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Thread: Ancient genomes from Caucasus inc. Maykop

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    Its also weird that the CHG amount dont decrease in post-yamnaya cultures like sintashta and andronovo, the logic for andronovo would be an increase of EHG and an input of ANE or siberian / central asian dna, so is that means that in bronze age, south caucasus and the eurasian steppe always exchange some dna to keep the pretty much same ratio?

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Sad for Jean Manco to pass away just before all those premium papers, her that was passionate by history... :/

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Btw, that siberian ancestry in maikop is very important, recently the oldest kurgan have been found in a western siberian context and maikop have one of the earliest kurgans, is Q1a2 and western siberian in the origins of kurgans ?

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    and not even one e1b1b1 expected but still bummer

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    and not even one e1b1b1 expected but still bummer
    Why would there be ? Isn't E1b1b1 the lineage of Natufians and some EEF ? Why would they be in the Caucasus ?

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    2 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    That's pretty weird that Krause and Reich both from a south caucasus origin of PIE publish a paper that somehow contradicte it. South Caucasus is now a dead end for PIE origin or they are enough stupid to believe that an admixture but any y-dna haplogroups lineage gonna explain the movement of a population and a language. But what this study shows clearly is that south and north caucasus had intense relationship and as it was said, the mtdna is pretty much the same in both so the women trade hypothesis blabla was maybe right after all. The final response now have 3 possibilities, Bulgaria / Romania coastline, North Trukey near Sinop ( for a marine migration of anatolians speaker from crimea to anatolia ) or coastline of Georgia and / or Azerbaidjan. Really those recent studies are strange in the way their authors are interpreting it, from the amateur community it's understandable everybody have bias, but from professionnal researchers, i really dont understand.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Kura-Araxes samples are G2b and J1 and we also have an older R1b(xM269) and mtDNA R1a1, K3, U4a2 (I don't remember what was the mtDNA of the older sample*)

    Most things said about Kura-Araxes expansion in this thread and also in Anthrogenica by users Agamemnon, Principe etc, are not based on the actual data.

    *It was X2f

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    But the datas are here, Maikop Steppe are north eurasian R1 foragers and Maikop foothills are CHG / middle eastern. Maikop was not indo-european and certainly played the rule of the kartvelian influence in PIE and the introduction of metallurgy and or carts. Western part of eastern europe was EHG so ANE with some WHG influence and the eastern part were EHG with female mediated CHG influence and ANE western siberians, those same could have bring kurgans to steppe and south caucasus near daghestan / azerbaidjan to J1 people. That study debunked completely the PIE origin south of the caucasus. There is no way to explain in so much little time frame how an elite " Maikop " with totally different y-dna lineage would influence the entire steppe with PIE but not survive as a lineage. Steppe was intensively sampled, no J1, no L1, no G2b, nothing... Maikop was certainly related with modern caucasian languages and might influence the steppe culturally, genetically and linguistically. Even Daghestan had J1. That study put an end to the Armenian hypothesis or the south caucasus hypothesis but nether the authors, nether some people of eupedia have understand it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    But the datas are here, Maikop Steppe are north eurasian R1 foragers and Maikop foothills are CHG / middle eastern. Maikop was not indo-european and certainly played the rule of the kartvelian influence in PIE and the introduction of metallurgy and or carts. Western part of eastern europe was EHG so ANE with some WHG influence and the eastern part were EHG with female mediated CHG influence and ANE western siberians. That study debunked completely the PIE origin south of the caucasus. There is no way to explain in so much little time frame how an elite " Maikop " with totally different y-dna lineage would influence the entire steppe with PIE but not survive as a lineage. Steppe was intensively sampled, no J1, no L1, no G, nothing... Maikop was certainly related with modern caucasian languages and might influence the steppe culturally, genetically and linguistically. Even Daghestan had J1. That study put an end to the Armenian hypothesis or the south caucasus hypothesis but nether the authors, nether some people of eupedia have understand it.
    We haven't found yet any J2a or G2a in Kura-Araxes samples and people still connect them to the Kura-Araxes expansion. My comment was about that.

    And, theoretically at least, R1b-M269 people could have brought CHG admixture in Greece.

    Concerning the IEness of Maykop, in my book those on the foothills could have been Indo-European. The presence of an IE language there can explain the similarities between NWC and IE.

