cases there is "no call" for a SNP which means that test did not read the position.
    The second thing is that you cannot in same time be positive on 3 parallel branches of S17250 (I-Y4882 I-Z16971 I-Z16983). Those branches have common ancestor that lived at least 1850 years ago. You can see it on the tree https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/
    So if you are positive on one of three branches you named here, automatically you are negative on the rest two.
    I know that all of it might be confusing for newbies.

    Have you taken recently 23andme test?
    Is your test V5 chip that test S17250?
    Could you see what is your Y-haplogroup results at 23andme?
    Is your known paternal line from Beregh county Hungarian or Slavic? Name Stanislaw is a slavic name.

  22. #22
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2

    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Leandros View Post
    Why do you use the term "white" Croats. Its like referring to Nigerians as "black" Nigerians lol

    Y Haplogroup: I2(I-S17250)
    mtDNA: U5b2a
    From what I recall reading, peoples of the steppes used colours to denote direction. White was west. The ancestors of Croats (at least the people we inherited the name Croats from) were a steppic people who migrated into Europe and resided over the Slavs as a ruling military caste. These Slavs eventually became White Croats (West Croats).

  23. #23
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    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by catosicarius View Post
    From what I recall reading, peoples of the steppes used colours to denote direction. White was west. The ancestors of Croats (at least the people we inherited the name Croats from) were a steppic people who migrated into Europe and resided over the Slavs as a ruling military caste. These Slavs eventually became White Croats (West Croats).
    The Iranian (steppic) origin of Croats is just a speculation. First known Croatian dukes had Slavic names and their language was Slavic. The genetics and anthropology also indicate Slavic origin. Archeology doesn't see any traces of Iranian culture in Croatian medieval tombs.

    However, Slavs also used colours (white as north). The example is the name of modern country of Belarus (= White Rus').
    Neopisivo

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