Ancient genomes from Caucasus inc. Maykop

@halfalp... so, do you agree that IE was born in Anatolia? you know, the first IE language was recorded / written down there (irony, of course)
 
Also interesting enough that both the R1b from Kura-Araxes and the one from Hajji Firuz seems to not shows any EHG, while they were found with non-R1b individuals clearly showing Steppe ancestry, what can we conclude of this? That neighboring ancestry should tell us on the origin of those individuals?

I don't know for sure, but I think V1636 looks like a wayward branch that doesn't tell us much about the relevant clades of R1b. It's M269 that should interest us, and judging by the ancient samples published thus far I'd think it diversified somewhere in Ukraine or vicinity. Perhaps it expanded out of some as yet unsampled pocket in the Caparthian range or something, which might be why we can't make sense of its trajectory just yet.
 
@halfalp... so, do you agree that IE was born in Anatolia? you know, the first IE language was recorded / written down there (irony, of course)
I’m not sure to get your irony here. So Semitic languages came from Mesopotamia because first written / recorded there? ( I’m stopping you right now, Old Egyptian is not Semitic ).
 
I don't know for sure, but I think V1636 looks like a wayward branch that doesn't tell us much about the relevant clades of R1b. It's M269 that should interest us, and judging by the ancient samples published thus far I'd think it diversified somewhere in Ukraine or vicinity. Perhaps it expanded out of some as yet unsampled pocket in the Caparthian range or something, which might be why we can't make sense of its trajectory just yet.
I know, you alteady express your view over V1636. But if, this lineage turns out to be important for the Anatolian Languages family question? Did it gonna become relevent?
 
I know, you alteady express your view over V1636. But if, this lineage turns out to be important for the Anatolian Languages family question? Did it gonna become relevent?

I don't think it's relevant to be honest. It's an almost dead branch as far as I can tell, and the lack of evidence for autosomal admixture between Steppe/Kura Araxes leads me to believe that the connection is too old to be relevant for IE origins. Perhaps it goes back to some Mesolithic WHG type hunter gatherer, not sure.
 
I don't think it's relevant to be honest. It's an almost dead branch as far as I can tell, and the lack of evidence for autosomal admixture between Steppe/Kura Araxes leads me to believe that the connection is too old to be relevant for IE origins. Perhaps it goes back to some Mesolithic WHG type hunter gatherer, not sure.
But there is clear link between Steppe and KA. Such as mtdna U4a and U4d in KA. Also this potential V1636 individual. I think lineages are more relevent than admixture. Because we might never found the good proxy, the first generation sample showing 50% EHG 50% CHG in Armenia. Keep in mind that Armenia_Chl wich is y-dna L1a and non-Steppe mtdna lineages, arbor some EHG ancestry. Wich tell us that R1b and U4 were there somewhere.
 
But there is clear link between Steppe and KA. Such as mtdna U4a and U4d in KA. Also this potential V1636 individual. I think lineages are more relevent than admixture. Because we might never found the good proxy, the first generation sample showing 50% EHG 50% CHG in Armenia. Keep in mind that Armenia_Chl wich is y-dna L1a and non-Steppe mtdna lineages, arbor some EHG ancestry. Wich tell us that R1b and U4 were there somewhere.

The problem is the narrow timeframe of IE. I personally don't believe that autosomal DNA would completely mix itself out of existence in between the Chalcolithic and the Bronze Age as migrating groups probably wouldn't outmarry to such an extent. The same problem exists for a south->steppe migration, albeit to a lesser extent because there are autosomal components that might be construed as being of southern origin.

For now I believe that the Caucasus was a genetic and linguistic barrier until much later. If Anatolian came from Europe it did so via the Balkans.
 
The problem is the narrow timeframe of IE. I personally don't believe that autosomal DNA would completely mix itself out of existence in between the Chalcolithic and the Bronze Age as migrating groups probably wouldn't outmarry to such an extent. The same problem exists for a south->steppe migration, albeit to a lesser extent because there are autosomal components that might be construed as being of southern origin.

For now I believe that the Caucasus was a genetic and linguistic barrier until much later. If Anatolian came from Europe it did so via the Balkans.
You are not facilitate anything for Anatolian Languages! But to be fair, for years and still today actually, i was convinced from multiples deductions that Anatolian Languages came ultimately from the Catacomb Culture.
 
nope, you didn't catch the irony, it was just about the first R1b clade dates.
 
nope, you didn't catch the irony, it was just about the first R1b clade dates.

