Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 21 of 25 FirstFirst ... 111920212223 ... LastLast
Results 501 to 525 of 604

Thread: Ancient genomes from Caucasus inc. Maykop

  1. #501
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,424
    Points
    6,763
    Level
    24
    Points: 6,763, Level: 24
    Level completed: 43%, Points required for next Level: 287
    Overall activity: 21.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    4 members found this post helpful.
    Paper's out!

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-08220-8.pdf

    Supplementary material: https://static-content.springer.com/...MOESM1_ESM.pdf

    On the authors rectifying their misunderstood position:
    " There is indeed very limited gene flow between the Caucasus and the steppe groups (apart from the examples highlighted). However, wehave based our PIE-related speculations on the observation that the CHG/Iranian (green) ancestrycomponent is increasing already during the Eneolithic north of the Caucasus. This led us to proposethat this might be the actual ‘tracer dye’ of an early PIE spread, which could then also accommodatethe spread of PIE south of the mountain range where this ancestry component also rises in frequencyresulting in a relatively homogenised dual ancestry (Anatolian + Iranian farming-related ancestry) inChalcolithic times (see also brown arrow in Figure 2). "

    Taking from Ryukendo and Pribislav on Anthrogenica.

  2. #502
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,085
    Points
    9,648
    Level
    29
    Points: 9,648, Level: 29
    Level completed: 50%, Points required for next Level: 302
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    so R1b-Z2103 came from south Caucasus or from Balkans?

    we are sure that the dates for steppe Yamna are older than those in Pannonia and lower Danube?
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

  3. #503
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger First Class1 year registered50000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Master Tagger
    Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    3,358
    Points
    144,737
    Level
    100
    Points: 144,737, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.3%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States


  4. #504
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    539
    Points
    6,789
    Level
    24
    Points: 6,789, Level: 24
    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 261
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Canada



    Another one:
    Reviewer no 2: On lines 410 and 432 the authors preferred to see the Anatolian Farmer genes that appeared in Yamnaya as flowing from southeastern Europe, with a 20% WHG component, not from Maikop, without the WHG component.
    Gimbutas is absolutely correct now that she said yamna culture originated in southeast and East on the 10 page papers around 1950 as I remember. The southeast has something to do with corded ware, but she didnot mention about the East, but a hint. As I quoted weeks ago, yamana culture is not special one, but just “sunhead and animal culture.” Their mound culture is not special also, where they were buried with legs flexed as same as shaman was dancing on the petroglyphs in lake baikal, altai, america.

    Moreover, they penetrated M73, wild horse butcher of botai, to go to altai according to anthony Map. Anthony found botai horse domestication culture in afanasievo, but no wagon. Their altai is so different from the starting point, and furthemore they simply lived with Q people; looks like home-coming. Their descendant, sintashta did again, making a developing society but trying not to go south of civilized world even with chariot.
    However, modern scientists tried to seperate those people by east and west. If so, I think ancient steppe people would have a democratic society.

    Afanasievo kurgan

    http://johnhawks.net/weblog/hawks/tr...gans-2012.html

    So smart Anthony tried to say that the afanasievo were from Repin, which is not the East. The East would be a place where M73 with horse, CHG and Q1a with the oldest wagon and EDAR gathered around before bronze age: south east Ural, sintashta zone.

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...319#post565319

  5. #505
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    16,465
    Points
    354,688
    Level
    100
    Points: 354,688, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    I don't see much difference from the pre-print. Either there is a very ancient cline from EHG in the north to CHG in the south or, if there was a specific folk migration more recently than that, it had to take place before the date of these samples, i.e. Neolithic times. It certainly can't be traced to Maykop.

    All the reams of commentary boil down to that, yes?

    Unless they find a migration during that Neolithic period it's bad news for hypotheses about a migration of pre-or proto-PIE from the Caucasus onto the steppe.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  6. #506
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    491
    Points
    1,935
    Level
    12
    Points: 1,935, Level: 12
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 215
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Portugal



    1 members found this post helpful.
    I love the NEW reviewers comments supplement ….


    "Lines 442 and 606-608 : The abstract for this paper highlights this finding as one of the principal
    discoveries of the project. The Yamnaya population of the Pontic-Caspian steppes, whose Bronze
    Age migrations east into Asia and west into Europe laid the foundation for modern populations, is
    here described as having previously undetected Early European Farmer and Western Hunter
    Gatherer ancestry. Neither component had been recognized in the same samples when previously
    published. This is indeed a discovery, and I do not (cannot) debate the finding. I only want to note
    that this is both a discovery and a revision of results previously published in Nature by Haak et al
    2015 Allentoft et al 2015 and Mathiesson et al. 2018. I think that the reader should be alerted more
    clearly to the potential for debate on this topic. I recognize that methods are moving quickly in this..."



