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Thread: Ancient genomes from Caucasus inc. Maykop

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    quoting "The Oxford Introduction to Proto-Indo-European and the Proto-Indo-European World"

    The rather limited vocabulary pertaining to metallurgy in Proto-Indo-
    European is listed in Table 15.2.
    The basic word for ‘metal’ in Proto-Indo-European is *haey-es- (e.g. Lat aes
    ‘copper, bronze’, NE ore, Av ayah- ‘metal (probably bronze)’, Skt a´yas- [earlier]
    ‘copper’, [later] ‘iron’) and it is generally presumed to mean ‘copper’ or the
    copper-tin alloy of ‘bronze’ although it has come to mean ‘iron’ in some of the
    Indo-European languages, e.g. Indo-Iranian; however, there is clear evidence
    that it earlier meant ‘copper’ or ‘bronze’. In the Germanic languages it tends to
    mean ‘ore’ and it is possible it simply meant ‘metal’ rather than a speciWc type
    of metal. The second term, *h1roudho´s, is widely enough attested (e.g. ON rauði
    ‘red iron ore’, OCS ruda ‘ore; metal’, NPers ro¯d ‘copper’, Skt loha´ - ‘copper’) but
    it is such a banal derivative of *h1reudh- ‘red’, i.e. the ‘red metal’ or ‘copper’,
    that it probably represents independent developments in diVerent Indo-
    European groups.
    There are two potential words for ‘gold’. The more reliably attested is
    *haeusom  *haweseha- (e.g. Lat aurum, OPrus ausis, Toch B yasa, all ‘gold’),
    a noun ultimately derived from the root *haewes- ‘shine’ which also underlies
    the word for ‘dawn’, *hae´uso¯s (see Section 18.6). It has been plausibly suggested
    that an Indo-European form similar to the one ancestral to Tocharian has been
    widely borrowed into the Uralic languages, e.g. Proto-Balto-Finnic-Lapp-
    Mordvin *was´ke ‘copper, brass’, Proto-Ugric *was´ ‘metal, iron’, Proto-
    Samoyed *wesa¨ ‘metal, iron’. The second word, ?*gˆhel-, is a colour word
    ‘yellow’ which is often used to supply a word for ‘gold’, and although the same root is shared across Germanic-Baltic-Slavic, and Indo-Iranian, the
    diVering ablaut grades and suYxes suggest post-Proto-Indo-European formation
    (e.g. NE gold, Latv ze`lts, Rus zo´loto, Av zaranyam, Skt hı´ran
    _
    yam, all
    ‘gold’). In addition to the ‘red metal’ (copper) and the ‘yellow metal’ (gold)
    we have the ‘white metal’ (silver), *h2ergˆ-n8t-om  *h2regˆ-n8t-om (e.g. OIr argat,
    Lat argentum, Arm arcat‘, Av @[email protected]@m, Skt rajata´m, Toch B n˜kante [with *r
    . . . n assimilated to *n . . . n], all ‘silver’). Formed like our Wrst word for ‘gold’,
    this suggests the use of an adjective (perhaps *h2e´rgˆ-n8t, genitive *h2r 8gˆ-n8t-o´s,
    which was subsequently made thematic) before some noun such as *haey-es-,
    i.e. ‘silver-metal’.
    The North-West region provides evidence of an early Wanderwort in
    *silVbVr- ‘silver’ which occurs in Ibero-Celtic (alone of the Celtic languages)
    s´ilaPur, Germanic (e.g. NE silver), Baltic (e.g. Lith sida˜bras), and Slavic (e.g.
    Rus serebro´) and its doubtful vowels and various outcomes of the consonants
    suggest that it has been borrowed from some non-Indo-European source.
    They say nothing about Anatolian languages, but Yamnayans had copper tools and weapons, so Anatolians were steppe blondish guys 2 meters tall that didn't need any metal to cut trees or kill enemies, just an slap was enough. Now seriously, or Anatolians were roaming deep into the forests, or the Caucasian homeland takes more points... but then departing before knowing metals. Even the few metal names seem related to IE adjectives. Just a mess as usual with this case.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    And now with the Maykop paper they can check how their IE CHG were not colonizing the steppes in the right timeframe for common IE (common words for metals per example......)
    Nice observation. I'd like to know what words for metals and other technology Anatolian IE shares with the rest of the IE family. We already know Maykop was not the source of that CHG, and other Chalcolithic/Bronze Age samples from the region nearby don't look like the source either, so if PIE came from outside the steppes then it was still a Neolithic or at best an Early Copper Age language and couldn't have start to split and colonize other regions before the Bronze Age (or if Anatolian IE doesn't share typical Bronze Age terms with the rest, maybe in the Late Copper Age).