    The region where Maciamo thinks Proto-Indo-European could have originated is a possible NEC homeland or 'Alarodian' speaking area, imo.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    That's pretty weird that Krause and Reich both from a south caucasus origin of PIE publish a paper that somehow contradicte it. South Caucasus is now a dead end for PIE origin or they are enough stupid to believe that an admixture but any y-dna haplogroups lineage gonna explain the movement of a population and a language. But what this study shows clearly is that south and north caucasus had intense relationship and as it was said, the mtdna is pretty much the same in both so the women trade hypothesis blabla was maybe right after all. The final response now have 3 possibilities, Bulgaria / Romania coastline, North Trukey near Sinop ( for a marine migration of anatolians speaker from crimea to anatolia ) or coastline of Georgia and / or Azerbaidjan. Really those recent studies are strange in the way their authors are interpreting it, from the amateur community it's understandable everybody have bias, but from professionnal researchers, i really dont understand.
    Did you even bother reading the paper? This paper burried your Steppes hypothesis finally. Even the authors themselve say this. Embarrassing.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry View Post
    Did you even bother reading the paper? This paper burried your Steppes hypothesis finally. Even the authors themselve say this. Embarrassing.
    That's the contrary, they based their origin of PIE between CHG and EHG in their mind, if CHG is in steppe and EHG not in anatolia, so PIE came from the south. This is of course a ridiculous hypothesis. The fact is, this study shows that Caucasus is a dead end for both PIE coming from south to north or north to south. The real scenario is Anatolians came throught the Balkans and Iranians of course from the eurasian steppe way later. Their conclusion dont match the facts that some people have put together for many years, you want to know what is the real meaning of this paper ? north caucasus was EHG / ANE, south caucasus was CHG / ??? with CHG influencing north with a female biased scenario, it shows in the mtdna of both. The only point is, Maikop culture have a southern origin meaning they influence somehow the pontic steppe but it's not IE it's caucasus languages, you ask why ? well i say it, where is the southern caucasus y-dna marker in pontic steppe ? We are not in a babylonian hypothesis here with a master race, if maikop was PIE than arabian J1 would be IE too and not semitic, PIE would be showing way more in ancient time in the south caucasus. Instead we have semitic, hurrite and many isolate. PIE came from steppe try to debunked it.

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    The L samples, labeled 'Late Maykop' are from the Kabardino-Balkar Republic, near Nalchik.

    The J2a1 and G2a2a samples labeled 'Maykop Novosvobodna' are from Adygea, near Maykop (the city). There, according to Alexei Rezepkin, the most ancient bronze sword on record, dating from the second or third century of the 4th millennium BC is found.

    I haven't read his work but Rezepkin believes the following (from Wikipedia):
    According to Rezepkin, Central Europe must have been the homeland of the Indo-Europeans.[5] Accordingly, Indo-Europeans were behind the successive Linear Pottery culture, the Funnelbeaker culture, the Globular Amphora culture, and the Corded Ware culture. In favor of this view is the apparent lack of any abrupt change in European populations since the Neolithic, and until the first written sources appear.
    Rezepkin sees the emergence of Novosvobodnaya culture as the result of a migration from Europe. Their 'megalithism', their black-polished ceramic amphorae, bowls and cups, find a compelling analogy in the Funnelbeaker culture of Germany.
    According to the Greek myths there was a prehistoric movement towards that region from Thessaly. Greeks called some of the inhabitants of that region 'Achaeans' and 'Heniochians'.

    --
    I don't know if the 'Steppe Maykop' samples are really from Maykop. I think all of them are from Stavropol Krai. Three of them closer to Kalmykia, near Kalaus river. (the males have R1, Q1a2, we have Y-DNA only from those but the first is labeled 'outlier'). Only one is closer to Kabardino-Balkar Republic.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalaus_River

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    The L samples, labeled 'Late Maykop' are from the Kabardino-Balkar Republic, near Nalchik.

    The J2a1 and G2a2a samples labeled 'Maykop Novosvobodna' are from Adygea, near Maykop (the city). There, according to Alexei Rezepkin, the most ancient bronze sword on record, dating from the second or third century of the 4th millennium BC is found.

    I haven't read his work but Rezepkin believes the following (from Wikipedia):


    According to the Greek myths there was a prehistoric movement towards that region from Thessaly. Greeks called some of the inhabitants of that region 'Achaeans' and 'Heniochians'.
    We enter into very complicate hypothesis here. Most easy way to interprete Maikop are a non-indo-european culture coming from the south with a copper age package that influence materially the pontic steppe, and steppe maybe more from the east ( botai ) influence maikop and western pontic steppe with kurgans and horses.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.



    The only sound conclusion I can draw from this is that the common Caucasus ancestry between Transcaucasia and the Steppe was driven by female-mediated gene flow, how that happened may not be as stupid as my mind pictures it for me.

    Its true Hajji Fairoz was Z2013, but given how large the admixture into the north is, you would expect at least one guy who is L or J or G. and yet none have been found.

    If their society was matriarchial, then PIE could have been spoken south of Caucasus, else all IE language branches fall to the north, even Anatolian.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post



    The only sound conclusion I can draw from this is that the common Caucasus ancestry between Transcaucasia and the Steppe was driven by female-mediated gene flow, how that happened may not be as stupid as my mind pictures it for me.

    Its true Hajji Fairoz was Z2013, but given how large the admixture into the north is, you would expect at least one guy who is L or J or G. and yet none have been found.

    If their society was matriarchial, then PIE could have been spoken south of Caucasus, else all IE language branches fall to the north, even Anatolian.
    Maikop steppe have y-dna Q1a2 with mtdna U7b, looks like U7b is purely an iranian mtdna lineage, dont know if that fact gonna change soon. Kura-araxes is J1 with mtdna U4, looks really female mediated for me. It's actually a more important point than the origin of PIE if you ask me, sounds like Caucasus was an electron who attract both north and south.

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    We already knew that the Caucasus genetic profile is Anatolian Neolithic + CHG, what can that tell us about the languages spoken in the Caucasus and Europe ?

    Etruscan’s genealogical linguistic relationship with Nakh-Daghestanian and other ancient languages like Hurrian and Urartian could very well be explained as emanating from a language spoken by Anatolian farmers.

    other theories connect Basque and Georgian.

    That is if an ancestor language of Etruscan was indeed spoken by European farmers.

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    Btw Catacomb is R1b, and not R1a, Maciamo gonna have to change a little bit his paper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    We already knew that the Caucasus genetic profile is Anatolian Neolithic + CHG, what can that tell us about the languages spoken in the Caucasus and Europe ?

    Etruscan’s genealogical linguistic relationship with Nakh-Daghestanian and other ancient languages like Hurrian and Urartian could very well be explained as emanating from a language spoken by Anatolian farmers.

    other theories connect Basque and Georgian.

    That is if an ancestor language of Etruscan was indeed spoken by European farmers.
    I guess this is because they believe PIE came from south, because new samples of Yamanaya have CHG + Anatolian_Neolithic + EHG, but how do they defferienciate EEF of Anatolia_Neolithic ?

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    Instead to be the homeland of the Mighty it was an international meeting point. Just for fun.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    It would be odd that they had detected a new anatolian_neolithic that would be different than EEF but the same as Anatolian Bronze Age and that the same Anatolian_Neolithic previously inexistant in the datas and in steppe would than now pop in some steppe samples from the same timeframe that we have between many years. Is there something with their calculator or ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    We already knew that the Caucasus genetic profile is Anatolian Neolithic + CHG, what can that tell us about the languages spoken in the Caucasus and Europe ?

    Etruscan’s genealogical linguistic relationship with Nakh-Daghestanian and other ancient languages like Hurrian and Urartian could very well be explained as emanating from a language spoken by Anatolian farmers.

    other theories connect Basque and Georgian.

    That is if an ancestor language of Etruscan was indeed spoken by European farmers.
    If European farmers were speaking a language related to Etruscan there would have been an Etruscan-related substrate in all European IE languages.
    I associate early Etruscans with Central European pile dwellers.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehis...round_the_Alps

    Dionysius of Halikarnassus had associated Tyrrhenians with the first builders of high wooden structures 'resembling towers'.

    As regards these Tyrrhenians, some declare them to be natives of Italy, but others call them foreigners. Those who make them a native race say that their name was given them from the forts, which they were the first of the inhabitants of this country to build; for covered buildings enclosed by walls are called by the Tyrrhenian as well as by the Greeks tyrseis or "towers." So they will have it that they received their name from this circumstance in like manner as did the Mossynoeci in Asia; for these also live in high wooden palisades resembling towers, which they call mossynes.
    Mossynoeci is a compound word, the second part of that word is Greek and means 'those who live in mossynes (=high wooden palisades resembling towers)'
    Last edited by A. Papadimitriou; 17-05-18 at 17:44.

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    I think Bolshemysskaya P297 sample in Altai, predating afanasievo, would be connected to steppe Maykop R1b, sintashta z2103 with dominant west siberia HG, Botai M73 (botai samples are extremely rare).

    Maybe Round2 would be Greek bronze and China bronze, being buried in supine position.

    The practice of digging shaft tombs was a widespread phenomenon with prominent examples found in Mycenaean Greece; in Bronze Age China; and in Mesoamerican Western Mexico.[2]
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...836#post534836 (#14)

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post



    The only sound conclusion I can draw from this is that the common Caucasus ancestry between Transcaucasia and the Steppe was driven by female-mediated gene flow, how that happened may not be as stupid as my mind pictures it for me.

    Its true Hajji Fairoz was Z2013, but given how large the admixture into the north is, you would expect at least one guy who is L or J or G. and yet none have been found.

    If their society was matriarchial, then PIE could have been spoken south of Caucasus, else all IE language branches fall to the north, even Anatolian.
    Those mtDna lineages indicate to me that there was bride exchange going both ways, but the impact north of the Caucasus might have been greater since the population density would have been less.

    I have to go back and comb through it again, but the only samples I recall which had definite autosomal gene flow from a late Maykop type group were some of the "Steppe Maykop" ones.

    Also, as I said, I don't see much difference between Late Maykop and Kura Araxes, so that ancestry definitely moved north.


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Those mtDna lineages indicate to me that there was bride exchange going both ways, but the impact north of the Caucasus might have been greater since the population density would have been less.

    I have to go back and comb through it again, but the only samples I recall which had definite autosomal gene flow from a late Maykop type group were some of the "Steppe Maykop" ones.

    Also, as I said, I don't see much difference between Late Maykop and Kura Araxes, so that ancestry definitely moved north.
    if there was bride exchange both sides of the Caucasus, it must have been before the arrival of Anatolian farmers south of the Caucasus,
    and then, it stopped

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    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry View Post
    Did you even bother reading the paper? This paper burried your Steppes hypothesis finally. Even the authors themselve say this. Embarrassing.
    explain yourself, I don't get it

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