Ancient genomes from Caucasus inc. Maykop

Though I understand the possibility (and even likelihood) of an ultimate South Caucasian homeland for the earliest form of PIE, I somehow find it difficult to understand that, in the ancient world, the steppe populations would've been linguistically assimilated by a South Caucasian population even before the Bronze Age (that's if Repin/Yamnaya is already a sign of that acculturation) without any significant or even minor male dominance. Centralized states with an official language can be ruled out for that region as early as that period, and there was certainly no permanent long-distance contact, otherwise we'd expect the 2 regions to have become much more similar in their Y-DNA and Mt-DNA makeup. Would this Indo-Europeanization have happened without any appreciable migration and mostly via maternal lines? I try to accept this scenario, but the details of how that linguistic shift could've happened do not seem to be clearly explained (or even understood as of now).

Maybe more advanced civilization with much more population in the south forced the steppe population to assimilate into them? Steppe population need to know the language to communicate, trade, work etc. with them.
 
Well apparently we dont read the studies the same way, their only assumptions of a south caucasus homeland is the absence of EHG wich can be debunked many ways. I mean i'm the complete genetic amateur here, but i feel some of you and even them forget many genetic rules, like change of autosomal dna etc for the particular IE hypothesis. Anatolian languages have believed to came from Balkans and not Caucasus so that.
 
Looking at the supplements, I see that Maykop had R1b-M269 (L23?), just as I had predicted since 2009. The surprise is that it has an awful lot of haplogroup L (L1b?) too.

There are two Q1a2 from Nevinnomiskiy in the Kuban region (Steppe above Maykop) dating from c. 2000 BCE and two more Q1a2 from Sharakhalsun in the same region, alongside an R1b-L23. These are apparently the Steppe Maykop samples. Those Q1a2 samples were almost pure EHG, so that means they have been in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe for a while. I wonder if they could be related to the Scandinavian Q1a2 (L527 and L804).
 
Q1a2 is together with R1b in mesolithic Baltic and Khvalynsk and Afanasevo, it makes a little too much for only be a coincidence, they must have lived together for a certain amount of time.
 
Edit: What they mean by anatolia neolithic is actually EEF, dont know why they said anatolia neolithic instead of EEF. So Yamnaya was basically WHG / EHG / CHG / EEF / ANE its a gigantic melting pot if you ask me.
 
Its also weird that the CHG amount dont decrease in post-yamnaya cultures like sintashta and andronovo, the logic for andronovo would be an increase of EHG and an input of ANE or siberian / central asian dna, so is that means that in bronze age, south caucasus and the eurasian steppe always exchange some dna to keep the pretty much same ratio?
 
Sad for Jean Manco to pass away just before all those premium papers, her that was passionate by history... :/
 
Btw, that siberian ancestry in maikop is very important, recently the oldest kurgan have been found in a western siberian context and maikop have one of the earliest kurgans, is Q1a2 and western siberian in the origins of kurgans ?
 
and not even one e1b1b1 expected but still bummer :(
 
and not even one e1b1b1 expected but still bummer :(
Why would there be ? Isn't E1b1b1 the lineage of Natufians and some EEF ? Why would they be in the Caucasus ?
 
That's pretty weird that Krause and Reich both from a south caucasus origin of PIE publish a paper that somehow contradicte it. South Caucasus is now a dead end for PIE origin or they are enough stupid to believe that an admixture but any y-dna haplogroups lineage gonna explain the movement of a population and a language. But what this study shows clearly is that south and north caucasus had intense relationship and as it was said, the mtdna is pretty much the same in both so the women trade hypothesis blabla was maybe right after all. The final response now have 3 possibilities, Bulgaria / Romania coastline, North Trukey near Sinop ( for a marine migration of anatolians speaker from crimea to anatolia ) or coastline of Georgia and / or Azerbaidjan. Really those recent studies are strange in the way their authors are interpreting it, from the amateur community it's understandable everybody have bias, but from professionnal researchers, i really dont understand.
 