    For a Guy that is saying for years that the Yamnaya were an offshoot of Shulaveri that in turn came from the Balkans (WHG) and admix with some Anatolian in Thrace and Fikirtepe region (EEF) and later brought CHG into steppe …. This all sound real sweet. Pure honey.
    From Shulaveri Shomu to Bell Beakers
    (https://shulaveri2bellbeaker.blogs.sapo.pt/)

  7. #507
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    491
    Points
    1,935
    Level
    12
    Points: 1,935, Level: 12
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 215
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Portugal



    Those reviewers were delicious...

    "Figure 2: On the right side, the color bar graphs for Yamnaya Samara and Yamnaya Kalmyk do not
    show any orange color for Anatolian (or Early European) Farmer ancestry. The discovery of
    Anatolian/Early European Farmer ancestry in these samples is one of the major findings of the study
    but is not represented graphically in Figure 2, where these samples are represented graphically as
    they were described previously, as a simple admixture of EHG and CHG/Iran. I realize that these
    samples are in a column labeled Previously Published, but this is the only graphical representation of
    these sample...."

    Lindo, Lindo, lindo.

  8. #508
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    491
    Points
    1,935
    Level
    12
    Points: 1,935, Level: 12
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 215
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Portugal



    reviewer 2 is brutal...

    " It’s good to point out that older Neolithic sites could be found in the northern flanks, but what you’re implying here is that Gorelik was wrong to specify a PPNB influence on the steppes (fine, I agree) and it really was an extension of the Georgian Shulaveri-Shomutepe culture going over the mountains (sites not yet found) that introduced domesticates to the steppes. Gorelik already dismissed that because of the absence of artifact parallels in the Azov steppes with Shulaveri-Shomutepe. Too complex to explain, too many speculative elements." ------ These guys are, bit by bit, introducing the Shulaverian hypothesis into the narrative... Its the "we knew all along" factor that is coming.


    One note of explanation to the dumbass reviewer (sharp guy but not that knowledgeable).
    the Shulaverian moving into steppe by end 6th millenium BC were the same stock that we see roaming, pastoral, in the western georgia plain. in fact Same life style that was in 2018 published by Andrea ricci regarding the shulaveri in Nagorno-Karabakh region and Azerbaijan steppes. Very light and almost transhumance...

  9. #509
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran50000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,510
    Points
    52,546
    Level
    70
    Points: 52,546, Level: 70
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 4
    Overall activity: 49.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    so the R1b-Z2103 in 2.9 ka Armenia was probably a recent arrival, after 3.5 ka
    where did they come from? late north caucasus?

  10. #510
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    491
    Points
    1,935
    Level
    12
    Points: 1,935, Level: 12
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 215
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Portugal



    ....
    one of replies from the authors to reviewers...

    Reply: This statement is based on the hypothesis put forward by Mathieson et al. 2018: “An alternative hypothesis is that the homeland of Proto-Indo-European languages was in the Caucasus or in Iran. In this scenario, westward population movement contributed to the dispersal of Anatolian languages, and northward movement and mixture with EHG was responsible for the formation of a ‘Late Proto-Indo European’-speaking population associated with the Yamnaya complex. Although this scenario gains plausibility from our results, it remains possible that Indo-European languages were spread through southeastern Europe into Anatolia without large-scale population movement or admixture.”

    See, what I always said about the "knew all along" phenomenon?-- Now its an hypothesis from Mathieson in 2018. The same Mathieson that used to comment on Eurogenes where I was defending my Shulaverian Hypothesis in endless comments since early 2016 has put forward is brilliant hypothesis in 2018!!! - Love it, I love it. :)

  11. #511
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    ....
    one of replies from the authors to reviewers...

    Reply: This statement is based on the hypothesis put forward by Mathieson et al. 2018: “An alternative hypothesis is that the homeland of Proto-Indo-European languages was in the Caucasus or in Iran. In this scenario, westward population movement contributed to the dispersal of Anatolian languages, and northward movement and mixture with EHG was responsible for the formation of a ‘Late Proto-Indo European’-speaking population associated with the Yamnaya complex. Although this scenario gains plausibility from our results, it remains possible that Indo-European languages were spread through southeastern Europe into Anatolia without large-scale population movement or admixture.”

