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Thread: Ancient genomes from Caucasus inc. Maykop

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    Why, apart from genetics, would that geographical location be a candidate for early PIE?
    Stop cherry picking from my posts. You only answer the parts you like, and elegantly leave the rest out.
    I remember why i told you on AG i wouldn't reply you anymore. You seriously lack the theoretical knowledge to be able to discuss something that happened that long ago.

    The last answer you will ever get from me in any forum:

    Apart from half of their genetics, the whole culture, the animals, the way of living, the wheels, the metals and the tools of the steppe people descend from the populations south of the caucasus.
    Before the advent of the southerners, they were nothing but hunter gatherers.
    I simply have a hard time seeing why the southerners should have a hard time imposing their language upon a couple of small bands of primitive hunters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernekar View Post
    Stop cherry picking from my posts. You only answer the parts you like, and elegantly leave the rest out.
    I remember why i told you on AG i wouldn't reply you anymore. You seriously lack the theoretical knowledge to be able to discuss something that happened that long ago.

    The last answer you will ever get from me in any forum:

    Apart from half of their genetics, the whole culture, the animals, the way of living, the wheels, the metals and the tools of the steppe people descend from the populations south of the caucasus.
    Before the advent of the southerners, they were nothing but hunter gatherers.
    I simply have a hard time seeing why the southerners should have a hard time imposing their language upon a couple of small bands of primitive hunters.
    When the real self emerge from the limbo of the soul. You only have 34 messages here and you talk like you know everything. Epoch is a long time amateur in that community, he knows pretty much every possibility genetically, linguistically, culturally about the spread of PIE in ancient times. You better not turn out to be the sockpuppet of a more older user... If people brainstorm and question hypothesis this is not because triggering, this is because there is matter to question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Dude... your statement is the proof that IE hypothesis turns into Political Correctness, your kurgans that you despite is the reason for IE's all over western and eastern europe with central asia and south asia. But no, Anatolians are more important, because... ? You seems to think like others, and even maybe those scientists, that if PIE came from the south caucasus it annihile all the rest of the history, like a pure Communist dream utopia. I'm not really choked, this is pretty much 2018.
    This is ignorance, being proven wrong and then accusing everyone of being Communists. You do not even know what the importance of the Anatolian branches for the PIE matter is, so how are you still speaking? And nobody is fighting your Steppe cowboys expanding their language further to Europe, but they were not PIE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Well, the text you're quoting actually assumes that PIE was the language spoken by the Yamnaya culture, and it explicitly states that, according to Kristiansen, PRE-PIE was spoken by a predecessor language probably in the Caucasus. PIE, let's remember, does not the ultimate, most ancient form of the language family from which PIE arose (yes, PIE was also once just one language belonging to a larger family, as all other tongues except for strict isolates). It means "the last stage of the common ancestor of IE language families". The text you mention seems to indicate that Kristiansen is a supporter of the Indo-Hittite hypothesis, separating Hittite and the Anatolian languages from the rest and considering it a sister family to PIE and its descendants.
    You do not even know what is written there and act up. It is little terminology. They use the word "Ur" (which I translated plainly as "Pre") since the only language family from that "Ur" culture is Anatolian and Yamnaya. Because Yamnaya however is the predecessor of most existing IE languages they added a Pre ("Ur"). Btw. "Ur" does not mean "pre", there is no such word in English. It rather is used for direct predecessors ("Vorläufervolk"). Great-grandfather is in German "Urgroßvater". Anyway, this is little terminology so nothing as that you could act up like that.
    A definition which fits in this case by Duden on the word "Ur":
    "kennzeichnet in Bildungen mit Substantiven – seltener mit Adjektiven – jemanden oder etwas als Ausgangspunkt, als weit zurückliegend, am Anfang liegend"
    Translation:
    marks in connection with nouns - rarer with adjectives - somebody or something as starting point (literally: "place of departure"), as far back, lying at the beginning.
    Last edited by raspberry; 23-05-18 at 19:05.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    When the real self emerge from the limbo of the soul. You only have 34 messages here and you talk like you know everything. Epoch is a long time amateur in that community
    So what if i have 34 posts. I try to keep it down on purpose.