    As for Indic, yes, it's complete nonsense to imagine that it would've been an early arrival in South Asia spread by CHG people, thus assuming a simply impossible situation where Indo-Aryan would've "coincidentally" evolved for many centuries or even milennia in the very same way of other IE dialects very far away from South Asia, in Northeastern Europe/Northwest Asia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Can you link any turkic migrations into Anatolia prior to the roman period.
    I see nothing until either they came with the mongols or circa 11th century AD.................basically as far as I know there was no Turkic people in ancient anatolia
    You're totally misunderstanding my post. That's not what we are discussing here at all. We're comparing the fact the probable demographic and genetic dynamics of the CA/BA Indo-European migrations with the fact that medieval Turkic immigrations happened in multiple waves and with a lot of dilution of their original autosomal makeup to the point that some of the Turkified populations received Turkic immigration, but have very little Northeast Asian/East Asian admixture. The Turkic immigrations didn't involve Proto-Turks, but a lot of Turkic and Turkified "daughter" populations.

    By comparing with historically attested steppe immigrations from relatively recent and literate times, we're trying to address how the immigrations of IE tribes could've impacted the local populations of their new homelands in very different ways and proportions (including a lot of dilution of their original "genetic signal", be it EHG in the case of steppe IEs, or East Asian-related in the case of Turks), especially if we take into account the very high likelihood that they didn't leap from one place to another one far away from their original lands, rather they probably expanded slowly and unsystematically, upon several generations until they finally reached their final destination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Nice observation. I'd like to know what words for metals and other technology Anatolian IE shares with the rest of the IE family. We already know Maykop was not the source of that CHG, and other Chalcolithic/Bronze Age samples from the region nearby don't look like the source either, so if PIE came from outside the steppes then it was still a Neolithic or at best an Early Copper Age language and couldn't have start to split and colonize other regions before the Bronze Age (or if Anatolian IE doesn't share typical Bronze Age terms with the rest, maybe in the Late Copper Age).

    As for Indic, yes, it's complete nonsense to imagine that it would've been an early arrival in South Asia spread by CHG people, thus assuming a simply impossible situation where Indo-Aryan would've "coincidentally" evolved for many centuries or even milennia in the very same way of other IE dialects very far away from South Asia, in Northeastern Europe/Northwest Asia.
    Yesterday i looked for words for metals among IE and it seems that it was spoken in copper age;

    Many are taken from wiktionary including opinions of authors,with some words added from me;

    Proto-Slavic "želězo"(iron) Cognate with Lithuanian geležìs, Latvian dzèlzs and Old Prussian gelso.Has been connected with Ancient Greek χαλκός (khalkós, “ore, copper, bronze”), but the connection cannot be established in terms of regular phonetic correspondences. However, both could be independent loanwords from a common eastern source, whence also possibly Hittite [script needed] ((ḫ)apalki, “iron”).

    Latin "aenus" is the only word in Proto-Indo-European that unequivocally refers to a metal,this word refers to copper (and bronze), and the Proto-Indo-European word refers with absolute certainty to one of these metals, or both. There is no word for iron and the words for gold and silver seem to mean ”that which shines”, or ”the golden” and ”the silvery”, respectively.This shows that the Indo-European language was spoken during a time when copper was used.