    See, what I always said about the "knew all along" phenomenon?-- Now its an hypothesis from Mathieson in 2018. The same Mathieson that used to comment on Eurogenes where I was defending my Shulaverian Hypothesis in endless comments since early 2016 has put forward is brilliant hypothesis in 2018!!! - Love it, I love it. :)
    What I don't get is that, from the data shown so far, this would mean a spread of PIE with typical Caucasian females. That just cannot be true.

    The question is, where did M269 come from? It seems to have introduced itself between Khvalynsk and Yamnaya (from somewhere else, where it would have been for much longer), but we don't have M269 in ChL Caucasus.

  12. #512
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    491
    Points
    1,935
    Level
    12
    Points: 1,935, Level: 12
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 215
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Portugal



    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    What I don't get is that, from the data shown so far, this would mean a spread of PIE with typical Caucasian females. That just cannot be true.

    The question is, where did M269 come from? It seems to have introduced itself between Khvalynsk and Yamnaya (from somewhere else, where it would have been for much longer), but we don't have M269 in ChL Caucasus.
    What you don't have is: Caucasus NEOLITHIC - do think that is a coincidence?
    The place where Shulaveri lived was a wastland for a couple centuries before you see Sioni arriving. Let alone a thousand years later the Kura-Araxes. What is the problem people have with time?

  13. #513
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran50000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,510
    Points
    52,546
    Level
    70
    Points: 52,546, Level: 70
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 4
    Overall activity: 49.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    What I don't get is that, from the data shown so far, this would mean a spread of PIE with typical Caucasian females. That just cannot be true.

    The question is, where did M269 come from? It seems to have introduced itself between Khvalynsk and Yamnaya (from somewhere else, where it would have been for much longer), but we don't have M269 in ChL Caucasus.
    this exchange of females must have happened around 7 ka, early khvalynsk

  14. #514
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    491
    Points
    1,935
    Level
    12
    Points: 1,935, Level: 12
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 215
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Portugal



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    this exchange of females must have happened around 7 ka, early khvalynsk
    Yes. We are back to hordes of amazon women roaming into new lands and having babies with local men. Specially these in particular that manage to cross alone one of the most dificult mountain ranges to cross. And all by themselves. Remarkable. ;)

  15. #515
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    this exchange of females must have happened around 7 ka, early khvalynsk
    The paternalistic culture of PIE didn't come from women, I refuse to accept that. But besides, there was an extra addition of CHG to Khvalynsk that also seems to have brought M269.

  16. #516
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    What you don't have is: Caucasus NEOLITHIC - do think that is a coincidence?
    The place where Shulaveri lived was a wastland for a couple centuries before you see Sioni arriving. Let alone a thousand years later the Kura-Araxes. What is the problem people have with time?
    Do we have samples from the Western Caspian (i.e. Azerbaijan)? If we have samples spanning the entire Caucasus with no M269, and knowing the Steppe groups to the immediate North had no M269, where the hell does that leave M269?

  17. #517
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran50000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,510
    Points
    52,546
    Level
    70
    Points: 52,546, Level: 70
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 4
    Overall activity: 49.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Yes. We are back to hordes of amazon women roaming into new lands and having babies with local men. Specially these in particular that manage to cross alone one of the most dificult mountain ranges to cross. And all by themselves. Remarkable. ;)
    beside your Amazonian women phantasies, explain to me how EHG got admixed with CHG
    mtDNA for both the steppe and Caucasus cluster are the same, and different from previous (>7ka) EHG samples
    Y-DNA between steppe and Caucasus cluster is different, with steppe cluster typical EHG Y-DNA

    the authors themselves say the Caucasus Mountains didn't form a boundary

  18. #518
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    13-05-18
    Posts
    160
    Points
    4,744
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,744, Level: 20
    Level completed: 24%, Points required for next Level: 306
    Overall activity: 13.0%


    Country: United States



    I'll point out that the Y-DNA in Tel Shadud's sample is there. It's an R1b.