Kura-Araxes samples are G2b and J1 and we also have an older R1b(xM269) and mtDNA R1a1, K3, U4a2 (I don't remember what was the mtDNA of the older sample*)

Most things said about Kura-Araxes expansion in this thread and also in Anthrogenica by users Agamemnon, Principe etc, are not based on the actual data.

*It was X2f
 
But the datas are here, Maikop Steppe are north eurasian R1 foragers and Maikop foothills are CHG / middle eastern. Maikop was not indo-european and certainly played the rule of the kartvelian influence in PIE and the introduction of metallurgy and or carts. Western part of eastern europe was EHG so ANE with some WHG influence and the eastern part were EHG with female mediated CHG influence and ANE western siberians, those same could have bring kurgans to steppe and south caucasus near daghestan / azerbaidjan to J1 people. That study debunked completely the PIE origin south of the caucasus. There is no way to explain in so much little time frame how an elite " Maikop " with totally different y-dna lineage would influence the entire steppe with PIE but not survive as a lineage. Steppe was intensively sampled, no J1, no L1, no G2b, nothing... Maikop was certainly related with modern caucasian languages and might influence the steppe culturally, genetically and linguistically. Even Daghestan had J1. That study put an end to the Armenian hypothesis or the south caucasus hypothesis but nether the authors, nether some people of eupedia have understand it.
 
But the datas are here, Maikop Steppe are north eurasian R1 foragers and Maikop foothills are CHG / middle eastern. Maikop was not indo-european and certainly played the rule of the kartvelian influence in PIE and the introduction of metallurgy and or carts. Western part of eastern europe was EHG so ANE with some WHG influence and the eastern part were EHG with female mediated CHG influence and ANE western siberians. That study debunked completely the PIE origin south of the caucasus. There is no way to explain in so much little time frame how an elite " Maikop " with totally different y-dna lineage would influence the entire steppe with PIE but not survive as a lineage. Steppe was intensively sampled, no J1, no L1, no G, nothing... Maikop was certainly related with modern caucasian languages and might influence the steppe culturally, genetically and linguistically. Even Daghestan had J1. That study put an end to the Armenian hypothesis or the south caucasus hypothesis but nether the authors, nether some people of eupedia have understand it.

We haven't found yet any J2a or G2a in Kura-Araxes samples and people still connect them to the Kura-Araxes expansion. My comment was about that.

And, theoretically at least, R1b-M269 people could have brought CHG admixture in Greece.

Concerning the IEness of Maykop, in my book those on the foothills could have been Indo-European. The presence of an IE language there can explain the similarities between NWC and IE.

The region where Maciamo thinks Proto-Indo-European could have originated is a possible NEC homeland or 'Alarodian' speaking area, imo.
 
Did you even bother reading the paper? This paper burried your Steppes hypothesis finally. Even the authors themselve say this. Embarrassing.
That's the contrary, they based their origin of PIE between CHG and EHG in their mind, if CHG is in steppe and EHG not in anatolia, so PIE came from the south. This is of course a ridiculous hypothesis. The fact is, this study shows that Caucasus is a dead end for both PIE coming from south to north or north to south. The real scenario is Anatolians came throught the Balkans and Iranians of course from the eurasian steppe way later. Their conclusion dont match the facts that some people have put together for many years, you want to know what is the real meaning of this paper ? north caucasus was EHG / ANE, south caucasus was CHG / ??? with CHG influencing north with a female biased scenario, it shows in the mtdna of both. The only point is, Maikop culture have a southern origin meaning they influence somehow the pontic steppe but it's not IE it's caucasus languages, you ask why ? well i say it, where is the southern caucasus y-dna marker in pontic steppe ? We are not in a babylonian hypothesis here with a master race, if maikop was PIE than arabian J1 would be IE too and not semitic, PIE would be showing way more in ancient time in the south caucasus. Instead we have semitic, hurrite and many isolate. PIE came from steppe try to debunked it.
 
The L samples, labeled 'Late Maykop' are from the Kabardino-Balkar Republic, near Nalchik.

