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Thread: Lombard vs Roman Y-DNA and mtDNA from northern Italy and Hungary

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    Post Lombard vs Roman Y-DNA and mtDNA from northern Italy and Hungary

    The study on Lombard DNA by Amorim et al. (2018) was already discussed a few months ago as part of a preliminary paper, but did not yet include the Y-DNA and mtDNA tables. This is still a pre-print, but at least we can see what haplogroups the Lombards carried.

    The admixtures for each sample are available on this chart to confirm which sample is autosomally Lombard (in blue) or Roman (in red and green).


    Here is the Y-DNA table from the study. I have added the mtDNA in the right column and coloured in red the sample number for those that were autosomally predominantly South European. Those that were very mixed are in blue and red. The others are predominantly Northwest European/Germanic.

    CL38 E1b1b1a1b1a3 PF2211 X2
    CL31 G2a1a1 Z6644 H18
    CL63 I1a3 Z79 H
    CL23 T1a2b L446 H
    CL110 R1b1a2a M694 -
    CL53 R1b1a2a PF6434 H11a
    CL57 R1b1a2a1a L151 H24a
    CL93 R1b1a2a1a L151 J2b1a
    CL145 R1b1a2a1a L151 T2b
    CL146 R1b1a2a1a L151 T2b3
    CL92 R1b1a2a1a L52 H
    CL84 R1b1a2a1a2c1g1a1 Z381 H1t
    CL30 R1b1a1a2a1a2 S116 I1b
    CL49 R1b1a1a2a1a2b1a Z367 -
    CL94 R1b1a1a2a1a2f S11987 (DF99) K1c1
    CL121 R1b1a2a2 Z2103 H1i2





    SZ18 E1b1b1a1b2 CTS2817 H13a1a2
    SZ45 I1a1b1 L22 J1c
    SZ12 I2a2a1 CTS9183 W6
    SZ14 I2a2a1 CTS9183 I3
    SZ24 I2a2a1 CTS9183 U4b
    SZ43 I2a2a1a2a1a S391 H1e
    SZ3 I2a2a1b2a2 S390 H18
    SZ13 I2a2a1b2a2a2 ZS20 N1b1b1
    SZ22 I2a2a1b2a2a2 ZS20 N1b1b1
    SZ7 I2a2a1b2a2a2 ZS20 T2e
    SZ36 T1a1a PF5620 U4c2a
    SZ15 R1a1a1b1a3a S200 H1c1
    SZ4 R1b1a2a1a1b Z16 H1c9
    SZ16 R1b1a2a1a1c Z381 U4b1b
    SZ23 R1b1a2a1a1c Z381 H13a1a2
    SZ2 R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2a1b1a L130 T1a1
    SZ11 R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a1a1 Z351 K2a3
    SZ27B R1b1a1a2a1a2 S116 N1a1a1a1
    SZ37 R1b1a1a2a1a2 S116 H66a
    SZ42 R1b1a1a2a1a2 S116 K2a6
    SZ5 R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b CTS1595 J2b1

    The autosomally Germanic samples belong to:

    - I1-L22 (1 sample)
    - I2a2a-L801 (4 samples including three ZS20)
    - R1a-Z284 (1 sample, L448+)
    - R1b-U106 (including three Z381, two L48>Z9 and one Z16)

    One sample was reported as I1a3, which should be I1-Z63, but the SNP listed was Z79, which belongs to a deep clade of I2a2a-L801. So it isn't clear which it is. Surely a typo.

    There is no surprise, except maybe that the haplogroup composition is so high in I2a2a-L801 and has few I1, but that is probably a sampling bias (too small sample size). All the haplogroups are unambiguously Germanic and even South Scandinavian in their subclades, which is in agreement with the origins of the Lombards in Scania (southern Sweden).

    The samples that were autosomally South European included the following haplogroups:

    - E-V13
    - G2a1a
    - I2a2a-L1229 (also found in Megalithic cultures)
    - R1b-Z2103
    - T1a1a

    One R1b-S116 (P312) samples was fully Germanic, one was fully South European, and the third one was mixed.

    Two samples (CL49 and SZ5) belong to R1b-U152 (L2>Z367 and Z36>Z37), but unfortunately both are about half CEU and half TSI (+IBS for SZ5), so their origins are inconclusive. Alpine Celts would probably have such mixed ancestry though. But the Z36 branch is more likely Italic/Roman.

    The E-V22 and R1b-DF99 and one R1b-Z381 also had mixed ancestry.
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    Thank you! Do you have any theories on why there are no Slavic clades there? There are known historical associations between the Slavs and Longobards, and the Longobard migration to Italy probably followed decades of living side by side with Slavic tribes. Instead the mixed ones look more southeaster. It's as if the Slavic migrations had not happened yet.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Thank you! Do you have any theories on why there are no Slavic clades there? There are known historical associations between the Slavs and Longobards, and the Longobard migration to Italy probably followed decades of living side by side with Slavic tribes. Instead the mixed ones look more southeaster. It's as if the Slavic migrations had not happened yet.
    Why would there be Slavic clades? They are Lombards, not Goths. The Lombards descended straight from Scania to Italy via Germany, Austria and Hungary. They never passed through Slavic territories.

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    The haplogroups debunk the notion floated around certain other sites that the more South European samples are Arabs or Jews or some other Near Easterners. I expect the upcoming Imperial Rome paper to not contradict the implication of related admixture being more spread around the peninsula than the Nordicist narrative suggests.

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    Surprising that the I1 frequency is so low and that there's not I1a2 (Z58) branches. Very nice to see these results.
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    I looked at CL23 ( buried in Italy ), born in the balkans ?
    He has Helbus reading of Bulgarian
    .
    Helbus - Hellenthal et al. (p. 747) describe a method, using a technique called chromosome painting, to follow the genetic traces of admixture back to the nearest extant population. The approach revealed details of worldwide human admixture history over the past 4000 years.
    .
    His IBS seems to be via his mtdna of H
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    his closest ancient match is via neolthic Hungarian ...........maybe even Sopot culture.
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    There is chit-chat around that 1000 genomes system is now outdated as no marker/ID covers the balkans or eastern europe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Why would there be Slavic clades? They are Lombards, not Goths. The Lombards descended straight from Scania to Italy via Germany, Austria and Hungary. They never passed through Slavic territories.
    The paper had samples from Pannonia. Hungarians had not arrived there yet, so the mixed haplogroups "should" have been Slavs, Avars, other Germanics, or just pre-migration locals.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    The paper had samples from Pannonia. Hungarians had not arrived there yet, so the mixed haplogroups "should" have been Slavs, Avars, other Germanics, or just pre-migration locals.
    The Slavic expansion had barely begun by the time Lombards went from Hungary to Italy. I wouldn't expect a lot of Slavs in Hungary that early. Romanized local Pannonians, yes, maybe some Romanized Illyrians and Dacians too, and certainly an increasing number of Germanic populations, but even the Avars were just arriving in the Pannonian plain in the early-mid 6th century AD, they became dominant in the later part of that century. Slavs according to some authors took advantage of the structures of the Avar Empire, their language possibly even became a lingua franca, but the Slavic westward spread (impacting Hungary strongly) was most definitely not as early as 450-550 AD, which is the approximate time Lombards lived in Hungary. By 568 AD they were already conquering Italy and wouldn't mix much with newcomers to Pannonia any longer.

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    Hey mtdna H1e, first in Neolithic Germany and Wielbark, now in migration age Pannonia as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Why would there be Slavic clades? They are Lombards, not Goths. The Lombards descended straight from Scania to Italy via Germany, Austria and Hungary. They never passed through Slavic territories.
    Weren't there Slavs in Austria and Hungary at least since the 6th-7th centuries AD?

    These samples from Szolad in Hungary appear genetically Slavic (culturally Avar?):

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...y)-on-GEDmatch

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    The Slavic expansion had barely begun by the time Lombards went from Hungary to Italy. I wouldn't expect a lot of Slavs in Hungary that early. Romanized local Pannonians, yes, maybe some Romanized Illyrians and Dacians too, and certainly an increasing number of Germanic populations, but even the Avars were just arriving in the Pannonian plain in the early-mid 6th century AD, they became dominant in the later part of that century. Slavs according to some authors took advantage of the structures of the Avar Empire, their language possibly even became a lingua franca, but the Slavic westward spread (impacting Hungary strongly) was most definitely not as early as 450-550 AD, which is the approximate time Lombards lived in Hungary. By 568 AD they were already conquering Italy and wouldn't mix much with newcomers to Pannonia any longer.

    I guess this explains it.

    These "genetically Slavic" samples from Szolad are from late 500s - early 600s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The study on Lombard DNA by Amorim et al. (2018) was already discussed a few months ago as part of a preliminary paper, but did not yet include the Y-DNA and mtDNA tables. This is still a pre-print, but at least we can see what haplogroups the Lombards carried.