    Slavic -"med"(copper),most likely connected with Germanic-"smith"(craftsman) from IE
    *(s)mēy(H)- (“to cut, hew”). Ancient Greek-σμίλη "smī́lē"(tool for cutting,carving),Celtic-mēnis (ore,metal,mine).

    Persian- "mes"(copper) in my opinion is also connected to above.

    Itself the word "metal" come from Greek but seem connected to me.


    I think that Proto-IE started expanding in early copper age (Chalcolithic,Eneolithic)



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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    You even say yourself on Anthrogenica " you dont believe what those people say because they are right winged ". You complain about the negative reputation here, but you just give me a negative response. If you are not a *****, you are definitely mindless.
    That was rather directed to some of the candidates on Anthrogenica. I would never give too much worth on the opinion (or agenda) of a notorious stormfront poster like Generalissimo/Polako/Davidski/Eurogenes (on ABF and AS too, on those forums you can even gaze at his "neutral" (racist) comments up to this day). But also other members there who try to act scientifically are completely biased to their worldview on other forums (worldviews in which you do not accept anything else than your own). I gave you a negative rating only after you gave one on my posts, so why do you even cry (or complain)?

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    Okay, that's enough with the bickering between you guys.

    Let's get back on to the topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    Proto-Slavic "želězo"(iron) Cognate with Lithuanian geležìs, Latvian dzèlzs and Old Prussian gelso.Has been connected with Ancient Greek χαλκός (khalkós, “ore, copper, bronze”), but the connection cannot be established in terms of regular phonetic correspondences. However, both could be independent loanwords from a common eastern source, whence also possibly Hittite [script needed] ((ḫ)apalki, “iron”).
    I have thought about that, the Greek word at least, that it might have something to do with Colchians.

    compare kolkhós, 'a Colchian', khalkos 'copper, copper alloyed with tin, bronze'

    First of all, a parallel exists, the word copper comes from late Latin cuprum, which in turn ultimately from Kúpros, Cyprus

    Then, there is this map > https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...tallurgie.png
    ------------
    Words that derive from *h₂erǵ- which means 'silver' exists in many branches, though. I am not sure how that is interpreted if we assume the languages expanded during the Bronze Age or earlier. That being said the original meaning of the root in PIE should have been related to the meaning white and although cognates seem to have existed in Tocharian and Hittite they don't have anything to do with metals.

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    Honestly, after going through the data again, and reading this thread, it looks to me that we mostly likely have Caucasian speakers in the Caucuses, and Indo-European speakers to the North. Just as the archaeologists have been saying all along.

    Y lines match up, autosomal matches up, we're as certain as we'll ever be that every other IE language came from the steppe. There's only Anatolian, and this one R1b-Z2103 guy that everyone is freaking out about. And that sample still hasn't been hit with a mass spec.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    you forget that the guy is half ANF half CHG...

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    I have thought about that, the Greek word at least, that it might have something to do with Colchians.

    compare kolkhós, 'a Colchian', khalkos 'copper, copper alloyed with tin, bronze'

    First of all, a parallel exists, the word copper comes from late Latin cuprum, which in turn ultimately from Kúpros, Cyprus

    Then, there is this map > https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...tallurgie.png
    ------------
    Words that derive from *h₂erǵ- which means 'silver' exists in many branches, though. I am not sure how that is interpreted if we assume the languages expanded during the Bronze Age or earlier. That being said the original meaning of the root in PIE should have been related to the meaning white and although cognates seem to have existed in Tocharian and Hittite they don't have anything to do with metals.
    That's all good but it seems that words for copper exists in PIE and later bronze,that was the point.The word "copper" however is not shared by IE speakers,Latin is "aenus" for copper and bronze.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    That's all good but it seems that words for copper exists in PIE and later bronze,that was the point.The word "copper" however is not shared by IE speakers,Latin is "aenus" for copper and bronze.
    That related words though, often don't mean 'copper' or 'bronze', therefore the reconstructed meaning should be 'metal'.