The J2a1 and G2a2a samples labeled 'Maykop Novosvobodna' are from Adygea, near Maykop (the city). There, according to Alexei Rezepkin, the most ancient bronze sword on record, dating from the second or third century of the 4th millennium BC is found.

I haven't read his work but Rezepkin believes the following (from Wikipedia):
According to Rezepkin, Central Europe must have been the homeland of the Indo-Europeans.[5] Accordingly, Indo-Europeans were behind the successive Linear Pottery culture, the Funnelbeaker culture, the Globular Amphora culture, and the Corded Ware culture. In favor of this view is the apparent lack of any abrupt change in European populations since the Neolithic, and until the first written sources appear.
Rezepkin sees the emergence of Novosvobodnaya culture as the result of a migration from Europe. Their 'megalithism', their black-polished ceramic amphorae, bowls and cups, find a compelling analogy in the Funnelbeaker culture of Germany.

According to the Greek myths there was a prehistoric movement towards that region from Thessaly. Greeks called some of the inhabitants of that region 'Achaeans' and 'Heniochians'.

--
I don't know if the 'Steppe Maykop' samples are really from Maykop. I think all of them are from Stavropol Krai. Three of them closer to Kalmykia, near Kalaus river. (the males have R1, Q1a2, we have Y-DNA only from those but the first is labeled 'outlier'). Only one is closer to Kabardino-Balkar Republic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalaus_River
 
The L samples, labeled 'Late Maykop' are from the Kabardino-Balkar Republic, near Nalchik.

The J2a1 and G2a2a samples labeled 'Maykop Novosvobodna' are from Adygea, near Maykop (the city). There, according to Alexei Rezepkin, the most ancient bronze sword on record, dating from the second or third century of the 4th millennium BC is found.

I haven't read his work but Rezepkin believes the following (from Wikipedia):


According to the Greek myths there was a prehistoric movement towards that region from Thessaly. Greeks called some of the inhabitants of that region 'Achaeans' and 'Heniochians'.
We enter into very complicate hypothesis here. Most easy way to interprete Maikop are a non-indo-european culture coming from the south with a copper age package that influence materially the pontic steppe, and steppe maybe more from the east ( botai ) influence maikop and western pontic steppe with kurgans and horses.
 
P5tjuR4.png



The only sound conclusion I can draw from this is that the common Caucasus ancestry between Transcaucasia and the Steppe was driven by female-mediated gene flow, how that happened may not be as stupid as my mind pictures it for me.

Its true Hajji Fairoz was Z2013, but given how large the admixture into the north is, you would expect at least one guy who is L or J or G. and yet none have been found.

If their society was matriarchial, then PIE could have been spoken south of Caucasus, else all IE language branches fall to the north, even Anatolian.
 
P5tjuR4.png



The only sound conclusion I can draw from this is that the common Caucasus ancestry between Transcaucasia and the Steppe was driven by female-mediated gene flow, how that happened may not be as stupid as my mind pictures it for me.

Its true Hajji Fairoz was Z2013, but given how large the admixture into the north is, you would expect at least one guy who is L or J or G. and yet none have been found.

If their society was matriarchial, then PIE could have been spoken south of Caucasus, else all IE language branches fall to the north, even Anatolian.

Maikop steppe have y-dna Q1a2 with mtdna U7b, looks like U7b is purely an iranian mtdna lineage, dont know if that fact gonna change soon. Kura-araxes is J1 with mtdna U4, looks really female mediated for me. It's actually a more important point than the origin of PIE if you ask me, sounds like Caucasus was an electron who attract both north and south.
 
We already knew that the Caucasus genetic profile is Anatolian Neolithic + CHG, what can that tell us about the languages spoken in the Caucasus and Europe ?

Etruscan’s genealogical linguistic relationship with Nakh-Daghestanian and other ancient languages like Hurrian and Urartian could very well be explained as emanating from a language spoken by Anatolian farmers.

other theories connect Basque and Georgian.

That is if an ancestor language of Etruscan was indeed spoken by European farmers.
 

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