    Yes he is a long time amateur, i'm an archaeologist.
    You know, those guys with the trowels who are writing the papers which the amateurs discuss. What counts more in your eyes?
    In 3-4 years you are going to quote my papers on this forum and you are going to see my name on a lot of these archaeogenetic collaborations.
    By that time you and epoch will still be on eurogenes and AG trying to push forward your disinformation.

    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    he knows pretty much every possibility genetically, linguistically, culturally about the spread of PIE in ancient times. You better not turn out to be the sockpuppet of a more older user... If people brainstorm and question hypothesis this is not because triggering, this is because there is matter to question.
    You don't know what you are talking about. He doesn't know anything. He hasn't read one single book on archaeological theory in his whole life. I can see that in every post he makes.
    All he does is bring forward conspiracy theories which contradict what all the great institutes like Max planck, Copenhagen geogenetics and Harvard Labs. are saying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    The most simple explanation is that Maikop is more likely the origin of the Kartvelian side in IE languages. We can't legitimally take any Hittite sample for granted, their elite got burned and their people were mostly native to the place.
    That is some bold statement and there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever for that my friend. Only some wishfull thinking of some bloggers. Hittites and Hattians became pretty much one and the same people (they basically merged). And their number was most likely equal. If there was even 10% Hittite inclusion into the Hatti population and you consider the Hittites as Steppe migrants, the way the Hatti and Hitittes became one people you would guarantee at least ~3-4% extra EHG admixture in comparison to their surroundings. But there is absolutely no sign for that.

    That EHG is partially ANE, so at the end of the day, R1 had to have something to do with EHG if its not Q1a. We should probably also wait for the Willerslev Maikop paper that could have more sample of proper Maikop and surrounding steppes. All that Maikop and Kura-Araxes relation might be however interesting in the case of semitic languages or related hurrian languages and their historical relationship.
    Imo Kartvellian is descend of an ANF family and not a CHG one. Maikop is not a homogenous culture. The North was Steppe admixed the South more ANF what if towards Leyla Tepe we find a little different genetic structure. Maikop was halfway ANF. Therefore it is quite possible that Kartvellian evolved out of a portion of Maikop. But I would not rule out that Hittites themselves might have evolved from there too. After Maikop was influenced by a Proto Indo European culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    No, Hittite should be an early offshoot, possibly pre-Yamnaya and there is a fairly good candidate that would give enough time for dilution. Suvorovo-NovoDanilovka. A kurgan culture most likely from Sredny Stog, buried in barrows, sometime with zoomorphic scepters just like Khvalynsk. Settled in Mldavia, but also settled in the Danube delta, as direct successor of Varna round 4.400 BC. Remember that Varna outlier?
    Well that could be... if we found any EHG signs, remember no additional EHG in Anatolian Samples and the yDNA does not fit the Steppes.



    It's for an invasive culture quite natural to take on local wives.
    Just that Hittite is not a "invasive culture". You are missing out allot here. You might have not known but by the time of the early Hittites there were no Charriots. Hittites were not even known horse tamers. They imported horses from Mitanni. In fact Hittite culture was basically Hattian. What kind of "invasive culture " completely assimilates into the "local culture?" Also there are historic proves that the relationship between Hittites and Hattians was not that of Invaders vs the conquered. No matter how often this superstition is repeated, it will not become more than wishfull thinking.

    The next step would be Turkish Europe, where a at least one bronze age Kurgan style burial was found recently. If Luwians expanded from that, and Hittites from Luwians or somewhere around them, you'd see at least four steps. Enough time and enough movement for dilution. And it did leave traces of EHG.

    PS: This is David Anthony's explanation.
    "Bronze Age Kurgan Style burials" are found in the Caucasus too and they even predate Khvalynsk. That's what Anthony missed out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    A lot of different processes of Indo-Europeanization, including a complete revolution in a people's autosomal makeup, could happen in ~2300 years, especially if the Hittite society was, as it seems from archaeological and linguistic evidences, mainly a result of a gradual, non-massive infiltration and/or eventual elite conquest. Just look at some Turkic-speaking populations now and how much Northeast Siberian and East Asian they still carry after a mere ~1500 years of immigration, mixing and acculturation.
    And the Turkic speaking groups are the best example of why even the most admixed groups still show signs of their ancestors in their DNA. You are making the mistake that you equate Turkic with East Eurasian DNA. But even the most pure Turkic speaking groups are at least 25% West Eurasian. Take in mind the distance between the first Turkic speaking groups and Anatolian Turks. And that the Anatolian Turks are from the Oghuz branch which evolved somewhere around modern day Turkmenistan. So the source for the Anatolian Turks are actually Turkmenistanis and not Kyrgyz. Even if you take Kyrgyz you still get something around 10% Turkic admixture. But if you take Turkmenistanis the admixture rises up to 20-30%.

    "proto Steppe Hittites" completely ignoring their own females and going all out on "local" Hattian wifes is a possibility, but does that sound plausible. Not for me.

    If that's what happened than for real they must have hated their own females or those girls must have been really really not good looking.
    Last edited by Alan; 23-05-18 at 15:23.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    That is some bold statement and there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever for that my friend. Only some wishfull thinking of some bloggers. Hittites and Hattians became pretty much one and the same people (they basically merged). And their number was most likely equal. If there was even 10% Hittite inclusion into the Hatti population and you consider the Hittites as Steppe migrants, the way the Hatti and Hitittes became one people you would guarantee at least ~3-4% extra EHG admixture in comparison to their surroundings. But there is absolutely no sign for that.
    Well that's the same reasoning in the other side, if Maikop were CHG who give PIE to the steppe and later return south in Anatolia we should saw some EHG because Maikop have EHG, so if we didn't found any EHG is that those sample are neither related to the steppe, neither with Maikop. You actually applied the same mistakes you put to the steppe hypothesis into the southern hypothesis. Anatolians whatever the hypothesis need EHG, that they came from proper steppe or from Maikop / Kura-Araxes. Why you dont actually applied the " sample bias " to those anatolians one when you applied them into the steppe in the past ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Imo Kartvellian is descend of an ANF family and not a CHG one. Maikop is not a homogenous culture. The North was Steppe admixed the South more ANF what if towards Leyla Tepe we find a little different genetic structure. Maikop was halfway ANF. Therefore it is quite possible that Kartvellian evolved out of a portion of Maikop. But I would not rule out that Hittites themselves might have evolved from there too. After Maikop was influenced by a Proto Indo European culture.
    That is actually a bold statement.

    We shall not discuss about Leyla-Tepe or Shulaveri Shomu until we have samples from them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry View Post
    This is ignorance, being proven wrong and then accusing everyone of being Communists. You do not even know what the importance of the Anatolian branches for the PIE matter is, so how are you still speaking? And nobody is fighting your Steppe cowboys expanding their language further to Europe, but they were not PIE.
    You even say yourself on Anthrogenica " you dont believe what those people say because they are right winged ". You complain about the negative reputation here, but you just give me a negative response. If you are not a *****, you are definitely mindless.

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    Someone else directed towards me a comment about Maikop being J1, G2 and L while Hittites J2 and G2. And therefore it not being plausible that Maikop is ancestral to Hittites.

    Well there being absolutely zero link between Steppe and Hittite yDNA doesn't hinder the persons in their theory of a Steppe origin for Hittites now does it? So why is suddenly G2 link not enough to assume a connection?

    Also where you find J1, J2 is usually not far away. They are still close enough. There being a complete lack of R1b L51 on the Steppe doesn't hinder the same persons to assume that it must have come from there, since R1b is found at this spot on mass, so why do they not show the same level of conviction in the case of Hittites and Maikop.

    It's not only the yDNA that Maikop shares with Hittite. It's also in the aDNA. It is very similar.

    Now let me give you few facts that speak against a Steppe origin of Hittites and why I am not convinced it comes from there.

    1. Their aDNA. It absolutely shows no sign of "Steppe admixture" that has not been found already in previous samples from their surrounding.
    2. Their yDNA. It shows no signs of Steppe admixture if we assume J2 and G2 were not found in the Steppe cultures.
    3. The Elite argument does not work with Hittites due to their relationship with Hattians and the way the society was build. But even in the case of "Hittite" dominance above the "local" Hattians you would expect at least Steppe related yDNA.
    4. Some of the more important linguistic points. Hittite,(don't know about Tocharian) is the only Indo European language that differs drastically from all the other Indo European families. If all the other Indo European families, of which we are pretty sure they originated on the Steppe share something that this one very archaic Indo European language called Hittite lacks. Than I would naturally assume this Hittite did not evolve at the same place as the other.

    5. Another important point in my view. But not sure if true. I have heard that Hittite is the only known (not sure of Tocharian) Indo European language that lacks Finno_Ugric loanwords. If this is true, this can only mean. Hittite left the rest of the bunch before they came into contact with Finno_Ugrics how much more obvious than that can it be?


    My own theory is this. I don't think Maikop is in origin PIE but part of it was Indo European or Indo Europeanized in that way that it might have given birth to Hittites and the other Anatolian branches. How does that work?

    Well let me try to explain. If my theory of a NW Iran/Leyla Tepe origin of PIE(or PPIE) is true, than pioneers of this group would walk into two direction.

    One into Maykop where they meet the Proto Hatti and the other directly into the Steppes. Those who went into Maykop became known as the Hittites. And I am thinking of the possibility that the Hattians and Hittites already met in Maykop and this might explain the one people structure of their society.

    https://img3.picload.org/image/doldw..._all_sites.jpg

    Please note: the Theory that Hittite and Hattians already met in Maykop and that Hittite actually stems from Maykop is just some speculative idea that I think has gained some weight due to the DNA found in Maykop and among the Hittites. It is not a theory I am 100% sure off.

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    @Halfalp I can't answer your post now but one think. Please read my post again. I never said Maykop is PIE. I am saying Maykop is/might be influenced by PIE and Hittite might be the result of this influence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Someone else directed towards me a comment about Maikop being J1, G2 and L while Hittites J2 and G2. And therefore it not being plausible that Maikop is ancestral to Hittites.

    Well there being absolutely zero link between Steppe and Hittite yDNA doesn't hinder the persons in their theory of a Steppe origin for Hittites now does it? So why is suddenly G2 link not enough to assume a connection?

    Also where you find J1, J2 is usually not far away. They are still close enough. There being a complete lack of R1b L51 on the Steppe doesn't hinder the same persons to assume that it must have come from there, since R1b is found at this spot on mass, so why do they not show the same level of conviction in the case of Hittites and Maikop.

    It's not only the yDNA that Maikop shares with Hittite. It's also in the aDNA. It is very similar.

    Now let me give you few facts that speak against a Steppe origin of Hittites and why I am not convinced it comes from there.

    1. Their aDNA. It absolutely shows no sign of "Steppe admixture" that has not been found already in previous samples from their surrounding.
    2. Their yDNA. It shows no signs of Steppe admixture if we assume J2 and G2 were not found in the Steppe cultures.
    3. The Elite argument does not work with Hittites due to their relationship with Hattians and the way the society was build. But even in the case of "Hittite" dominance above the "local" Hattians you would expect at least Steppe related yDNA.
    4. Some of the more important linguistic points. Hittite,(don't know about Tocharian) is the only Indo European language that differs drastically from all the other Indo European families. If all the other Indo European families, of which we are pretty sure they originated on the Steppe share something that this one very archaic Indo European language called Hittite lacks. Than I would naturally assume this Hittite did not evolve at the same place as the other.

    5. Maybe the most important point in my view. But not sure if true. I have heard that Hittite is the only known (not sure of Tocharian) Indo European language that lacks Finno_Ugric loanwords. If this is true, this can only mean. Hittite left the rest of the bunch before they came into contact with Finno_Ugrics how much more obvious than that can it be?


    My own theory is this. I don't think Maikop is in origin PIE but part of it was Indo European or Indo Europeanized in that way that it might have given birth to Hittites and the other Anatolian branches. How does that work?

    Well let me try to explain. If my theory of a NW Iran/Leyla Tepe origin of PIE(or PPIE) is true, than pioneers of this group would walk into two direction.

    One into Maykop where they meet the Proto Hatti and the other directly into the Steppes. Those who went into Maykop became known as the Hittites. And I am thinking of the possibility that the Hattians and Hittites already met in Maykop and this might explain the one people structure of their society.

    https://img3.picload.org/image/doldw..._all_sites.jpg

    Please note: the Theory that Hittite and Hattians already met in Maykop and that Hittite actually stems from Maykop is just some speculative idea that I think has gained some weight due to the DNA found in Maykop and among the Hittites. It is not a theory I am 100% sure off.
    Maikop is J2a not J1, it's Kura-Araxe that is J1. G2 is also linked with modern Caucasian Languages no ?

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    And Olympus Mons, can you please stop negative writing all my posts because you dont like me >.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Maikop is J2a not J1, it's Kura-Araxe that is J1. G2 is also linked with modern Caucasian Languages no ?
    That's what I said at the beginning but someone tried to tell me Hittites were J2a and Maykop J1. So Maykop was J2a, G2 L and what about Hittites? Weren't say J2 and G2 too? Still even if they were J1 my argument still stays.

    I explained myself in the posts above. I believe Caucasian languages (at least Kartvelian) is linked to ANF ancestry and therefore G2. The reason for this is simple. Kartvelian shows linguistic structures also found in Basque but lacking in other (ergativity) and Kartvelians are dominated by G2 Haplogroup too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    And Olympus Mons, can you please stop negative writing all my posts because you dont like me >.
    What is negative writing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpenjager View Post
    I would change "dominance" by "abundance" is not equivalent.
    Don't hold to strickly to that. If today I would have written it very differently. ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    At the end of the day you are still wrong. If Yamnaya and R1b ( wich is so much a ridiculous statement because M269 is not R1b it's M269 ) came genetically from Shulaveri-Shomu, they would not be 60% EHG but more likely 80% CHG. And what do you mean by " homeland of all western europeans " wtf is that kind of statement. I hope they give you your freaking R1b-M269 in Shulaveri just so you can do something else of your life and not being obsessed by genetic anymore.
    Kid, grow up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    Then tell me: Why, apart from genetics, would that culture be a candidate for being an early PIE culture?



    But early PIE and late PIE don't show different substrates. The scenario you propose would even make that more remarkable than if Shulaveri was PIE entirely.



    Good, let us go by that road: Why, apart from genetics, would that geographical location be a candidate for early PIE?

    Apart from Genetics.
    (note: you do realize that for all the 3 main labs to have changed their mind and making a bullseye in the Shulaveri land it’s because they know what as not been published, right?)
    First, I need to write an entry on Kickedoutdogs (https://r1b2westerneurope.blogs.sapo.pt/) about *****ed pearl culture!

    Ok, apart from genetics. --- “would that culture be a candidate for being an early PIE culture”


    1. about the *****ed pearl culture (it masks Pri.c.ked). Some know it by svobodnoe settlement is actually the shulaveri arriving to north Caucasus. Only when I read the google translation from russian of the wiki *****ed pearl culture did I get it so clearly: Shulaveri, agriculture, pastoral, shulaleri spoons, antler, carnelian beads, etc--- and copper! – so, 4800bc. The story of early *****ed pearl as shulaveri moving to kuban river, then overrun by incoming later bla bla,etc that led to Maykop...


    So, in a nutshell. Shulaveri had all the baggage of agriculture, all the baggage of pastoral, all the topominia baggage, metal baggage, horse baggage…. You name it. and, why not, the perfect place to be the start of the most common tale of the PIE, the hero that killed the snake/Dragon, because they were gone the moment Ubaid, snake people, arrived to their land.

    In time for be the ignite of PIE dispersal I don’t really know of any local culture with the number, the amount of settlement and population density to be source of a language and most important they were the ones gone the moment agriculture arrived to Steppe, etc... this could go on, and on and on.

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    Gentlemen, dial it back on the language and the negative aspersions please.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Promenade View Post
    "At the community level, bioarchaeological investigations seriously challenge the hypothesis of large-scale mobility both in piedmont and in steppe environments.
    "Burials and the transportation involved need not necessarily imply mobile individuals or mobile communities. While the usefulness of wheeled transport for pastoral communities living in steppe environments is indisputable, this need not entail large-scale mobility or long-distance migrations."
    Then, how to explain yamna migration to altai?

    As far as I know, wagon was not found in afanasievo of which kurgan is not earthen mounds. They have Q1a.
    Interersting thing is the oldest wagon was found in the kurgan of Q1a2 in Maykop steppe where they reused Maykop mound. why?

    During the 3rd millennium, Yamnaya groups used the Maykop mound and added several graves in central positions and on the periphery as well as at least one new mound-shell. The last interments (graves 1, 2, 7,8 and wagon grave 9) belong to the late Bronze Age Catacomb period. Empty grave 10 can only roughly be dated to the Middle Bronze Age. Mound 6 in Sharakhalsun revealed four complexes with remains of wooden wagons belonging to different cultural formations. It is one of few places with a concentration of wagon burials among the hundreds of excavated mounds in the vicinity and yielded the oldest dated wooden wagon so far in grave 18. This individual probably was one of the first that adopted this new technology in the North Caucasian and Caspian steppe41. The complexes of Sharakhalsun are part of a larger bioarchaeological study and are scheduled for full publication in 2019. Five individuals produced genome-wide data
    Quote Originally Posted by Promenade View Post
    "Only in the following late 3rd and early 2nd millennia BC in the South Caucasus, Eastern Anatolia and Mesopotamia did wagon burials become formalised status markers for elite burials (Sagona 2013)."
    Looks like that thing happened by Invader, which resulted in 55.6% Assyrian L23 as mentioned before. I think the L23 came with their armenoid nose or convex nose style. As far as I know, ancient med people didnot have that type of noses, who lived in caucasus area until neolithic.


    And I always think that sintashta chariot also seemed to be just a symbol of elite group, not for transportation or war. Until now, I never heard that there was petrograph of chariots regarding sintashta. However, tons of chariot petroglyphs in Andronovo age were found in altai, tuva, mongolia, east karzakstan, kirgistan, and even Tibet. Looks like in inner asia mountain corridor.

    However, by 2400 BC changes are consistently visible, starting with settlement patterns; the abandonment of the former Kura-Araxes villages and a shift toward less permanent occupations and higher mobility coupled with the construction of monumental funerary tumuli (Edens, 1995). These earthen kurgans—with their preserved wooden-log funerary chambers containing wheeled wagons (Djaparidze, 2003; Makharadze and Murvanidze, 2014; Lyonnet, 2014) and rich funerary inventories composed of skillfully crafted golden and silver artifacts, arsenical copper, and tin-bronze objects (Chernykh, 1992; Carminati, 2014)—are paradigmatic of the radical changes in the region.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Kid, grow up.
    Classic solitude that brings narcissism and egocentrism. I'm probably older than you and you are probably 24-25 but you always thought you were more intelligent than other people, then you condescendently called others kiddos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    That's what I said at the beginning but someone tried to tell me Hittites were J2a and Maykop J1. So Maykop was J2a, G2 L and what about Hittites? Weren't say J2 and G2 too? Still even if they were J1 my argument still stays.

    I explained myself in the posts above. I believe Caucasian languages (at least Kartvelian) is linked to ANF ancestry and therefore G2. The reason for this is simple. Kartvelian shows linguistic structures also found in Basque but lacking in other (ergativity) and Kartvelians are dominated by G2 Haplogroup too.
    There are studies which support that Georgian is neither an ergative, nor a 'split-ergative' language either and that it is 'more accurately analyzed as a language having a split between the nominative and the active alignment according to the case and agreement marking, rather than as ergative or “split-ergative”'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernekar View Post
    So what if i have 34 posts. I try to keep it down on purpose.

    Yes he is a long time amateur, i'm an archaeologist.
    True. And I know exactly what that makes me. But you know what? I also do know archaeologists that don't make such a point about that but basically like amateurs. We share a passion, you know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ernekar View Post
    You know, those guys with the trowels who are writing the papers which the amateurs discuss. What counts more in your eyes?
    In 3-4 years you are going to quote my papers on this forum and you are going to see my name on a lot of these archaeogenetic collaborations.
    By that time you and epoch will still be on eurogenes and AG trying to push forward your disinformation.
    And the name on those papers will be what? Because I'd like to come back to that. And if you turned out to be right, I wholeheartedly will acknowledge that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ernekar View Post
    You don't know what you are talking about. He doesn't know anything. He hasn't read one single book on archaeological theory in his whole life. I can see that in every post he makes.
    You take the AG beef we had here. So be it.

    You see, I'd love to tap into your knowledge exactly for that. What you, however, mentioned is that all archeology is political based on the sociological theory of Social Constructivisme and I tend to consider that just as much bias. For if you feel an obligation to "prove Nazi's wrong" and you think that the origin of PIE is a crucial part therein since all archaeology is political, something that seems to be hinted by you, then you may think you have neutralized political bias, but in effect you actually have introduced political bias.

    A political bias that may blind people to the point that they seem to forget that an Ukrainian Urheimat is proving Nazi's wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ernekar View Post
    All he does is bring forward conspiracy theories which contradict what all the great institutes like Max planck, Copenhagen geogenetics and Harvard Labs. are saying.
    What conspiracy theories, exactly?

    Mind you, I asked a question. You see, as I am an amateur I was curious why I haven't read about the possible big time migrations from Iran, or the Caucasus into the steppe to form Yamnaya before the whole genetics stuff came about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    And the Turkic speaking groups are the best example of why even the most admixed groups still show signs of their ancestors in their DNA. You are making the mistake that you equate Turkic with East Eurasian DNA. But even the most pure Turkic speaking groups are at least 25% West Eurasian. Take in mind the distance between the first Turkic speaking groups and Anatolian Turks. And that the Anatolian Turks are from the Oghuz branch which evolved somewhere around modern day Turkmenistan. So the source for the Anatolian Turks are actually Turkmenistanis and not Kyrgyz. Even if you take Kyrgyz you still get something around 10% Turkic admixture. But if you take Turkmenistanis the admixture rises up to 20-30%.

    "proto Steppe Hittites" completely ignoring their own females and going all out on "local" Hattian wifes is a possibility, but does that sound plausible. Not for me.

    If that's what happened than for real they must have hated their own females or those girls must have been really really not good looking.
    I'm making no such mistakes. The Turks are actually the perfect example for a comparison, because they were also probably a people with two main and very distinct streams of ancestry. To assess the "real" demographic impact of Turks in a population after some of their many migration waves along ~1000 years, you'd have first to consider not Proto-Turks from the Altai, but the specific (and much more admixed) Turkic source where the migrants came from, and you'd have to consider the East Asian ancestry just a "proxy" for the presence of Proto-Turkic descent, but not as the entire percentage of the Turkic impact in the local gene pool. Depending on the Turkic population (for example, whether it is Gagauz, Chuvash, Anatolian Turkish etc.), a ~5% East Asian signal can mean an "effective" Turkic presence of 8%, 10%, 20%, 30%. It varies widely. That's exactly like in the case of Indo-Europeans.

    The logic of what you say about the Turkish people is exactly the same I'm applying, hypothetically, to the Hittite population, with the caveat, of course that the EHG component was already very reduced (~40-50% at most) even in the earliest Proto-Indo-European population in the Pontic-Caspian steppe (Eneolithic Steppe circa 4300 BC), let alone after thousands of years mating with people with little or no EHG.

    Many Turkic people today descend from medieval Turks in significant (not major) percentages, enough to engender a linguistic shift, but the East Asian/Northeast Siberian component in them is negligible. Why? Because they do not descend from people who came straight from Northeast Asia, but from previously assimilated Turkic populations increasingly mixed with West Eurasians. Similarly, it's not just possible, but very probable that, if the Anatolians really left their homeland very early (before 4000 BC), by 1700-1600 BC they would've been completely changed, especially if the migration was male-biased and their destination was (as in fact it was) already very populous.

    Again, it seems to me you still didn't get my point on the maths. We're talking about averages here. If EHG was diluted until it became on average just 1% of the Central Anatolian gene pool, then, well, you may find some people with 10% or 20%, but the vast majority will have virtually 0%. It doesn't matter how many females were Hattian or Anatolian IE, what matters is that, on average, they were probably in the minority especially if the Proto-Anatolian movements were very male-biased as it also happened elsewhere during the BA IE expansions. Of course, people do not mate exclusively outside their own group, but, yes, exogamy was pretty common back then (actually that, according to Mt-DNA distributions, seems the main reason for the high CHG in the steppes, for example), and we have so few samples that we unquestionably have to think of how the "average" person of a given region was, because the probability to find people from the tiny minority is of course very small when you have analyzed the DNA of only 2, 3 or 5 individuals in a place where hundreds of thousands must've lived.
    Last edited by Ygorcs; 23-05-18 at 21:01.

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