    In Greek there is also a word ασήμι ('silver'). Compare Kurdish asin / hesin (“iron”) and Middle Persian asēm, (“silver”).

    They don't include the Greek word in the words which are said that derive from *h₂éyos / *áyos

    But if a relationship really exists, in Greek there are data that point to an original meaning 'raw metal' (literally 'formless')

    There isn't a widely spread word that means 'bronze'. Some expansions were before the Bronze Age, imo but then I don't know how the words that derived from h2erg and mean silver are explained. Words that derive from h2erg and also mean 'silver'* exist in Celtic, Italic (attested in many dialects), Greek and Indo-Iranian. Also in Armenian, but in Armenian at least some say the word is a loan as far as I understand.

    *Though in some languages that is less clear. For example in Sanskrit the word arjuna also meant gold. It also has meanings like 'clear' or 'shape'.
    I think it could be supported that the word originally referred to processed metals in general.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    That related words though, often don't mean 'copper' or 'bronze', therefore the reconstructed meaning should be 'metal'.

    In Greek there is also a word ασήμι ('silver'). Compare Kurdish asin / hesin (“iron”) and Middle Persian asēm, (“silver”).

    They don't include the Greek word in the words which are said that derive from *h₂éyos / *áyos

    But if a relationship really exists, in Greek there are data that point to an original meaning 'raw metal' (literally 'formless')

    There isn't a widely spread word that means 'bronze'. Some expansions were before the Bronze Age, imo but then I don't know how the words that derived from h2erg and mean silver are explained. Words that derive from h2erg and also mean 'silver'* exist in Celtic, Italic (attested in many dialects), Greek and Indo-Iranian. Also in Armenian, but in Armenian at least some say the word is a loan as far as I understand.

    *Though in some languages that is less clear. For example in Sanskrit the word arjuna also meant gold. It also has meanings like 'clear' or 'shape'.
    I think it could be supported that the word originally referred to processed metals in general.
    You can add this also:

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hekur
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    Maybe relevant:

    In Gheg Albanian "me hekë (heq in Tosk)" means "to remove/pull out" but can also be used "to suffer"

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/heq#Albanian

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Maybe relevant:

    In Gheg Albanian "me hekë (heq in Tosk)" means "to remove/pull out" but can also be used "to suffer"

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/heq#Albanian

    The suffix "-ur" in Albanian is past participle similar to the "-ed" as in "finished" in English.

    So "hekur" which means Metal/Iron in Albanian is directly related to "hekë" which means "remove" but also is
    very specifically connected to "pulling out."

    Hekur = "Pulled out"
    Hekuri = "The Pulled out"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    (I'm separating my post in two parts, the second is more speculative)

    Yes. If the word is related, along with the Germanic ones, where we have reconstructed words thought to have meant 'type of metal', also 'genuine, pure' and evidence from Sanskrit, where as I said, apart from 'silver' meanings like 'gold', 'clear' or 'shape' etc are attested and Celtic where also the meaning 'money' is attested etc

    We can say that the original meaning of the root wasn't 'silver' and likely not exactly 'white' either. Concerning the words which are said that derive from *h2erg and came to be associated with metals at least, I personally consider an original meaning 'processed metal' likely.

    Also linguists reconstruct roots like *reyǵ-(stretch tight, bind) and *h₃reǵ-(straighten), from the second we have words that acquired meanings like Sanskrit ṛjú, (just, right), or 'law'/'order' in Celtic dialects.
    Latin rigo, which has meanings like 'lead, convey' etc but also 'irrigate, wet, moisten etc' is thought to have descended from one of those roots.

    >>>

    One blogger in Greece has supported that Greek word Argos descended from a root *Hreǵ- / *h2reǵ-, and that it was associated with irrigated plains.
    Albanian has a word rjedh, associated with a Proto-Indo-European *Hreǵ- ('flow') by some and have compared it to Celtic hydronyms like Rodanos.

