Communism in Albania [emoji1025]

[Zanatis]

To answer blevins question:

What caused it? - Foreign (Soviet) influence, Western lack of interest (exclude maybe US a bit), and a bunch of Albanian charlatans, criminals, and losers with a strong support of many anti-Albanian non-Albanians working for the interests of the others. Before anyone goes on a rampage, I invite everyone to do their research and notice the high percentage of Vlachs in the Bureau, as well as Slavic Muslims and Greeks.

What do we learn from it? - We're not able to build a nation and we need foreign supervision like Albanians causally joke by saying that we should let Germans rule us for 100 years until we learn. Fan Noli put it perfectly when he fled Albania out of fear saying that "our nation is still a child who could kill his fathers". Basically we learnt that we kept the mercenary mindset.

What did we do to improve after communism? - Nothing.

What could we have done? - Wipe out all the monsters and hang them just like Romania did. You commit a crime, you pay for it, you don't just simply "resign" and inherit all the wealth and go undercover as businessmen funding the future "democratic" leaders by continuing to stay in power.

 

[LAB]

What caused it....and what do we learn from it.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

Greeks and ''Macedonians'' at Shkupi are on a dispute the last decades for the name Macedonia,
If Greece was isolated by communism they wouldn't have any argument about the use of the term 'Macedonia' by Slavic and Albanian speakers.
And after 50-60 years the world would knew that these people who originally spoke Bulgarian and Albanian are the descendants of ancient Macedonians, and by the time they would have revised their language to 'match' somehow with ancient ''Macedonian''.
So no Greece no veto for these folks.

If Albania was a democratic country after 1912 (impossible) or even after WW2, we would have a voice on the out world about our history and especially language, it would have been something like a VETO to the claims of Greeks that Albanian language is not related with modern Greek,
because until that time all historical books in Greece were actually confirming that indeed Albanian and Greek are related, simply because that time Greece was like modern ''Macedonia''.. a country whom the majority of population spoke Albanian and the rest spoke the language of Byzantium (church).
Of course today they call that Albanian propaganda, but it's their books and scholars who even today confirm this history and not the romantic one they want to promote.

So communism was a disaster in terms for the promotion of our identity on the rest of the world by stopping others to steal parts of it,
of course it offered us few things with a big cost, all the 'bunkers' built up by the communists were a good defense from Serbian-Greek agression, without them i strongly beileve that these 2 would have invade Albania,

By grewing up in Athens i've met lots of interesting people, i remember an old man that we knew each other for a while and one day he opens up a conversation in Albanian, i pressumed he was Arvanitis or that he was Albanian himslef who left the country during the communist era, but he just said no without answering my question, then he kept speaking Albanian while laughing and i've asked him again how he learn to speak them because it was surprising for me as he was not an ordinary person judging from the job he used to have,
so after lots of thinking he told me that he use to be a part of a team that were spying Albanian military radios etc for many years.

With few words, i personally beleive that the 'bunkers' build by Hoxha were useful because no one invaded the country,
we don't know if we would have the same history if we didn't have the bunkers.

If you want peace, prepare for war.

 

[LABERIA]

For someone who exagerrates, changes history, has as Avatar a Greek king
Signature in Greek, These words are an Honor,

you may run, but if you hide in 'dreams' then you are already in sleep.

Your problem is that I awake you to reality,

Poor boy, needs to sleep to dream of another world.

I don`t have an greek king as a avatar, but this is another topic.
Yetos, we all have understand your game and how you have been used and abused by others. Now, like an original macedonian, go play your oudi.

 

[Yetos]

I don`t have an greek king as a avatar, but this is another topic.
Yetos, we all have understand your game and how you have been used and abused by others. Now, like an original macedonian, go play your oudi.

you mean my zourna,

simply before you, Slavs also tried to steal our heritage
today like your cousins the Slavs,
Albanians also claim Makedonia and Epirus and Peloponese etc.

Yet if Arbanites are modern Hellenes
Then Arbanites also liberate 2 times Epirus
and 2 times diplomats deny libertation

I really wonder what the future Historian will write!!!!!

Now go back to sleep, and dream that you descent from Makedonians and Epirotans.

 

[Salento]

And the Ancient said:
“chi disprezza vuol comprare”

Hard to short translate in English.

Those that cynically criticize, speak with contempt, or say that don't like something for no good reason, is because they are jealous, or they can’t afford it to buy it, or they can’t achieve the same as the other.

Make more sense in Italian.

 

[Angela]

@Yetos,
I warned you. Now you have an infraction.

@Laberia
Back off or you'll get one too.

 

[Tutkun Arnaut]

The bellow are big Truths,

1,
They gather the people and show documentaries of Africa,
Telling them that this is Greece, so Capitalism etc
They explain that Greece was so poor
and that they send corn,
and after 100 km from borders exists lions, and the water is rare,


2,
it is told to me by an Albanian woman from Elbasan at 1993,
'When I first came to marry, (her husband already lived 3 years in Greece'
I was amazed,
I 've seen the kiwi, and I ask my husband,
Wow how come the Greeks are so 'infront' so to produce potatoes hanging on trees instead bellow fround?

