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Thread: Ancient genomes from Caucasus inc. Maykop

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    How does the "steppe" that the amateurs found in some early Armenian groups fit into all this?
    Made me lol, considering me trying to tell those guys how on earth could you expect or be so sure that there was no EHG related ancestry in the Caucasus and adjusting region already by Late_Neolithic.

    I was 100% convinced we would find EHG like ancestry in Caucasus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    if there was bride exchange both sides of the Caucasus, it must have been before the arrival of Anatolian farmers south of the Caucasus,
    and then, it stopped
    Why do you say that, Bicicleur?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    This is getting muddy in terms of the genetics.

    "An interesting observation is that steppe zone individuals directly north of the592 Caucasus (Eneolithic Samara and Eneolithic steppe) had initially not received any593 gene flow from Anatolian farmers. Instead, the ancestry profile in Eneolithic steppe594 individuals shows an even mixture of EHG and CHG ancestry, which argues for an595 effective cultural and genetic border between the contemporaneous Eneolithic populations in the North Caucasus, notably Steppe and Caucasus. Due to the temporal597 limitations of our dataset, we currently cannot determine whether this ancestry is598 stemming from an existing natural genetic gradient running from EHG far to the north599 to CHG/Iran in the south or whether this is the result of farmers with Iranian farmer/600 CHG-related ancestry reaching the steppe zone independent of and prior to a stream601 of Anatolian farmer-like ancestry, where they mixed with local hunter-gatherers that602 carried only EHG ancestry."

    Well, if it wasn't there before, and then it was there, wouldn't you lean toward it moving in, especially as it's showing up in steppe Maykop?

    Anyway, this is helpful to keeping it straight:
    [IMG][/IMG]

    [IMG][/IMG]
    Holy crap Steppe Maykop far more EHG than Yamnaya? As I wrote in a post at the Central_ South Asian thread. How does this work with the narrative "EHG exclusive to north like Steppe/East Europe, CHG/Iran_Neo exclusive Iranian Plateau_Caucasus"? How can a part of a southern culture have more EHG than a culture further North from which according to some people they should have actually absorbed it.

    Well, there's no R1b south of the Caucasus in this set, that's for sure.
    Considering we found it in Kura Araxes and on the Iranian Plateau with no EHG admixture. I don't doubt there is some sleeping in Maykop culture with far more EHG too.

    12 samples is good but far from enough for a real picture of the yDNA landscape.
    But still as I said, I don't think Maykop is the origin of influence into Yamnaya. It is a little East. Leyla Tepe, North/Northwest/West Iran.

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    Concerning the samples labeled as 'Kura-Araxes' the G2b sample is from Armenia, NW of Gyumri but very close to the borders with Turkey. The J1 sample is from Dagestan, Russia, NW of Derbent. The distance between the two is 390km. The older R1b(xM269) sample was from the region N of Lake Sevan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Why do you say that, Bicicleur?
    if there was still bridal exchange after Anatolian farmers had arrived south of Caucasus, then there also should have been autosomal Anatolian farmer in the steppe, quod non

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    well we have 2 different genetic entities living next to each other without a barrier that seperates them (frontiers are even shifting), but no substantial admixture between both for at least 3000 years

    isn't that amazing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Why would there be ? Isn't E1b1b1 the lineage of Natufians and some EEF ? Why would they be in the Caucasus ?
    yes but still bummer
    because in south caucasus{armenia} it was present since bronze age .....

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    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry View Post
    Did you even bother reading the paper? This paper burried your Steppes hypothesis finally. Even the authors themselve say this. Embarrassing.
    Where, exactly? All I'm seeing is the hedging of their bets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    if there was still bridal exchange after Anatolian farmers had arrived south of Caucasus, then there also should have been autosomal Anatolian farmer in the steppe, quod non
    The authors say there IS autosomal Anatolian farmer in the steppe.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Their Eneolithic steppe sample in Admixture is far more than 50% CHG. In Samara Eneolithic, the CHG gets cut down a bit by WHG and, what, East Asian? Still, more than 50%.

    CHG was on the steppe very early indeed. Perhaps that's why they put in all that language about pre-existing clines.

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    Lol their chart shows CHG in Motala, CWC more CHG than EHG please... here we going away of PIE, we are reconstructd the genetic prehistory of europe with CHG in is core.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Lol their chart shows CHG in Motala, CWC more CHG than EHG please... here we going away of PIE, we are reconstructd the genetic prehistory of europe with CHG in is core.
    Excuse me, are you the poster who says he doesn't know very much about genetics? Pretty amazing certitude in that case. :)

    Maybe, just maybe, statisticians who created these programs know more than you do?

    Also, did you forget about J1 in the mesolithic far northeast? I think you did.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Amazing how they are evading altogether Shulaveri Shomu both in time and geography. I am expectant! they have something!

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    This admixture graph is weird



    Do the EHG only have 9% ANE ?

    Steppe Eneolithic is EHG + Basal Eurasian. and it is from the basal part of CHG.

    CHG is Basal Eurasian + West Eurasian lineage that separated from the line contributing to WHG, EHG, and EEF. Where is ANE ? there is a lot of it in CHG based on the modelling of Lazaridis 2016.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    From Razib Khan, a rather balanced analysis minus the histrionics.
    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2018/...medium=twitter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The authors say there IS autosomal Anatolian farmer in the steppe.
    yes, in the steppe Maykop outliers and the late north Caucasus
    and there was a little seeping in maybe from the west, maybe from the south, maybe from Globular amphora,

    but if the bride swap brought so much CHG/Iran Neo, there should have been more Anatolian Farmer have come along

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Excuse me, are you the poster who says he doesn't know very much about genetics? Pretty amazing certitude in that case. :)

    Maybe, just maybe, statisticians who created these programs know more than you do?

    Also, did you forget about J1 in the mesolithic far northeast? I think you did.
    That J was 100% EHG, they knew about teal even before CHG was conceputalized. So how most of ancient samples turn CHG now ? Because CHG came from the north ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Their Eneolithic steppe sample in Admixture is far more than 50% CHG. In Samara Eneolithic, the CHG gets cut down a bit by WHG and, what, East Asian? Still, more than 50%.

    CHG was on the steppe very early indeed. Perhaps that's why they put in all that language about pre-existing clines.
    in his book David Reich says CHG admixture in the steppe started ca 7 ka, but nobody knows exactly when
    it is observed in Khvalynsk, that is the earliest afaik

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    yes, in the steppe Maykop outliers and the late north Caucasus
    and there was a little seeping in maybe from the west, maybe from the south, maybe from Globular amphora,

    but if the bride swap brought so much CHG/Iran Neo, there should have been more Anatolian Farmer have come along
    Yes, if most of it was relatively late in the day.



    So, are we looking at a very early movement of a "CHG" heavy population north onto the steppe which is responsible for the majority of the "CHG" signal?

    This might tie in with their speculation of a mixed EHG/CHG cline running north to south through the Caucasus, which ties in with how they model EHG in that Admixture chart. Of course, Admixture is not the be all and end all. I'm still going through the Supplement results for the other analyses.

    The fact remains that the mtDna in this new cluster of samples shows mtDna usually associated with northern groups in the Caucasus and vice versa.

    You might want to read the Razib Khan opinion piece I just posted.

    @halfalp,

    I know. That ONE sample was 100% EHG. The point is that "J", an unambiguously "Caucasus" clade, made it all the way up there, so SOME samples might have retained a trace of CHG, although that one sample did not.

    Yes?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Lol their chart shows CHG in Motala, CWC more CHG than EHG please... here we going away of PIE, we are reconstructd the genetic prehistory of europe with CHG in is core.
    seems like these admixture % are varying from study to study. first it was 50-60% EHG in yamnas. now its more like 30%. or the 50-60% were not saying how much was "actual" EHG admixture but how much was contributed by EHG populations including CHG like ancestry already present in these EHG's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    yes, in the steppe Maykop outliers and the late north Caucasus
    and there was a little seeping in maybe from the west, maybe from the south, maybe from Globular amphora,
    but if the bride swap brought so much CHG/Iran Neo, there should have been more Anatolian Farmer have come along
    You talk about that region? Because Sintashta samples (those labeled Sintashta_MBA_RISE.SG in that study) appear close to 30% Anatolian Neolithic. If someone modeled them as partly Globula Amphora Culture related they would appear ~40% GAC like.
    Srubnaya a little less.


    --edit--
    Btw, as I wrote we have Y-DNA from only two 'Maykop-steppe' samples. Both of them are near Kalmykia. The 'outlier' is R1, the other Q1a2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Excuse me, are you the poster who says he doesn't know very much about genetics? Pretty amazing certitude in that case. :)

    Maybe, just maybe, statisticians who created these programs know more than you do?

    Also, did you forget about J1 in the mesolithic far northeast? I think you did.

    this J1 would have been from the isolated Y6304 branch, which split from Satsurblia 14.5 ka, he was EHG

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J1/

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    You talk about that region? Because Sintashta samples (those labeled Sintashta_MBA_RISE.SG in that study) appear close to 30% Anatolian Neolithic. If someone modeled them as partly Globula Amphora Culture related they would appear ~40% GAC like.
    Srubnaya a little less.


    --edit--
    Btw, as I wrote we have Y-DNA from only two 'Maykop-steppe' samples. Both of them are near Kalmykia. The 'outlier' is R1, the other Q1a2.
    yes, both CWC and Sintashta had EEF admixture, and the source was very very likely West-European

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Excuse me, are you the poster who says he doesn't know very much about genetics? Pretty amazing certitude in that case. :)

    Maybe, just maybe, statisticians who created these programs know more than you do?

    Also, did you forget about J1 in the mesolithic far northeast? I think you did.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes, if most of it was relatively late in the day.



    So, are we looking at a very early movement of a "CHG" heavy population north onto the steppe which is responsible for the majority of the "CHG" signal?

    This might tie in with their speculation of a mixed EHG/CHG cline running north to south through the Caucasus, which ties in with how they model EHG in that Admixture chart. Of course, Admixture is not the be all and end all. I'm still going through the Supplement results for the other analyses.

    The fact remains that the mtDna in this new cluster of samples shows mtDna usually associated with northern groups in the Caucasus and vice versa.

    You might want to read the Razib Khan opinion piece I just posted.

    @halfalp,

    I know. That ONE sample was 100% EHG. The point is that "J", an unambiguously "Caucasus" clade, made it all the way up there, so SOME samples might have retained a trace of CHG, although that one sample did not.

    Yes?
    Actually, a south caucasus clade until 12’000 BC. It might originate somewhere else further we explore the true genetic meaning of CHG. Because no way CHG were in Motala or CHG is a strange brother of EHG.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    in his book David Reich says CHG admixture in the steppe started ca 7 ka, but nobody knows exactly when
    it is observed in Khvalynsk, that is the earliest afaik
    I think that Eneolithic steppe sample is 4300 BC, so that's about right. However, it's already there in really big percentages by that time, so it must have come earlier. The other hint, as you said, is lack of ANF at that point.

    Maykop is just too young for most of it.

    This is why they're saying they can't be more definitive. They don't have, or don't want to publish samples old enough to know for certain whether it's really old on the steppe, or a bit more recent but from an as yet unsampled population.

    Since I've always thought that Basal may have moved in from the Mesopotamia region, I'd love to see some ancient genomes from there.

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