I think i clearly catched it. But your Low IQ and your ETA philosophy is hiding everything.
 
You have to find steppe in Anatolia before 2500 BC because there are Anatolian names from North Syria 2500 BC. Otherwise David Reich is right.
 
halfalp, take a pill
 
I just don't care, better to send the case to a psychologist.
 
Paper's out!

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-08220-8.pdf

Supplementary material: https://static-content.springer.com...8/MediaObjects/41467_2018_8220_MOESM1_ESM.pdf

On the authors rectifying their misunderstood position:
" There is indeed very limited gene flow between the Caucasus and the steppe groups (apart from the examples highlighted). However, wehave based our PIE-related speculations on the observation that the CHG/Iranian (green) ancestrycomponent is increasing already during the Eneolithic north of the Caucasus. This led us to proposethat this might be the actual ‘tracer dye’ of an early PIE spread, which could then also accommodatethe spread of PIE south of the mountain range where this ancestry component also rises in frequencyresulting in a relatively homogenised dual ancestry (Anatolian + Iranian farming-related ancestry) inChalcolithic times (see also brown arrow in Figure 2). "

Taking from Ryukendo and Pribislav on Anthrogenica.
 
so R1b-Z2103 came from south Caucasus or from Balkans?

we are sure that the dates for steppe Yamna are older than those in Pannonia and lower Danube?
 
Another one:
Reviewer no 2: On lines 410 and 432 the authors preferred to see the Anatolian Farmer genes that appeared in Yamnaya as flowing from southeastern Europe, with a 20% WHG component, not from Maikop, without the WHG component.

Gimbutas is absolutely correct now that she said yamna culture originated in southeast and East on the 10 page papers around 1950 as I remember. The southeast has something to do with corded ware, but she didnot mention about the East, but a hint. As I quoted weeks ago, yamana culture is not special one, but just “sunhead and animal culture.” Their mound culture is not special also, where they were buried with legs flexed as same as shaman was dancing on the petroglyphs in lake baikal, altai, america.

Moreover, they penetrated M73, wild horse butcher of botai, to go to altai according to anthony Map. Anthony found botai horse domestication culture in afanasievo, but no wagon. Their altai is so different from the starting point, and furthemore they simply lived with Q people; looks like home-coming. Their descendant, sintashta did again, making a developing society but trying not to go south of civilized world even with chariot.
However, modern scientists tried to seperate those people by east and west. If so, I think ancient steppe people would have a democratic society.

Afanasievo kurgan
afanasievo-kurgan.jpg

http://johnhawks.net/weblog/hawks/travel/anthropologist-and-the-kurgans-2012.html

So smart Anthony tried to say that the afanasievo were from Repin, which is not the East. The East would be a place where M73 with horse, CHG and Q1a with the oldest wagon and EDAR gathered around before bronze age: south east Ural, sintashta zone.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...-best-fit-analysis/page13?p=565319#post565319
 
I don't see much difference from the pre-print. Either there is a very ancient cline from EHG in the north to CHG in the south or, if there was a specific folk migration more recently than that, it had to take place before the date of these samples, i.e. Neolithic times. It certainly can't be traced to Maykop.

All the reams of commentary boil down to that, yes?

Unless they find a migration during that Neolithic period it's bad news for hypotheses about a migration of pre-or proto-PIE from the Caucasus onto the steppe.
 
I love the NEW reviewers comments supplement ….


"Lines 442 and 606-608 : The abstract for this paper highlights this finding as one of the principal
discoveries of the project. The Yamnaya population of the Pontic-Caspian steppes, whose Bronze
Age migrations east into Asia and west into Europe laid the foundation for modern populations, is
here described as having previously undetected Early European Farmer and Western Hunter
Gatherer ancestry. Neither component had been recognized in the same samples when previously
published. This is indeed a discovery, and I do not (cannot) debate the finding. I only want to note
that this is both a discovery and a revision of results previously published in Nature by Haak et al
2015 Allentoft et al 2015 and Mathiesson et al. 2018. I think that the reader should be alerted more
clearly to the potential for debate on this topic. I recognize that methods are moving quickly in this..."



For a Guy that is saying for years that the Yamnaya were an offshoot of Shulaveri that in turn came from the Balkans (WHG) and admix with some Anatolian in Thrace and Fikirtepe region (EEF) and later brought CHG into steppe …. This all sound real sweet. Pure honey.
 

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