  19. #519
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    491
    Points
    1,935
    Level
    12
    Points: 1,935, Level: 12
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 215
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Portugal



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    beside your Amazonian women phantasies, explain to me how EHG got admixed with CHG
    mtDNA for both the steppe and Caucasus cluster are the same, and different from previous (>7ka) EHG samples
    Y-DNA between steppe and Caucasus cluster is different, with steppe cluster typical EHG Y-DNA

    the authors themselves say the Caucasus Mountains didn't form a boundary
    I get confused, worried, and ? - Read the replies from authors to reviewers!

    How they got admixed?

    • at least as early as by 5500BC some shulaverian were starting to pour into north Caucasus (that is the exchange with reviewer 2).
    • There might be or not be already a CHG population that had least or not Iran/CHG in Western Georgia or even north Caucasus that Shulaveri were interacting with by mid 6th M BC..
    • Shulaverian upon 6.9K mystery and magical disappearance event moved to kuban river and started to move into steppe, even to make early Meshoko. God knows where some of them were at that point…


    Now. Break. Stop. Pause, sleep, Idle...
    A century goes by, tic.tac, two centuries, tic tac, three centuries…. Maybe more. Wake up!!!


    • Now, the Wang at all starts (!). Most of what they are reporting is 1000 years later. Even Mesohko, it is known that the population that made the first settlements were shortly after substitute by another population.


    In this playful way, not intent to piss you off, I am repeating what I have been saying. Reich, Haak , Krauser, Mathieson, etc… they have the samples for the first part and there is an “embargo” for them.
    First they need to clean the slate because not long ago they were the ones pushing the Steppe as the Urheimat of this universe and the next. So they need time. Now it’s the brilliant Iain Mathieson having this new hypothesis in 2018. Leave it a couple more months and they all will be the embattle resistants that are pushing for a south Caucasus theory and being harassed by everyone….

    That is how its done.

  20. #520
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Alyan View Post
    I'll point out that the Y-DNA in Tel Shadud's sample is there. It's an R1b.
    I know, I was actually the first to point that out, but it's too late to draw meaningful conclusions.

  21. #521
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    491
    Points
    1,935
    Level
    12
    Points: 1,935, Level: 12
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 215
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Portugal



    Quote Originally Posted by Alyan View Post
    I'll point out that the Y-DNA in Tel Shadud's sample is there. It's an R1b.
    No subclades known?

    What I am saying next is just a coincidence, ok? Not intented to mean nothing....
    But that place is 13 miles from Tel Tsaf. And tel tsaf is important in the shulaverian hypothesis... slide 4600BC. (https://shulaverianhypothesis.blogs.sapo.pt/)

  22. #522
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-08-18
    Posts
    842
    Points
    10,677
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,677, Level: 31
    Level completed: 19%, Points required for next Level: 573
    Overall activity: 76.0%


    Country: Germany



    Why would Shomu be a much better fit for Yamnaya than Kura Araxes etc. ? It doesn't make sense.

    Note that the southern ancestry is inferred to have split off prior to the formation of CHG. Here's betting that steppe North Caucasians don't have any ancestry from the Transcaucasus region.

  23. #523
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    12-03-18
    Posts
    130
    Points
    2,580
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,580, Level: 14
    Level completed: 44%, Points required for next Level: 170
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: United States



    If PIE was an ANE language it would have been agglutinative. All the languages of North Eurasia are agglutinative. PIE was born somewhere very close / around of Caucasus.

  24. #524
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,424
    Points
    6,763
    Level
    24
    Points: 6,763, Level: 24
    Level completed: 43%, Points required for next Level: 287
    Overall activity: 21.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    If R1b came from Armenia with women in the Neolithic ( a big scale migration ). How is EHG component dominant in the Steppe? The few U5a and U4 cannot explain that almost perfect 50/50 EHG/CHG in Steppe. Also Dolmen BA doesn't have any Iran_Neo or Iran_Chl, only CHG and Anatolia_Chl, wich means Iran ancestry wasn't that predominant in the Caucasus before the Chalcolithic.

  25. #525
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,424
    Points
    6,763
    Level
    24
    Points: 6,763, Level: 24
    Level completed: 43%, Points required for next Level: 287
    Overall activity: 21.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    No subclades known?

    What I am saying next is just a coincidence, ok? Not intented to mean nothing....
    But that place is 13 miles from Tel Tsaf. And tel tsaf is important in the shulaverian hypothesis... slide 4600BC. (https://shulaverianhypothesis.blogs.sapo.pt/)
    The call might be wrong, i also saw on Anthrogenica that they have an R1b sample from Tanzania, wich is odd.

Page 21 of 25 FirstFirst ... 111920212223 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •