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Thread: J1-Z18271 - probably the haplogroup of Israelites?

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    Lightbulb J1-Z18271 - probably the haplogroup of Israelites?

    I think that it appears interestingly probable that haplogroup J-Z18271 (aka J-Y3088) is the lineage of biblical Israelites. TMRCA of this clade is estimated by YFull as 3000 ybp (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y3088/) and the estimates of YFull may be 15-25% too low. So it appears possible that the ancestor of Z18271 lived about 3500-4000 ybp.

    Here is link to Genogenea's J1 tree: http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree.

    One of Z18271* lineages was found in Great Britain (FTDNA #216524). It is probably id:YF13486 from YFull tree. The number of known lineages descending from Z18271 ancestor is at least 5 (according to Genogenea's tree) or about 7 (according to YFull tree).

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    Ethnic group
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    Country: United Kingdom



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The Israelites didn’t all descend from (the mythical) Abraham. There were many Y DNA lines amongst the Israelites, and they would have continued to assimilate a lot more for a good while. Later on, that became much rarer (in "proper" Jewish groups that plot near-ish to Cyprus), particularly among Ashkenazim, but it still happened (I’m Y DNA I1 and genetically and paper trail wise fully Ashkenazi - the most immediate non-Ashkenazi guy carrying the I1 I’m descended from would very likely have come from the Rhineland around the time of initial Jewish settlement).

    Assimilation eventually happens in all natural cultures (as in, the culture evolves without mostly forcefully being directed by something like written purity laws), and even in constrained cultures (like that of a small, endogamous tribe like Jews) it will occur to some degree. Look at the intermarriage rate among Western Reform Jews - it’s consistently above 50% (sometimes a lot above, like in America), correctly suggesting ethnocultural erosion (i.e. assimilation, which is a good thing mostly), but even in far far less pronounced cases it occurs (even in Haredim, where although incredulously rare, you get the odd convert marrying in and even producing offspring).

    There is no such thing as total purity.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J1-ZS241
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b3

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    Im ZS241 after testing SNP v3 Pack on Ftdna, still waiting for my big y results, autosomal results show me 55% Southeastern europe, 15% Iberian, 18% Sephardic, 12%Asia Minor

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    Eu sou J M267 no Negven deu J1a2a1a2 P58, sou natural de Teofilo Otoni MG, Brasil, estive lendo que esse halopgrupo é J1c3, mas não sei muita coisa.... no Pack SNP 267, tenho tanto Z18271 quanto o ZS241, entretanto, preciso comprar ele, há muitos SNPs judaicos e árabes no pack. Esse halopgrupo meu é de origem árabe... devido os matches que tenho todos são árabes....mas no gedmatch tenho muito matches askenazi... ai fico confuso...sei que será preciso fazer o BIG Y 500, para dirimir as dúvidas...

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Ashkenazi Jewish males carry Haplogroup J as their main Haplogroup and according many, many respected scientific papers, they are closely related to the males of the Levant. Ashkenazi females are said to be Italian in origin.

    The Hebrews originated from the ancient Canaanites because Hebrew is a Canaanite language in origin. The Israelites and Jews originated from the Hebrews so there are indigenous peoples of the Levant as according to Y-DNA.

    Haplogroup J originated in the Middle East 48 000 years ago and still is the majority Haplogroup of the indigenous peoples of the Middle East.

    All the above from Wikipedia.

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    Z18271 is the best candidate for haplogroup of Biblical Israelites. I suppose that FGC17491 lineage may be haplogroup of Judah's descendants (because it has 3 lineages with TMRCA about 2900 ybp in YFull, I think that age is about 20-25% older) and Y5400 may be Levi's lineage (which was seriously bottlenecked, so remaining samples may be from descendants of Aaron). It is possible that lineages of other Abraham's descendants than Jacob (sons of Keturah, Ishmael, Esau) did not survive to modern times.

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    There is another candidate for Israel's haplogroup from J-P58: Y6074 aka FGC8712: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y6074/.

    Its TMRCA estimated by YFull (3200 ybp) is a bit larger than TMRCA estimated for Y3088 (2900 ybp). Muhammad probably belonged to FGC8712 subclade.

    Most FGC8712 holders belong to lineage L859, which has 13 SNPs of bottleneck. Its age may be even about 2500 ybp, not only 1450 as YFull suggests.

    There is also ZS2121 lineage which has two subbranches: one (Jewish) with 20 SNPs of bottleneck (larger, TMRCA about 1500 - 2000 ybp) and one smaller, found in Armenia (id:YF15038).

    There is also result of FGC8712 without L859 and ZS2121 - maybe that lineage (id:YF01711) is of one of sons of Abraham and Keturah or Esau?

    Y3088 appears to be better candidate for Jacob's haplogroup because it is more popular among Jews that FGC8712 and more branched (Y3088 has 8 branches with TMRCA about 2900 ybp (which may be about 25% larger), while ZS2121 has only two recognised branches with age of formation about 3200 - 4000 ybp).

    Here is a tree of FGC8712 haplogroup: https://fgc8712.files.wordpress.com/...e-11222018.png.

    Here is a tree of J1 haplogroup (which probably was not edited since more than a year from now): http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree.

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    On Y3088 tree in YFull new sample of J-Y3088* appeared, its analysis is in progress. It looks that we have 9 separate branches of Z18271! Any other haplogroup does not correlate so well with Jewish people as Z18271. 7 of 9 branches of Z18271 have just one representative on YFull tree.

    FTDNA #161627 shares 5 SNPs with ERR1395620 from YFull tree.

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    On YFull another example of Y3088* appeared (id:YF19411 from Turkey). It looks that we know at least 10 separate lineages of Z18271. Maybe Ten Tribes were not lost? Now there is 12 samples of Y3088xY5400.

    On YFull tree there is 12 samples of Y5402 (subbranch of Y5400 aka S12192) with TMRCA just about 800 ybp.

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    On YFull tree we have new sample of Y3088* - id:YF63251. There are 11 lineages descending from Y3088 (Z18271) on that tree, 9 of them have only one sample.

    There are 25 samples of Y5400 (S12192), who share 13 SNPs. 13 of them have TMRCA about 800 ybp, according to YFull.

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    FGC8712 (& ZS2121) is a stronger candidate than Y3088 (& Z18271). If you trace back Y3088 to ZS241, its origin seems from South-Western Arabia (Yemeni) intercepted by a Phoenician migration to south Europe (Italy and Portugal). Here is an updated version of the ZS241 tree with stronger focus on branches above ZS227.
    https://fgc8712.files.wordpress.com/2019/05/zs241-tree-05092019.png

    For the reasons you mentioned on Feb. 7th, and many other reasons, FGC8712 remains a better representation of the biblical Abraham.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Eurasian
    MtDNA haplogroup
    Eurasian

    Ethnic group
    Caucasian
    Country: Afghanistan



    Where can I find admixture figures for Middle eastern ethnic groups like Jewish, Saudis, Lebanese, Persians, Egyptians. Please reply I need it very much.

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