    The admixtures for each sample are available on this chart to confirm which sample is autosomally Lombard (in blue) or Roman (in red and green).


    Here is the Y-DNA table from the study. I have added the mtDNA in the right column and coloured in red the sample number for those that were autosomally predominantly South European. Those that were very mixed are in blue and red. The others are predominantly Northwest European/Germanic.

    CL38 E1b1b1a1b1a3 PF2211 X2
    CL31 G2a1a1 Z6644 H18
    CL63 I1a3 Z79 H
    CL23 T1a2b L446 H
    CL110 R1b1a2a M694 -
    CL53 R1b1a2a PF6434 H11a
    CL57 R1b1a2a1a L151 H24a
    CL93 R1b1a2a1a L151 J2b1a
    CL145 R1b1a2a1a L151 T2b
    CL146 R1b1a2a1a L151 T2b3
    CL92 R1b1a2a1a L52 H
    CL84 R1b1a2a1a2c1g1a1 Z381 H1t
    CL30 R1b1a1a2a1a2 S116 I1b
    CL49 R1b1a1a2a1a2b1a Z367 -
    CL94 R1b1a1a2a1a2f S11987 (DF99) K1c1
    CL121 R1b1a2a2 Z2103 H1i2





    SZ18 E1b1b1a1b2 CTS2817 H13a1a2
    SZ45 I1a1b1 L22 J1c
    SZ12 I2a2a1 CTS9183 W6
    SZ14 I2a2a1 CTS9183 I3
    SZ24 I2a2a1 CTS9183 U4b
    SZ43 I2a2a1a2a1a S391 H1e
    SZ3 I2a2a1b2a2 S390 H18
    SZ13 I2a2a1b2a2a2 ZS20 N1b1b1
    SZ22 I2a2a1b2a2a2 ZS20 N1b1b1
    SZ7 I2a2a1b2a2a2 ZS20 T2e
    SZ36 T1a1a PF5620 U4c2a
    SZ15 R1a1a1b1a3a S200 H1c1
    SZ4 R1b1a2a1a1b Z16 H1c9
    SZ16 R1b1a2a1a1c Z381 U4b1b
    SZ23 R1b1a2a1a1c Z381 H13a1a2
    SZ2 R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2a1b1a L130 T1a1
    SZ11 R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a1a1 Z351 K2a3
    SZ27B R1b1a1a2a1a2 S116 N1a1a1a1
    SZ37 R1b1a1a2a1a2 S116 H66a
    SZ42 R1b1a1a2a1a2 S116 K2a6
    SZ5 R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b CTS1595 J2b1

    The autosomally Germanic samples belong to:

    - I1-L22 (1 sample)
    - I2a2a-L801 (4 samples including three ZS20)
    - R1a-Z284 (1 sample, L448+)
    - R1b-U106 (including three Z381, two L48>Z9 and one Z16)

    One sample was reported as I1a3, which should be I1-Z63, but the SNP listed was Z79, which belongs to a deep clade of I2a2a-L801. So it isn't clear which it is. Surely a typo.

    There is no surprise, except maybe that the haplogroup composition is so high in I2a2a-L801 and has few I1, but that is probably a sampling bias (too small sample size). All the haplogroups are unambiguously Germanic and even South Scandinavian in their subclades, which is in agreement with the origins of the Lombards in Scania (southern Sweden).

    The samples that were autosomally South European included the following haplogroups:

    - E-V13
    - G2a1a
    - I2a2a-L1229 (also found in Megalithic cultures)
    - R1b-Z2103
    - T1a1a

    One R1b-S116 (P312) samples was fully Germanic, one was fully South European, and the third one was mixed.

    Two samples (CL49 and SZ5) belong to R1b-U152 (L2>Z367 and Z36>Z37), but unfortunately both are about half CEU and half TSI (+IBS for SZ5), so their origins are inconclusive. Alpine Celts would probably have such mixed ancestry though. But the Z36 branch is more likely Italic/Roman.

    The E-V22 and R1b-DF99 and one R1b-Z381 also had mixed ancestry.
    Any news on whether CL63 is really I1-Z63 and not I2-Z79?

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Eupedia Forum mobile app

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    As for v13, you can not have deeper clades or STR markers? Although it has been defined as southern europe, could it not be a descendant of Greek colonists of the sixth century ahead of Christ or Byzantine?
    Can not establish correlations with the current inhabitants? In these studies they never, given current knowledge, to go a little 'deeper' through local history?
    Last edited by ELIOV13; 05-01-19 at 17:24. Reason: scritto male

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    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    Any news on whether CL63 is really I1-Z63 and not I2-Z79?