3
there is an old lady in the mahalla, from Albania who dreams of Communism era,
when the olders say to her, oh it was so good?
she says yeah, I had vacations every summer, I had a house, etc, laws of labouring etc.
so the ask her,
If Hodxa was alive and Albania was communistic would you go back?
and she says 'Hell yeah'

btw sometimes when her son is near, he says
Yes mother, Thank God Greece has lions to hunt.


All iwant to say is that Communistic Albania was no different than other communistic countries,
only their isolation was a very good tool for the rulling nomen-class to claim whatever
more than 3 000 000 chinese AK47 had Hodxa hidden,

yet for some people life was better than today.

plz not to be misunderstood,
I am not a communist,
and never visit a communistic country except Yugoslavia the times of Communism.


btw
When I visit Albania I must say I could not understand the bellow
cause except 3000000 AK47
also exists more than 700 000 of this

in places that even you can not imagine.

the heaviest industry of concrete machine-guns pillar shelters/forts/guard-room in the world ever

ok today are usefull for young couples away from public eyes :grin:


the port of Bari Italy

[/QUOT

Yes, Albs were poor but had not a penny debt. Have you forgotten the whole world come to rescue to pay your debts? I wander where you find all that courage talk about Greece?

 

[blevins13]

To answer blevins question:

What caused it? - Foreign (Soviet) influence, Western lack of interest (exclude maybe US a bit), and a bunch of Albanian charlatans, criminals, and losers with a strong support of many anti-Albanian non-Albanians working for the interests of the others. Before anyone goes on a rampage, I invite everyone to do their research and notice the high percentage of Vlachs in the Bureau, as well as Slavic Muslims and Greeks.

What do we learn from it? - We're not able to build a nation and we need foreign supervision like Albanians causally joke by saying that we should let Germans rule us for 100 years until we learn. Fan Noli put it perfectly when he fled Albania out of fear saying that "our nation is still a child who could kill his fathers". Basically we learnt that we kept the mercenary mindset.

What did we do to improve after communism? - Nothing.

What could we have done? - Wipe out all the monsters and hang them just like Romania did. You commit a crime, you pay for it, you don't just simply "resign" and inherit all the wealth and go undercover as businessmen funding the future "democratic" leaders by continuing to stay in power.

For the once, that don’t know, Albanian become independent in 1912 but its elite was Osman feudalism landlords.....and the monarchy of Zog preserved that.....our middle class was very small, few merchants, no industry. Communist promises agrarian reforms, this boosted their support. Revolution do not happen every day, the situation has to be very bad for people to risk their life for better economic terms. If the people uprise for better social and economic terms, elites should hear them or else (world history has tough this lesson many times). To understand the cause internally, you should understand the economic situation of the Albanian People at that time. To find the cause you should understand why the Shepherds of Laberia supported Communism, did they understand it, were related to the soviets and Jugosllavs, or economic reasons pushed them to asked for new terms violently?


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

 

[Zanatis]

For the once, that don’t know, Albanian become independent in 1912 but its elite was Osman feudalism landlords.....and the monarchy of Zog preserved that.....our middle class was very small, few merchants, no industry. Communist promises agrarian reforms, this boosted their support. Revolution do not happen every day, the situation has to be very bad for people to risk their life for better economic terms. If the people uprise for better social and economic terms, elites should hear them or else (world history has tough this lesson many times). To understand the cause internally, you should understand the economic situation of the Albanian People at that time. To find the cause you should understand why the Shepherds of Laberia supported Communism, did they understand it, were related to the soviets and Jugosllavs, or economic reasons pushed them to asked for new terms violently?

That's a logical explanation, in an ideal world and country. The shepherds of Laberia got too involved in the war because they tried to steal from German food caravans and the Germans applied their rule of 'touch 1 of ours and we'll kill 10 or 100 or whatever'. That is the story of Terbaci and other villages where some of my family friends are from and were considered children of "heroes" but they humbly admitted what actually went on. Albanians lived by the gun in their entire history and never let anyone pass by peacefully, but that wasn't the case of us being abused by Germans and Italians unlike other nations and we could have just lived peacefully in the mountains and let them build roads and institutions and for the first time stop our ongoing extinction due to war while the world was going nuts committing some of the worst atrocities.

Again your conclusions are very romantic with the motto of "fighting for freedom" or for "economic reasons" but where you're wrong is that Albanians were so ignorant they had no idea what communism was and surely they didn't fight for communism at all. The actual communists (about 2,000 in total) used it to their advantage and allied themselves so whoever was fighting was unconsciously part of the communist front, but dont forget many from the Balli Kombetar was fighting too, so here's that.

So the shepherds of Laberia once again became mercenaries and after WW2 got to occupy so many offices and were raised to high ranks in the government, which for them it justifies all their actions and makes their risk worth it.

After the Germans lost began the real war in Albania where these shepherds of Laberia together with many others were sent up North to put down the rebellious anti-communists (apparently the only ones who smelled the BS going on) and boy didn't they do a great job. Killed thousands, raped thousands, tortured them, burned Catholics with boiling pig water and crucified many, not sparing priests either. Anyone wondering about the credibility of such claims feel free to research on Hodo Habibi, the famous Mehmet Shehu, and the war of Prek Cali against the communists, who was defeated with help from Serbia where communists surprised them by coming North from the Montenegrin border and not South like they expected. 8,000 heavily armed shepherds of Laberia and Mallakastra were sent to put down 300 "traitors" with the help of the "enemy", namely Serbs and Montenegrins.

So stop making this like Albanians made some democratic choice and went through so much thinking between choosing capitalism or communism. All they knew was how to set up traps, kill, rob, and go home with the booty. You really think these highlanders cared about the collective good and saw beyond their immediate interest?

Only after the fall of communism they really understood what's going on and some tried to disassociate themselves and some excuse themselves, while a good portion of them has an attack-first defensive strategy by blaming others for being traitors and convincing themselves their fathers and grandfathers were hereos who spilled blood against the enemy.

 

[blevins13]

That's a logical explanation, in an ideal world and country. The shepherds of Laberia got too involved in the war because they tried to steal from German food caravans and the Germans applied their rule of 'touch 1 of ours and we'll kill 10 or 100 or whatever'. That is the story of Terbaci and other villages where some of my family friends are from and were considered children of "heroes" but they humbly admitted what actually went on. Albanians lived by the gun in their entire history and never let anyone pass by peacefully, but that wasn't the case of us being abused by Germans and Italians unlike other nations and we could have just lived peacefully in the mountains and let them build roads and institutions and for the first time stop our ongoing extinction due to war while the world was going nuts committing some of the worst atrocities.

Again your conclusions are very romantic with the motto of "fighting for freedom" or for "economic reasons" but where you're wrong is that Albanians were so ignorant they had no idea what communism was and surely they didn't fight for communism at all. The actual communists (about 2,000 in total) used it to their advantage and allied themselves so whoever was fighting was unconsciously part of the communist front, but dont forget many from the Balli Kombetar was fighting too, so here's that.

So the shepherds of Laberia once again became mercenaries and after WW2 got to occupy so many offices and were raised to high ranks in the government, which for them it justifies all their actions and makes their risk worth it.

After the Germans lost began the real war in Albania where these shepherds of Laberia together with many others were sent up North to put down the rebellious anti-communists (apparently the only ones who smelled the BS going on) and boy didn't they do a great job. Killed thousands, raped thousands, tortured them, burned Catholics with boiling pig water and crucified many, not sparing priests either. Anyone wondering about the credibility of such claims feel free to research on Hodo Habibi, the famous Mehmet Shehu, and the war of Prek Cali against the communists, who was defeated with help from Serbia where communists surprised them by coming North from the Montenegrin border and not South like they expected. 8,000 heavily armed shepherds of Laberia and Mallakastra were sent to put down 300 "traitors" with the help of the "enemy", namely Serbs and Montenegrins.

So stop making this like Albanians made some democratic choice and went through so much thinking between choosing capitalism or communism. All they knew was how to set up traps, kill, rob, and go home with the booty. You really think these highlanders cared about the collective good and saw beyond their immediate interest?

Only after the fall of communism they really understood what's going on and some tried to disassociate themselves and some excuse themselves, while a good portion of them has an attack-first defensive strategy by blaming others for being traitors and convincing themselves their fathers and grandfathers were hereos who spilled blood against the enemy.

Let’s put this in a regression model, so according to you the reason for social change maybe caused by 8,000 Shepherds from Laberia that in the process of looting they brought communism, you are giving them to much credit. Plus before getting to PreK in Kelemend, there was Mati, Dukagjini, Dibra, Mirdita, this is impossible task. Your model does not hold in my logic. Such change comes when the majority of people want it....don’t full yourself. My model is logical Varible 1 - poverty caused by Osman landlords (Toptani, Verlaci, Vrioni,list goes on) caused social discontent, so people accepted the offer of the communist for free land. Certainly there are other variables......

I lived this scenario in Albania, the same people that brought communist in power, sent them to hell in 1990 when they had nothing to eat ....

And one more thing, Albanians are not ignorant, don’t say that any more to support your ideas.....they are the best people I know so far.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

 

[blevins13]

Hopefully some other Albanian will contribute to this thread to have different points of view.....


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

 

[LABERIA]

That's a logical explanation, in an ideal world and country. The shepherds of Laberia got too involved in the war because they tried to steal from German food caravans and the Germans applied their rule of 'touch 1 of ours and we'll kill 10 or 100 or whatever'. That is the story of Terbaci and other villages where some of my family friends are from and were considered children of "heroes" but they humbly admitted what actually went on. Albanians lived by the gun in their entire history and never let anyone pass by peacefully, but that wasn't the case of us being abused by Germans and Italians unlike other nations and we could have just lived peacefully in the mountains and let them build roads and institutions and for the first time stop our ongoing extinction due to war while the world was going nuts committing some of the worst atrocities.
Again your conclusions are very romantic with the motto of "fighting for freedom" or for "economic reasons" but where you're wrong is that Albanians were so ignorant they had no idea what communism was and surely they didn't fight for communism at all. The actual communists (about 2,000 in total) used it to their advantage and allied themselves so whoever was fighting was unconsciously part of the communist front, but dont forget many from the Balli Kombetar was fighting too, so here's that.
So the shepherds of Laberia once again became mercenaries and after WW2 got to occupy so many offices and were raised to high ranks in the government, which for them it justifies all their actions and makes their risk worth it.
After the Germans lost began the real war in Albania where these shepherds of Laberia together with many others were sent up North to put down the rebellious anti-communists (apparently the only ones who smelled the BS going on) and boy didn't they do a great job. Killed thousands, raped thousands, tortured them, burned Catholics with boiling pig water and crucified many, not sparing priests either. Anyone wondering about the credibility of such claims feel free to research on Hodo Habibi, the famous Mehmet Shehu, and the war of Prek Cali against the communists, who was defeated with help from Serbia where communists surprised them by coming North from the Montenegrin border and not South like they expected. 8,000 heavily armed shepherds of Laberia and Mallakastra were sent to put down 300 "traitors" with the help of the "enemy", namely Serbs and Montenegrins.
So stop making this like Albanians made some democratic choice and went through so much thinking between choosing capitalism or communism. All they knew was how to set up traps, kill, rob, and go home with the booty. You really think these highlanders cared about the collective good and saw beyond their immediate interest?
Only after the fall of communism they really understood what's going on and some tried to disassociate themselves and some excuse themselves, while a good portion of them has an attack-first defensive strategy by blaming others for being traitors and convincing themselves their fathers and grandfathers were hereos who spilled blood against the enemy.

I think you and blevins are wrong, you got the bull from the tail. First of all we need to clarify a couple of things. Albania during the history was always an easy country to be invaded, because we never had an state, but later starts the real problems for the foreign armies, because Albania has always been a "paradise" for the uprisings. Only during the period of Scanderbeg we had an consolidated state, able to fight even at the same moment against two big powers like Ottomans and Venetians.
The Labëria region is the region that has most influenced the twentieth century's history of Albania. The most important city of this region, in XX century until now is Vlora. Here was proclaimed the independence of Albania in 1912. Here there was the 1920 War of Vlora which was the turning point in the modern history of Albania. Here began the real resistance during the Second World War and here fell Berisha in 1997. At least on the first two events we all agree and we are not divided. The division begins during the second world war. Labëria together with the region of Mallakastër, which are practically our smallest brothers and they never betrayed us in history, were organized by the Communists in what was called, the First Operational Zone. It is true that Labëria has become the basis of power for the communists during the WWII and especially after the war, but it is also true that it was the basis of power for the nationalists of Balli Kombëtar, a party that started out as a social democratic force but then, as it was a war and there was no space for moderate ideas, it is passed to the right. Then in the region there was also a strong component loyal to King Zog, the zogists of Legalitet. And were exactly the members of the Balli Kombëtar who were the first to begin armed resistance in the region with the first important battle, The Battle of Gjorm where 1.600 members of Balli Kombëtar, headed by Hysni Lepenica and Skënder Muço started the war. The communists arrived later with 600 partizans headed by Mehmet Shehu. Italians in this battle were joined by the mercenaries arrived from North Albania headed by Halili Alia. Italians lost the battle and among the victims was the Italian commander Colonel Clementi. There vere retaliations by the Italians and the mercenaries of Alia against the civilians in Vlora, they also killed one of the most important Albanian nationalists Qazim Koculi.
After the armistizio, when Germans invaded Albania, there was again a battle in October 1943 against them, again Balli Kombëtar headed by Tasim Murati from Kanina and the communists headed by Hysni Kapo from Tërbaç against Germans in the battle of Drashovica. A couple of months later, during the Winter Operation there was the definitive split between communists and nationalists, split that was started after that communists betrayed the Mukja Agreement. So, the region was far from being simply red. The reason why the Labs started the war against Italians was because in year 1920 there was the War of Vlora and was easy to convince Labs to throw again Italians in the sea. You know, Labs are too much proud and we like so much to beat the chest, but from the other side, politics always used Vlora. I don't know if you follow the political situation now in Albania.
Now back to the topic. If you guys want to talk about communism in Albania, you can not start the discussion from the WWII and a mountainous region. Highlanders in Albania has always been ready for the next war.
First you have to explain the difference between the theoretical communism of Marx and the real communism of Stalin. Later you have to explain how communism entered in Albania, a feudal country without an working class. Later you have to talk about comunist groups, especially the groups of Shkodra and Korça and other minor groups, during the reign of King Zog and will be very interesting to learn your opinion on why the Albanian communists failed to create an comunist party even after that Ali Kelmendi arrived from Moscow. And how this party was created only two years later after King was deposed by the Italians. The role of the yugoslav comunists in the foundation of the Albanian comunist party. The split between this two comunists parties. The alliance of Albania with Soviet Union of Stalin and later the russo-albanian split after the meeting of 81 comunist parties in Moscow. The alliance with China and the sino-albanian split and later the stupidity of total isolation and the construction of socialism with our forces. Only in this way, maybe we can explain the comunist period in Albania.

 

[Zanatis]

Let’s put this in a regression model, so according to you the reason for social change maybe caused by 8,000 Shepherds from Laberia that in the process of looting they brought communism, you are giving them to much credit. Plus before getting to PreK in Kelemend, there was Mati, Dukagjini, Dibra, Mirdita, this is impossible task. Your model does not hold in my logic. Such change comes when the majority of people want it....don’t full yourself. My model is logical Varible 1 - poverty caused by Osman landlords (Toptani, Verlaci, Vrioni,list goes on) caused social discontent, so people accepted the offer of the communist for free land. Certainly there are other variables......

I lived this scenario in Albania, the same people that brought communist in power, sent them to hell in 1990 when they had nothing to eat ....

And one more thing, Albanians are not ignorant, don’t say that any more to support your ideas.....they are the best people I know so far.

I don't disagree with you in this post but that's because you misunderstood mine. 8,000 shepherds were sent against Prek Cali and nobody talked about these 8,000 bringing communism or whatever you understood. Be simple, open minded, read carefully, and avoid reading between lines. I always try to be as direct as possible so people don't have to go on and assume double meanings.

Before getting to Kelmendi there was Mati, Dukagjini, Mirdita? Yeah, so? As if I said he was the only one. It's an example my friend, don't expect me to write the entire history of those years of every region so that you don't assume I'm deliberately ignoring others. Again, don't read between lines.

To emphasize my point, the people didn't directly bring communism to power but through ignorance and manipulation that was the only option offered to them and a bunch of charlatans with foreign help took advantage of it. Do you really think people knew what communism was?

The only real communists were respected intellectuals and real patriots and even they came to understand that it doesn't work. All of them either escaped, got killed, sent to concentration camps, or imprisoned by "communists". Wiping out all the intellectuals was their first step and you as an Albanian should know that. Albania's population at the time was around 800,000 and the estimated number of people that suffered that fate was 80,000 or 10% of the population. As if it wasn't bad enough that we barely had any intellectuals that could build our nation, they actually had them all eliminated purposely.

I can't believe that an Albanian would think that Albanians at that time knew what communism is besides the fairy tale that "there will be bread for everyone". It's a ridiculous textbook revolution where the masses are raised and used with the promise of robbing the rich and giving it to the poor and that's what Albanians thought they were doing. Not installing an utopian actual system when the rate of literacy was ridiculously low.

As for Zogu, my region and my family suffered from him a lot and here I am saying that the country did exceptionally good under him like never before.

 

[blevins13]

I don't disagree with you in this post but that's because you misunderstood mine. 8,000 shepherds were sent against Prek Cali and nobody talked about these 8,000 bringing communism or whatever you understood. Be simple, open minded, read carefully, and avoid reading between lines. I always try to be as direct as possible so people don't have to go on and assume double meanings.

Before getting to Kelmendi there was Mati, Dukagjini, Mirdita? Yeah, so? As if I said he was the only one. It's an example my friend, don't expect me to write the entire history of those years of every region so that you don't assume I'm deliberately ignoring others. Again, don't read between lines.

To emphasize my point, the people didn't directly bring communism to power but through ignorance and manipulation that was the only option offered to them and a bunch of charlatans with foreign help took advantage of it. Do you really think people knew what communism was?

The only real communists were respected intellectuals and real patriots and even they came to understand that it doesn't work. All of them either escaped, got killed, sent to concentration camps, or imprisoned by "communists". Wiping out all the intellectuals was their first step and you as an Albanian should know that. Albania's population at the time was around 800,000 and the estimated number of people that suffered that fate was 80,000 or 10% of the population. As if it wasn't bad enough that we barely had any intellectuals that could build our nation, they actually had them all eliminated purposely.

I can't believe that an Albanian would think that Albanians at that time knew what communism is besides the fairy tale that "there will be bread for everyone". It's a ridiculous textbook revolution where the masses are raised and used with the promise of robbing the rich and giving it to the poor and that's what Albanians thought they were doing. Not installing an utopian actual system when the rate of literacy was ridiculously low.

As for Zogu, my region and my family suffered from him a lot and here I am saying that the country did exceptionally good under him like never before.

Zanatis my compatriot, at the very beginning I said, the Shepherds of Laberia did not understand communism so most of the Albanians. So why they support it.....my explanation, they offered them the land of the Osman landlords.....now in which part do you disagree with my statement.....I will accept everything if makes economic sense.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

 

[blevins13]

I think you and blevins are wrong, you got the bull from the tail. First of all we need to clarify a couple of things. Albania during the history was always an easy country to be invaded, because we never had an state, but later starts the real problems for the foreign armies, because Albania has always been a "paradise" for the uprisings. Only during the period of Scanderbeg we had an consolidated state, able to fight even at the same moment against two big powers like Ottomans and Venetians.
The Labëria region is the region that has most influenced the twentieth century's history of Albania. The most important city of this region, in XX century until now is Vlora. Here was proclaimed the independence of Albania in 1912. Here there was the 1920 War of Vlora which was the turning point in the modern history of Albania. Here began the real resistance during the Second World War and here fell Berisha in 1997. At least on the first two events we all agree and we are not divided. The division begins during the second world war. Labëria together with the region of Mallakastër, which are practically our smallest brothers and they never betrayed us in history, were organized by the Communists in what was called, the First Operational Zone. It is true that Labëria has become the basis of power for the communists during the WWII and especially after the war, but it is also true that it was the basis of power for the nationalists of Balli Kombëtar, a party that started out as a social democratic force but then, as it was a war and there was no space for moderate ideas, it is passed to the right. Then in the region there was also a strong component loyal to King Zog, the zogists of Legalitet. And were exactly the members of the Balli Kombëtar who were the first to begin armed resistance in the region with the first important battle, The Battle of Gjorm where 1.600 members of Balli Kombëtar, headed by Hysni Lepenica and Skënder Muço started the war. The communists arrived later with 600 partizans headed by Mehmet Shehu. Italians in this battle were joined by the mercenaries arrived from North Albania headed by Halili Alia. Italians lost the battle and among the victims was the Italian commander Colonel Clementi. There vere retaliations by the Italians and the mercenaries of Alia against the civilians in Vlora, they also killed one of the most important Albanian nationalists Qazim Koculi.
After the armistizio, when Germans invaded Albania, there was again a battle in October 1943 against them, again Balli Kombëtar headed by Tasim Murati from Kanina and the communists headed by Hysni Kapo from Tërbaç against Germans in the battle of Drashovica. A couple of months later, during the Winter Operation there was the definitive split between communists and nationalists, split that was started after that communists betrayed the Mukja Agreement. So, the region was far from being simply red. The reason why the Labs started the war against Italians was because in year 1920 there was the War of Vlora and was easy to convince Labs to throw again Italians in the sea. You know, Labs are too much proud and we like so much to beat the chest, but from the other side, politics always used Vlora. I don't know if you follow the political situation now in Albania.
Now back to the topic. If you guys want to talk about communism in Albania, you can not start the discussion from the WWII and a mountainous region. Highlanders in Albania has always been ready for the next war.
First you have to explain the difference between the theoretical communism of Marx and the real communism of Stalin. Later you have to explain how communism entered in Albania, a feudal country without an working class. Later you have to talk about comunist groups, especially the groups of Shkodra and Korça and other minor groups, during the reign of King Zog and will be very interesting to learn your opinion on why the Albanian communists failed to create an comunist party even after that Ali Kelmendi arrived from Moscow. And how this party was created only two years later after King was deposed by the Italians. The role of the yugoslav comunists in the foundation of the Albanian comunist party. The split between this two comunists parties. The alliance of Albania with Soviet Union of Stalin and later the russo-albanian split after the meeting of 81 comunist parties in Moscow. The alliance with China and the sino-albanian split and later the stupidity of total isolation and the construction of socialism with our forces. Only in this way, maybe we can explain the comunist period in Albania.

This story has so many side and most of us have lived its end.....to me the most important part is it’s genesis and the reason why.....? What is economic reasons, was it social reasons, was foreign intervention, was deception and lies mixed with ignorance, why most of the Albanians made that choice?

 

[Zanatis]

The Labëria region is the region that has most influenced the twentieth century's history of Albania. The most important city of this region, in XX century until now is Vlora. Here was proclaimed the independence of Albania in 1912. Here there was the 1920 War of Vlora which was the turning point in the modern history of Albania. Here began the real resistance during the Second World War and here fell Berisha in 1997. At least on the first two events we all agree and we are not divided.

You left a big whole in your chest here Lab lol
I'm not undermining your region but saying that it's the most influential region in Albania is too much as it's not even in the Top 3. Vlora was chosen for a political reason as South was not even free from Ottomans or Greeks. If you want to go by level of influence, first it's North-West Albania that was actually never fully submitted and gained it's independence way before the rest and it was there were the flag was first raised, in the peak of Deciq in Montenegro. Second to place comes Kosovo and I'm not gonna go and explain it because everyone one knows how much they bled for Albania's independence only to lose theirs in the end and not to mention the fact that our communist scum betrayed them after WW2. Then you can starting talking about the rest of North Albania like Mirdita, and Laberia, and so on.

The division begins during the second world war. Labëria together with the region of Mallakastër, which are practically our smallest brothers and they never betrayed us in history, were organized by the Communists in what was called, the First Operational Zone. It is true that Labëria has become the basis of power for the communists during the WWII and especially after the war, but it is also true that it was the basis of power for the nationalists of Balli Kombëtar, a party that started out as a social democratic force but then, as it was a war and there was no space for moderate ideas, it is passed to the right. Then in the region there was also a strong component loyal to King Zog, the zogists of Legalitet. And were exactly the members of the Balli Kombëtar who were the first to begin armed resistance in the region with the first important battle, The Battle of Gjorm where 1.600 members of Balli Kombëtar, headed by Hysni Lepenica and Skënder Muço started the war. The communists arrived later with 600 partizans headed by Mehmet Shehu. Italians in this battle were joined by the mercenaries arrived from North Albania headed by Halili Alia. Italians lost the battle and among the victims was the Italian commander Colonel Clementi. There vere retaliations by the Italians and the mercenaries of Alia against the civilians in Vlora, they also killed one of the most important Albanian nationalists Qazim Koculi.
After the armistizio, when Germans invaded Albania, there was again a battle in October 1943 against them, again Balli Kombëtar headed by Tasim Murati from Kanina and the communists headed by Hysni Kapo from Tërbaç against Germans in the battle of Drashovica. A couple of months later, during the Winter Operation there was the definitive split between communists and nationalists, split that was started after that communists betrayed the Mukja Agreement. So, the region was far from being simply red. The reason why the Labs started the war against Italians was because in year 1920 there was the War of Vlora and was easy to convince Labs to throw again Italians in the sea. You know, Labs are too much proud and we like so much to beat the chest, but from the other side, politics always used Vlora. I don't know if you follow the political situation now in Albania.

It seems that you agree with me that there was no need nor actual cause for war but as always Albanians being manipulated and raised against the country that did the least bad to us in our entire history, Italy. My grandfather was a very high ranked who's name is everywhere in today's newspapers for WW2 or communism related topics so I don't like to share personal info and we know for a fact that Italians didn't even want to fight us and they were shooting in the air and retreating They were humane and forced to be there but our beasts couldn't wait to draw blood at first sight. Don't get me wrong, I'm proud of those "beasts" an I'm not some modern day "Euro-Albanian" acting up all civilized and hating on our true values as Albanians. Just to say that it was a misplaced anger.

Now back to the topic. If you guys want to talk about communism in Albania, you can not start the discussion from the WWII and a mountainous region. Highlanders in Albania has always been ready for the next war.
First you have to explain the difference between the theoretical communism of Marx and the real communism of Stalin. Later you have to explain how communism entered in Albania, a feudal country without an working class. Later you have to talk about comunist groups, especially the groups of Shkodra and Korça and other minor groups, during the reign of King Zog and will be very interesting to learn your opinion on why the Albanian communists failed to create an comunist party even after that Ali Kelmendi arrived from Moscow. And how this party was created only two years later after King was deposed by the Italians. The role of the yugoslav comunists in the foundation of the Albanian comunist party. The split between this two comunists parties. The alliance of Albania with Soviet Union of Stalin and later the russo-albanian split after the meeting of 81 comunist parties in Moscow. The alliance with China and the sino-albanian split and later the stupidity of total isolation and the construction of socialism with our forces. Only in this way, maybe we can explain the comunist period in Albania.

Yeah we have to start with these mountain regions because blevins asked how it began and they were the tool used to bring communism not some anti-Albanian scum from a party created by Serbs. Like I said before, look at the list of non-Albanians in Bureau and that of "fallen hereos". Enver Hoxha himself was from Gjirokastra but his family moved there recently and nobody knew where he was from with claims being from Montenegro. Same suspicions were raised for Nexhmije being Slavic Muslim just like Ramiz Alia was a Bosniak from Shkodra and these are the hidden ones because the Vlachs, Serbs, and Greeks are known by everyone as they were influential leaders. They had no interest in Albania whatsoever and their loyalty lies beyond the border.

 

[Zanatis]

This story has so many side and most of us have lived its end.....to me the most important part is it’s genesis and the reason why.....? What is economic reasons, was it social reasons, was foreign intervention, was deception and lies mixed with ignorance, why most of the Albanians made that choice?

How about a mix of all? There's truth to every single one of your points.

Economic reasons? Of course, we've always been poor and we'll continue to be for a while.

Social reasons? Of course, we're human beings.

Foreign intervention? Of course, we know that already from the creation of the Communist Party to alliances and support of specific individuals from both sides, communists and capitalists alike.

Deception and lies? Of course, it's not hard to deceive ignorant masses especially when it comes to fighting the enemy or robbing the rich. They're always ready.

Why most Albanians made that choice? First of all, most of Albanians did not make that choice. There were literally only 2,000 registered communists. The rest of the story was a snowball effect. You need only 100 people with knowledge and foreign support, where each of them hires 10 cutthroats and there you have 1,000 armed revolutionaries. It's enough to control all Albanain regions one by one and grow stronger.