    The meaning 'flow' could have had theoretically something to do with the process of smelting. I think it is evident but some similarities can be coincidental.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    Yesterday i looked for words for metals among IE and it seems that it was spoken in copper age;

    Many are taken from wiktionary including opinions of authors,with some words added from me;

    Proto-Slavic "želězo"(iron) Cognate with Lithuanian geležìs, Latvian dzèlzs and Old Prussian gelso.Has been connected with Ancient Greek χαλκός (khalkós, “ore, copper, bronze”), but the connection cannot be established in terms of regular phonetic correspondences. However, both could be independent loanwords from a common eastern source, whence also possibly Hittite [script needed] ((ḫ)apalki, “iron”).

    Latin "aenus" is the only word in Proto-Indo-European that unequivocally refers to a metal,this word refers to copper (and bronze), and the Proto-Indo-European word refers with absolute certainty to one of these metals, or both. There is no word for iron and the words for gold and silver seem to mean ”that which shines”, or ”the golden” and ”the silvery”, respectively.This shows that the Indo-European language was spoken during a time when copper was used.

    Slavic -"med"(copper),most likely connected with Germanic-"smith"(craftsman) from IE
    *(s)mēy(H)- (“to cut, hew”). Ancient Greek-σμίλη "smī́lē"(tool for cutting,carving),Celtic-mēnis (ore,metal,mine).

    Persian- "mes"(copper) in my opinion is also connected to above.

    Itself the word "metal" come from Greek but seem connected to me.


    I think that Proto-IE started expanding in early copper age (Chalcolithic,Eneolithic)


    Very interesting. It seems to confirm my observations with these latest studies, about the development of PIE (including its seemingly steppe-derived daughter branches) being very early, not an Early Bronze Age thing, and probably involving an early expansion from one common homeland already from somewhere in or near the Pontic-Caspian region (if not in the steppes per se, at least in the North Caucasus or maybe the Azerbaijani coastal steppe strip), as well as a much later expansion of Late PIE dialects already from the huge expanse of the steppes (maybe propelled by the spread of the Yamnaya horizon). Otherwise, I think we should expect a much more differentiated IE family (if it had divided into different languages even earlier, when CHG did not even exist in high proportions in the Pontic-Caspian steppe), or a much less differentiated IE family, if it had started to split into different dialects only after the Yamnaya people started to disperse.

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    Wasn't the Ezero culture steppe-free genetically? So even if they (the Hittites) came from Europe they had no steppe since the beginning...but i doubt that they came from the Balkans because if i'm not wrong - i didnt read the study -they are Near eastern genetically with no WHG (?)

    P.S. Ezero culture was one of the possibilities mentioned by scholars about their origin, the other one was that they came from the Caucasus....

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    Last edited by Cato; 24-05-18 at 23:56.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernekar View Post
    Stop cherry picking from my posts. You only answer the parts you like, and elegantly leave the rest out.
    I remember why i told you on AG i wouldn't reply you anymore. You seriously lack the theoretical knowledge to be able to discuss something that happened that long ago.

    The last answer you will ever get from me in any forum:
    A retreat. Fine with me. Mind you, you don't seem very keen on sharing archaeological knowledge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ernekar View Post
    Apart from half of their genetics, the whole culture, the animals, the way of living, the wheels, the metals and the tools of the steppe people descend from the populations south of the caucasus.
    The first copper in Khvalynsk was found to be from the Balkans. Sheep bones in the steppe were found in herder cultures related to Cucuteni-Tripoli. The first kurgans were found in the Balkans. The oldest drawing of a wheeled vehicle is from TBR Poland. There is EEF in Yamnaya. So why didn't they leave any trace in late PIE?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ernekar View Post
    Before the advent of the southerners, they were nothing but hunter gatherers.
    Off course they copied everything. We see that kind of adaptation with WHG remnants such as Ertebolla wrt pig herding as well. Or Swifterband.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ernekar View Post
    I simply have a hard time seeing why the southerners should have a hard time imposing their language upon a couple of small bands of primitive hunters.
    You should have a hard time seeing female mediated language transmission to a patriarchal society.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    Wasn't the Ezero culture steppe-free genetically? So even if they (the Hittites) came from Europe they had no steppe since the beginning...but i doubt that they came from the Balkans because if i'm not wrong - i didnt read the study -they are Near eastern genetically with no WHG (?)

    P.S. Ezero culture was one of the possibilities mentioned by scholars about their origin, the other one was that they came from the Caucasus....

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    From Mathieson:

    Bronze Age (~3400-1100 BCE) individuals do have steppe-related ancestry (we estimate 30%; CI: 26-35%), with the highest proportions in the four latest Balkan Bronze Age individuals in our data (later than ~1700 BCE) and the least in earlier Bronze Age individuals (3400-2500 BCE;Figure 1D).
    From the supplementary tables (XL sheet) one of the early Bronze Age samples is, Bul10, is assigned to the Ezero culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    From Mathieson:



    From the supplementary tables (XL sheet) one of the early Bronze Age samples is, Bul10, is assigned to the Ezero culture.
    Ok, so they had some Steppe admixture, thanks..(unless it was the steppe-like admixture that Varna already had)

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5b/ec...c310ac54fc.png

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    Last edited by Cato; 25-05-18 at 18:56.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    Ok, so they had some Steppe admixture, thanks..(unless it was the steppe-like admixture that Varna already had)

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5b/ec...c310ac54fc.png

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    The Varna culture was succeeded by the copper age Kurgan builders of the Suvorovo culture, which occupied the same area. These people build Kurgans with zoomorphic scepters or maces as burial gifts, which Sredny Stog and Khvalynsk also had. David Anthony considers them horse heads, other think more various animals. Suvorovo is widely considered an offshoot of Sredny Stog. Mathieson did not sample Suvorovo, but the two copper age samples that show steppe admixture are from the copper age culture immediately preceding Suvorovo (Varna) and from a copper age cultures not very far from Suvorovo territory (Smyadovo).

    I think they are Suvorovo samples.

    David Anthony's theory of Anatolian was an early offshoot from the Steppe, from one of the precursors of Yamnaya: Sredny Stog. From Suvorovo then came early Bronze Age Ezero. This migrated to Turkish Thrace and migrated to Anatolia. I haven't heard from anyone that the data seem to confirm this theory. But it looks to me like it does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    The Varna culture was succeeded by the copper age Kurgan builders of the Suvorovo culture, which occupied the same area. These people build Kurgans with zoomorphic scepters or maces as burial gifts, which Sredny Stog and Khvalynsk also had. David Anthony considers them horse heads, other think more various animals. Suvorovo is widely considered an offshoot of Sredny Stog. Mathieson did not sample Suvorovo, but the two copper age samples that show steppe admixture are from the copper age culture immediately preceding Suvorovo (Varna) and from a copper age cultures not very far from Suvorovo territory (Smyadovo).

    I think they are Suvorovo samples.

    David Anthony's theory of Anatolian was an early offshoot from the Steppe, from one of the precursors of Yamnaya: Sredny Stog. From Suvorove came early Bronze Age Ezero. This migrated to Turkish Thrace and migrated to Anatolia. I haven't heard from anyone that the data seem to confirm this theory. But it looks to me like it does.
    I'd be very interested to see papers documenting the archaeological trail from Ezero, or Suvorovo, for that matter, to Anatolia.


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  23. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'd be very interested to see papers documenting the archaeological trail from Ezero, or Suvorovo, for that matter, to Anatolia.
    As I said, it's David Anthony's theory. I got it from books, he must have written more about it.

    EDIT: So yeah, it might be interesting if someone started digging into the papers. But where to start?

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    Some info about the Ezero culture from Europe in the Neolithic by A.Whittle

    Attachment 1020520180525_224308.jpg20180525_224319.jpg

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    Btw, there's a lot of talk about the Maykop but don't forget that Reich put the PIE homeland in his book to present day Iran or Armenia.

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