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Eupedia Forum mobile app
    I have the answer. CL63 is I1-DF29 and negative for Z63, L22. SZ45 is listed as positive for BOTH Z63 and L22 which is impossible. It's probably one or the other.

    There were some WGS data available for a handful of them....very cool info on the U106 samples being run with by the U106 enthusiast crowd.

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Eupedia Forum mobile app

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    I have the answer. CL63 is I1-DF29 and negative for Z63, L22. SZ45 is listed as positive for BOTH Z63 and L22 which is impossible. It's probably one or the other.

    There were some WGS data available for a handful of them....very cool info on the U106 samples being run with by the U106 enthusiast crowd.

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Eupedia Forum mobile app
    I downloaded a BAM viewer (IGV) and obtained the CL63 BAM from NCBI. I looked at CL63.

    Results: Z63+, S2077+, PR683+, L1237-


    Sample SZ45 is L22, P109, and some downstream. It's being added to YFull.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    I downloaded a BAM viewer (IGV) and obtained the CL63 BAM from NCBI. I looked at CL63.

    Results: Z63+, S2077+, PR683+, L1237-


    Sample SZ45 is L22, P109, and some downstream. It's being added to YFull.
    can you try CL23 please

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    can you try CL23 please
    CL23 T1a2bL446Southern Europe

    I'm not familiar with T. I'd need a list of hg19 positions to check further.

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    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    CL23 T1a2b L446Southern Europe

    I'm not familiar with T. I'd need a list of hg19 positions to check further.

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Eupedia Forum mobile app
    Thanks, CL23: Y T1a2B L446

    Gedmatch ID: Z909242

    Dodecad V3:

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    50% S_Italian_Dodecad +50% N._European_Xing @ 2.237386


    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Tuscan_Xing @ 5.631067
    2 Tuscan_Henn @ 5.789172
    3 TSI_HapMap @ 5.890182
    4 O_Italian_Dodecad @ 12.158504
    5 N_Italian_Dodecad @ 12.402679
    6 Tuscan_HGDP @ 16.422783
    7 Ashkenazy_Jews_Behar @ 16.593323
    8 North_Italian_HGDP @ 17.688528
    9 Ashkenazi_Dodecad @ 17.841017
    10 C_Italian_Dodecad @ 17.930902
    11 Portuguese_Dodecad @ 19.748495
    12 Romanians_14_Behar @ 21.162502
    13 French_HGDP @ 21.530539
    14 IBS_1000Genomes @ 21.712353
    15 French_Dodecad @ 21.973799
    16 Slovenian_Xing @ 22.102324
    17 Spaniards_Behar @ 22.287905
    18 Spanish_Dodecad @ 22.587999
    19 S_Italian_Sicilian_Dodecad @ 23.333891
    20 Morocco_Jews_Behar @ 24.114454

  18. #18
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    Sile's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Thanks, CL23: Y T1a2B L446

    Gedmatch ID: Z909242

    Dodecad V3:

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    50% S_Italian_Dodecad +50% N._European_Xing @ 2.237386


    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Tuscan_Xing @ 5.631067
    2 Tuscan_Henn @ 5.789172
    3 TSI_HapMap @ 5.890182
    4 O_Italian_Dodecad @ 12.158504
    5 N_Italian_Dodecad @ 12.402679
    6 Tuscan_HGDP @ 16.422783
    7 Ashkenazy_Jews_Behar @ 16.593323
    8 North_Italian_HGDP @ 17.688528
    9 Ashkenazi_Dodecad @ 17.841017
    10 C_Italian_Dodecad @ 17.930902
    11 Portuguese_Dodecad @ 19.748495
    12 Romanians_14_Behar @ 21.162502
    13 French_HGDP @ 21.530539
    14 IBS_1000Genomes @ 21.712353
    15 French_Dodecad @ 21.973799
    16 Slovenian_Xing @ 22.102324
    17 Spaniards_Behar @ 22.287905
    18 Spanish_Dodecad @ 22.587999
    19 S_Italian_Sicilian_Dodecad @ 23.333891
    20 Morocco_Jews_Behar @ 24.114454
    I was trying to get more SNP from this person
    he might be like the viking Canute who was T1a2-PH46 ....which is a split from our branch

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I was trying to get more SNP from this person
    he might be like the viking Canute who was T1a2-PH46 ....which is a split from our branch
    I'll check if you give me an organized snp list in hg19 format. Similar to what I posted above.

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Eupedia Forum mobile app

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