Zanatis my compatriot, at the very beginning I said, the Shepherds of Laberia did not understand communism so most of the Albanians. So why they support it.....my explanation, they offered them the land of the Osman landlords.....now in which part do you disagree with my statement.....I will accept everything if makes economic sense.

Isn't it useless to ask that question? Where in the world did the poor reject the offer to take weapons and rob the rich? Textbook scenario.

 

[LABERIA]

This story has so many side and most of us have lived its end.....to me the most important part is it’s genesis and the reason why.....? What is economic reasons, was it social reasons, was foreign intervention, was deception and lies mixed with ignorance, why most of the Albanians made that choice?

Blevins, if you want to discuss about historical events you have to make an analysis of all factors. Factors can be divided in two, internal and external. When we talk about a small country like Albania, obviously the most important factors are the external. Let me give some examples. The first reason why comunists emerged was because Albania was invaded by Italy. King Zog had an powerful secret police and he practically controlled the comunist movement in Albania. Before the invasion of the country from Italy, he arrested a large group of comunists and there was a trial. After that the country was invaded by Italy there was an vacuum of power. And in this moment, after the invasion of Yugoslavia, the Yugoslav comunists took the opportunity to infiltrate. At the end of the war, Albanian comunists decided to ally with slavs because, among many other reasons, Great Britain before and in the Peace Conference of Paris wanted again to finish what they could not finish in the WWI, giving South Albania to Greece. So, first of all, communism was a gift from Italians, because they with the invasion of country destroyed the status quo and Albania entered in a complicated situation. I just mentioned three factors.

 

[LABERIA]

You left a big whole in your chest here Lab lol
I'm not undermining your region but saying that it's the most influential region in Albania is too much as it's not even in the Top 3. Vlora was chosen for a political reason as South was not even free from Ottomans or Greeks. If you want to go by level of influence, first it's North-West Albania that was actually never fully submitted and gained it's independence way before the rest and it was there were the flag was first raised, in the peak of Deciq in Montenegro. Second to place comes Kosovo and I'm not gonna go and explain it because everyone one knows how much they bled for Albania's independence only to lose theirs in the end and not to mention the fact that our communist scum betrayed them after WW2. Then you can starting talking about the rest of North Albania like Mirdita, and Laberia, and so on.


It seems that you agree with me that there was no need nor actual cause for war but as always Albanians being manipulated and raised against the country that did the least bad to us in our entire history, Italy. My grandfather was a very high ranked who's name is everywhere in today's newspapers for WW2 or communism related topics so I don't like to share personal info and we know for a fact that Italians didn't even want to fight us and they were shooting in the air and retreating They were humane and forced to be there but our beasts couldn't wait to draw blood at first sight. Don't get me wrong, I'm proud of those "beasts" an I'm not some modern day "Euro-Albanian" acting up all civilized and hating on our true values as Albanians. Just to say that it was a misplaced anger.



Yeah we have to start with these mountain regions because blevins asked how it began and they were the tool used to bring communism not some anti-Albanian scum from a party created by Serbs. Like I said before, look at the list of non-Albanians in Bureau and that of "fallen hereos". Enver Hoxha himself was from Gjirokastra but his family moved there recently and nobody knew where he was from with claims being from Montenegro. Same suspicions were raised for Nexhmije being Slavic Muslim just like Ramiz Alia was a Bosniak from Shkodra and these are the hidden ones because the Vlachs, Serbs, and Greeks are known by everyone as they were influential leaders. They had no interest in Albania whatsoever and their loyalty lies beyond the border.

I don't deny the contributions of all Albanian regions. I said influenced. Albanian patriots, first decided to proclame the indipendence in Durrës. But Durrës was not a safe place because the Serbian army was coming. For this reason Ismail Qemali decides to go to his hometown where he felt safe. That's all. But let's not change the topic.

 

[blevins13]

How about a mix of all? There's truth to every single one of your points.

Economic reasons? Of course, we've always been poor and we'll continue to be for a while.

Social reasons? Of course, we're human beings.

Foreign intervention? Of course, we know that already from the creation of the Communist Party to alliances and support of specific individuals from both sides, communists and capitalists alike.

Deception and lies? Of course, it's not hard to deceive ignorant masses especially when it comes to fighting the enemy or robbing the rich. They're always ready.

Why most Albanians made that choice? First of all, most of Albanians did not make that choice. There were literally only 2,000 registered communists. The rest of the story was a snowball effect. You need only 100 people with knowledge and foreign support, where each of them hires 10 cutthroats and there you have 1,000 armed revolutionaries. It's enough to control all Albanain regions one by one and grow stronger.


Isn't it useless to ask that question? Where in the world did the poor reject the offer to take weapons and rob the rich? Textbook scenario.

In general, I prefer a balanced social society similar to Nordic Countries with a healthy middle class, everything else is a ticking bomb. To answer your question, if the poor become a majority, and no middle class than boom [emoji95], textbook scenario as you say. I will rest my argument here for today.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum