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Thread: Ancient genomes from Caucasus inc. Maykop

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    In Iran Assyrians and Zoroastrians are interesting in terms of R1b. Abrahamic religion took a lot from Zoroastrians:

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    Also this Ydna void from the Caucasus seems almost like a set up for the next moment to come.

    It feels as if the authors are aware of something and withholding and setting it up so that the next paper that comes out is almost like a final act in a narrative.

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    From Wiki : "The appearance of the Ubaid folk has sometimes been linked to the so-called Sumerian problem, related to the origins of Sumerian civilisation. Whatever the ethnic origins of this group, this culture saw for the first time a clear tripartite social division between intensive subsistence peasant farmers, with crops and animals coming from the north, tent-dwelling nomadic pastoralists dependent upon their herds, and hunter-fisher folk of the Arabian littoral, living in reed huts."

    Hunters, farmers, herders... living side by side. Did they mix, or ignore/exploit each other ? Did some of them move on ?

    An unusual social structure anyway - which leaves plenty of options open...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Also this Ydna void from the Caucasus seems almost like a set up for the next moment to come.

    It feels as if the authors are aware of something and withholding and setting it up so that the next paper that comes out is almost like a final act in a narrative.
    Johane, agree.
    And most people do not seem to "get it" (mostly in other forums). this paper is about setting straight the record of who Maykop were. Nothing else. Now we know.

    So, the paper has nothing to do with PIE, or R1B, etc. Just look at the staggering number of Y dna L in there. Like the ones found in Kura araxes and pretty clear the NEW component that made the south caucasus mix AFTER 4.900B.C. , after the disappearance of the Shulaveri. - Its obvious, that the last chapter will be about the Shulaveri and their dispersal to Steppe and Southeastern Balkans.

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    Thanks, John Derite, for the table of Y-haplo's in iran - the question is: very too small sample for Assyrians here!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Thanks, John Derite, for the table of Y-haplo's in iran - the question is: very too small sample for Assyrians here!
    Yes I totally agree, it annoyed me quite a bit also. But I wasn't able to find any other study that did all of Irans different peoples neatly like this. The paper is from 2012, so its very old now, maybe someone
    has done something more in depth.

    Anyway when you dont have much to work with, better to keep working than wait imo.

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    I think we can all agree that this era in the Caucasus/South Steppe was not one of great migrations of people, but rather of great ideas. Novel technologies such as wagons and knowledge of sophisticated metallurgy were being transported quite rapidly by intrepid individuals, but they were few and did not influence the genetic composition of the steppe as we can see in Steppe and Caucasus samples who do not even share a single y-dna haplogroup and the stability of the autosomal admixture in the steppe. Different cultures of close proximity were also interpreting this technology through separate lenses with steppe people focusing on the wagons and Maykop focusing on the animals that pulled them, interestingly enough neither saw them as status markers at first. We can assume this migration of ideas did not usurp the original language of the steppe either as this technology was spread over the middle east and we still see a rich diversity of languages there centuries later. Maykop has been hypothesized to be both Kartvelian and Northwest Caucasian, considering the NW Caucasians supposed relationship with IE and the distribution of modern NW Caucasian speakers I'd say the latter is more likely. Everyone here has the right idea and looking further back in time to the original source of CHG (and cattle) in the steppe as the progenitors of what would eventually become PIE/LPIE or whatever term you wish to call it, this also gives more time for Anatolian languages if the Indo-Hittite theory is correct.


    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    From Wiki : "The appearance of the Ubaid folk has sometimes been linked to the so-called Sumerian problem, related to the origins of Sumerian civilisation. Whatever the ethnic origins of this group, this culture saw for the first time a clear tripartite social division between intensive subsistence peasant farmers, with crops and animals coming from the north, tent-dwelling nomadic pastoralists dependent upon their herds, and hunter-fisher folk of the Arabian littoral, living in reed huts."

    Hunters, farmers, herders... living side by side. Did they mix, or ignore/exploit each other ? Did some of them move on ?

    An unusual social structure anyway - which leaves plenty of options open...
    It's not too unusual, this is exactly what was going on in South Asia during the IVC, but in India it was a stable system that lasted for much longer. It does give me a farfetched idea though, there have been theories that much of the mideast was a sprachbund where separate languages were used depending on the context of the conversation e.g you use a different language in mercantile, pastoral, religious or urban related situations. Is it possible that the original PIE or so called EPIE was the language of the pastoralists?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Also this Ydna void from the Caucasus seems almost like a set up for the next moment to come.

    It feels as if the authors are aware of something and withholding and setting it up so that the next paper that comes out is almost like a final act in a narrative.
    I don’t know, but the assyians have no M73. So is it possible for only M269 to cross over the caucasus?
    We have yamna M269, eneolithic steppe R1b(?) and botai M73 in the steppe.

    So I think Bolshemysskaya P297 sample in Altai would be connected the R1b and the M73.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    From Wiki : "The appearance of the Ubaid folk has sometimes been linked to the so-called Sumerian problem, related to the origins of Sumerian civilisation. Whatever the ethnic origins of this group, this culture saw for the first time a clear tripartite social division between intensive subsistence peasant farmers, with crops and animals coming from the north, tent-dwelling nomadic pastoralists dependent upon their herds, and hunter-fisher folk of the Arabian littoral, living in reed huts."

    Hunters, farmers, herders... living side by side. Did they mix, or ignore/exploit each other ? Did some of them move on ?

    An unusual social structure anyway - which leaves plenty of options open...
    Yup, mentioned this earlier on in a different thread - and this thread too I think.

    Expect more R1b, and later J2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raspberry View Post
    Did you even bother reading the paper? This paper burried your Steppes hypothesis finally. Even the authors themselve say this. Embarrassing.
    Did you bother to read it? Because this paper doesn't even remotely bury the steppe theory. If anything, it buries the south of the Caucasus theory. Because, if the PIE homeland is there, how did late PIE get in the steppe? Not by males. And that is what this paper's data says.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    Did you bother to read it? Because this paper doesn't even remotely bury the steppe theory. If anything, it buries the south of the Caucasus theory. Because, if the PIE homeland is there, how did late PIE get in the steppe? Not by males. And that is what this paper's data says.
    Is there data from the early Maykop period not in the Steppe?

    Also am I right in saying Maykop samples are either from the Steppe or just south in the higher lands?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    In Iran Assyrians and Zoroastrians are interesting in terms of R1b. Abrahamic religion took a lot from Zoroastrians:

    it would seem that the R1b you mentioned came via the north caucasus on the black sea side as none appear with the kurds who came to eastern turkey via Gilan province south caspian sea area
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Well they actually have done it... look at their graph, CWC have more CHG than EHG, Yamnaya have more CHG than EHG. Genetically, everything is going in they way they have meant to, meaning they have the result of those samples between a long time now and that they already have create a story around them. Thats a huge meli-melo, because EHG is ANE + WHG but CHG is Iran_Neolithic + something WHG / EHG. Meaning there is no way to say what is what, Satsurblia is older than Iran_Neolithic, so what's the ancestor of Iran_Neolithic ( that have ANE ) that contribute to the early CHG ? This is really a mind breaker at this point, CHG needs to be clearly defined without any Iran_Neolithic because it is technically older than Iran_Neolithic. The response of CHG can only come from paleolithic samples of eastern europe and iran / armenian plateau. And they have create that new ANF for refute the possibility than anatolian neolithic ancestry in steppe came from EEF, i mean i'm not a complotist really, but in this study everything mingle a little too much good, more than a hundreded yamnaya samples didn't have any anatolian_neolithic at all and now in that study it pops from everywhere, but it didn't came from europe, so frome where, the caucasus ? that study is not clear at all, where in all previous studies it let place to controversy, this one tries to underground the steppe one for good, with newly created genetic notions.
    If they did, I missed it. As far as I can see, the very large percentage of CHG that they present are there in the steppe populations since a very early time, it's already present in large proportions in the Eneolithic samples. So, it does not seem like that they found that "extra CHG" that I'm talking about. I'm not talking about an "extra" amount of CHG in relation to other studies, but in terms of comparing the earliest with the latest steppe samples, that is, a diachronic increase in CHG ancestry during the Eneolithic until the Yamnaya expansion, which would suggest that "CHG-led Indo-Europeanization" of the steppe that the South Caucasus hypothesis relies on. That does not seem to have happened. If the influx of CHG happened before those Eneolithic ~4300 BC samples then it wasn't even related to any big economic revolution, like farming and pastoralism, because the bulk of these changes came to the steppes later.

    Actually even Eurogenes in his blog had repeatedly posted about Yamnaya samples showing some minor ANF or more specifically EEF-derived ancestry. It's just that the scientists' data were much less numerous and comprehensive until a few years ago. Also, EEF had already been identified years ago in significant proportions in a few Sredny Stog individuals just west of Yamanaya, in the steppes, so it would be really unbelievable if not even the later stages of Yamnaya, when it basically absorbed and superseded Sredny Stog, did not show any EEF ancestry. So, if even knowledgeable amateurs like Davidski noticed that more than two years ago, I'm pretty sure most scientists already believed it was a possible outcome, too.

    Also, I don't know where you took this idea that "they have create that new ANF for refute the possibility than anatolian neolithic ancestry in steppe came from EEF". Actually what they say in the study is exactly the opposite, that there was no ANF ancestry in earlier steppe samples and when it appears it comes together with WHG, so it probably came from EEF via the western EEF societies in Ukraine/Bulgaria/Romania. As far as I've understood they don't say most of it came from the Caucasus ANF/CHG mix at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Ok so i might have been completely wrong with the graph, but what is the green component because it pop as a majority in Iran_Neolithic ? And what is the red " Caucasus " component, because CHG is mainly green ? How i understand the graph is, in southern steppe, the CHG element become dominant over the EHG one and also a new component wich is the orange " Anatolian_Neolithic " pop up. But for what i see the orange component is only relevent for Maikop wich is not steppe but from south caucasus ?
    I think those components do not mark more specific post-Neolithic Revolution admixtures like CHG, EHG or Iran_Neolithic. See that even these most ancient admixtures look like mixtures of some of these components, so they're probably indicating Paleolithic genetic structures. I'd say the green component is something ANE-related, because we can see CHG, EHG and Iran_Neolithic had it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    If they did, I missed it. As far as I can see, the very large percentage of CHG that they present are there in the steppe populations since a very early time, it's already present in large proportions in the Eneolithic samples. So, it does not seem like that they found that "extra CHG" that I'm talking about. I'm not talking about an "extra" amount of CHG in relation to other studies, but in terms of comparing the earliest with the latest steppe samples, that is, a diachronic increase in CHG ancestry during the Eneolithic until the Yamnaya expansion, which would suggest that "CHG-led Indo-Europeanization" of the steppe that the South Caucasus hypothesis relies on. That does not seem to have happened. If the influx of CHG happened before those Eneolithic ~4300 BC samples then it wasn't even related to any big economic revolution, like farming and pastoralism, because the bulk of these changes came to the steppes later.

    Actually even Eurogenes in his blog had repeatedly posted about Yamnaya samples showing some minor ANF or more specifically EEF-derived ancestry. It's just that the scientists' data were much less numerous and comprehensive until a few years ago. Also, EEF had already been identified years ago in significant proportions in a few Sredny Stog individuals just west of Yamanaya, in the steppes, so it would be really unbelievable if not even the later stages of Yamnaya, when it basically absorbed and superseded Sredny Stog, did not show any EEF ancestry. So, if even knowledgeable amateurs like Davidski noticed that more than two years ago, I'm pretty sure most scientists already believed it was a possible outcome, too.

    Also, I don't know where you took this idea that "they have create that new ANF for refute the possibility than anatolian neolithic ancestry in steppe came from EEF". Actually what they say in the study is exactly the opposite, that there was no ANF ancestry in earlier steppe samples and when it appears it comes together with WHG, so it probably came from EEF via the western EEF societies in Ukraine/Bulgaria/Romania. As far as I've understood they don't say most of it came from the Caucasus ANF/CHG mix at all.
    Yes i know that Davidski have say that there would be EEF in steppe between a long time. Why change EEF for ANF so ? because as far as i know their ANF is the same to south caucasus, so why not say EEF = ANF + WHG ? For the graph its all over the topic, the green component ( CHG ? ) pop in Motala.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Do these results support the hypothesis of R1b moving from Anatolia through the Caucasus and taking CHG women, and then further moving up and taking some EHG women, with the Kura-Araxes expansion resulting in mainly J2 taking the R1b women (yeah, I know, Y DNA is only found in men) from the stage of R1b taking women in the Caucasus?

    Because that's what I think happened. It could be the other way round, with K-A forcing the R1b guys upwards instead of just expanding from the power vacuum left by R1b moving upwards.

    I could also be completely wrong, but I'm just trying to model in two things I see as very likely: R1b coming from (Eastern) Anatolia, and the Kura-Araxes picking up R1b-like ancestry.
    That isn't very likely because of dating. Even before 4000 BC (the rough time of Kura-Araxes and Maykop was began in the 4th milennium BC, so a bit later) the CHG component and the R1b haplogroup was already found in the steppes. That migration from the Caucasus to the steppes could've happened, but it would've happened in an earlier historic context (not with Kura-Araxes, Yamnaya and Maykop so on), and you'd have first to establish what autosomal ancestry was mainly found in those R1b males, because if they were autosomally different, then they took CHG women and mixed with them and then they arrived in the steppes and took EHG women, then we certainly wouldn't expect the Chalcolithic steppe to be almost entirely EHG+CHG, as if the autosomal contribution of those R1b men had simply vanished completely. Unless, of course, the "R1b men" were just a small minority (but if they were then why are almost all the steppe males R1b? Not very likely IMHO), or they were already fully CHG just like the CHG women they took before moving into the steppes. In any case, if I were you I'd look for earlier Neolithic cultures, not those of the Copper Age and Early Bronze Age. The real "boom" of CHG in the steppes doesn't look to be that comparatively recent.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    To the one who found my post unhelpful, you can elaborate about what you found unhelpful and we can deliberate and have a conversation about it that we may both find helpful in the end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Yes i know that Davidski have say that there would be EEF in steppe between a long time. Why change EEF for ANF so ? because as far as i know their ANF is the same to south caucasus, so why not say EEF = ANF + WHG ? For the graph its all over the topic, the green component ( CHG ? ) pop in Motala.
    They didn't. EEF vs. ANF is a terminology that has been used for years, did you somehow miss that? ANF needs to be distinguished from EEF especially in an Asian or Europe-Asia border context. I think they don't say that EEF = ANF + WHG because, firstly, because everyone knows that by now, and secondly because WHG and ANF may theoretically have come to some place in different waves and not from the same genetic structure that created EEF (there was certainly genetic drift and differentiation by isolation between certain strands of WHG and other WHG absorbed by EEF, and ditto for ANF). They can and did test if that increase in ANF and WHG in the steppes fits better with separate routes than with an arrival together as part of EEF - and they confirm that it's much more likely that it came with EEF populations.

    Also, as I said in other answer, I don't really think the green component is CHG. CHG looks like a mix of that green component with other admixtures, so by definition it can't be defined as that green component. It looks more like something ANE-related or a broadly North Eurasian ancient admixture - and I wouldn't be surprised at all that Motala had it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Promenade View Post
    To the one who found my post unhelpful, you can elaborate about what you found unhelpful and we can deliberate and have a conversation about it that we may both find helpful in the end.
    Right, I also noticed that. Isn't it ludicrous that someone disagreed so strongly and absolutely with what you said that they felt they should give your post a negative rating, yet does not care to write anything even if just to enlighten other people about the "truth" and avoid people from believing wrong stuff? Or maybe, well, the negative rating means just "I didn't like it, this is so inconvenient to my stubbornly held beliefs", and there is not much else to say. LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Johane, agree.And most people do not seem to "get it" (mostly in other forums). this paper is about setting straight the record of who Maykop were. Nothing else. Now we know.So, the paper has nothing to do with PIE, or R1B, etc. Just look at the staggering number of Y dna L in there. Like the ones found in Kura araxes and pretty clear the NEW component that made the south caucasus mix AFTER 4.900B.C. , after the disappearance of the Shulaveri. - Its obvious, that the last chapter will be about the Shulaveri and their dispersal to Steppe and Southeastern Balkans.
    Please, without rambling, why do you think Shulaveri went to the Balkans?

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    It's then pretty confusing to see south caucasus 30% ANF and Yamnaya ANF too. if yamnaya is ANF and not EEF it means Anatolian_Neolithic came from south caucasus. EEF is anatolian_farmer + WHG = european farmer. ANF is just anatolian_neolithic, so if anatolian_neolithic is in steppe without WHG, why are they saying ANF with something WHG and not EEF ? And the green is CHG it's says in the graphics, i didn't understand first because iran_chalcolithic is like 80% CHG, but it says in the graph that this is CHG.

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    It would be convenient to take into account the ecosystem as to understand old migrations: EEF or ANF would'nt be much interested in bare lands with no possibility to grow crops, for farmers the steppe was a desert, instead, for herders the steppe was a wide land free to colonize. The line dividing steppe and Caucasus in the map is telling well what I'm suggesting, it was an invisible frontier.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    That isn't very likely because of dating. Even before 4000 BC (the rough time of Kura-Araxes and Maykop was began in the 4th milennium BC, so a bit later) the CHG component and the R1b haplogroup was already found in the steppes. That migration from the Caucasus to the steppes could've happened, but it would've happened in an earlier historic context (not with Kura-Araxes, Yamnaya and Maykop so on), and you'd have first to establish what autosomal ancestry was mainly found in those R1b males, because if they were autosomally different, then they took CHG women and mixed with them and then they arrived in the steppes and took EHG women, then we certainly wouldn't expect the Chalcolithic steppe to be almost entirely EHG+CHG, as if the autosomal contribution of those R1b men had simply vanished completely. Unless, of course, the "R1b men" were just a small minority (but if they were then why are almost all the steppe males R1b? Not very likely IMHO), or they were already fully CHG just like the CHG women they took before moving into the steppes. In any case, if I were you I'd look for earlier Neolithic cultures, not those of the Copper Age and Early Bronze Age. The real "boom" of CHG in the steppes doesn't look to be that comparatively recent.
    Why can’t there be two waves? If it’s of any relevance, I think the CWC is mostly separate from Yamnaya (phenotypically they are extremely different, but they also had a completely different Y DNA profile, lacking metallurgy skills etc.), so I agree that given CHG is found in abundance amongst the CWC, the migration bringing CHG to the Steppe must be pretty old. One thing of interest is that, according to Coon at least, the stone battle axes used by the CWC heavily resemble copper variants in Sumeria (I’m just taking that to mean roughly in the area, not enough information was given to pinpoint it to a culture (that I could find)). Then there’s also further links in the form of R1a originally (a long time ago though, even compared to the Chalcolithic) supposedly forming roughly in that region (according to Underhill), but also the clear parallels between the Corded and Iranid phenotypes - these parallels are too obvious for them not to have common origins.


    What about a second wave though, from Maykop, bringing Z2103 and metallurgy? Why couldn’t it have happened around the time of Maykop? What about that Copper Age Iranian Z2103 that was mostly Anatolian + Iranian Neolithic (correct me if I’m wrong)? And what about other things to note, such as the clear parallels in things like Chalcolithic pottery between Mesopotamia and the Balkans, and also Swastikas found in both areas?

    What really, REALLY puzzles me though, and I hope I’m misreading this, but how on Earth are the Maykop Steppe samples so EHG - far more than contemporary and even previous Steppe cultures (I think)? Also, one final thing - the paper shows similar mtDNA profiles between the Steppe and the Caucasus, but do they say where they’re getting their samples from for each? Is it just the Steppe (North) Maykop and the Caucasus (South) Maykop? Because if that is the case, we could learn a lot from comparing it to Yamnaya (and Corded Ware) mtDNA profiles...

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    R1b-Z2105 could be a clade of herders, they can colonize much more lands than farmers and much more faster. If coming from the south some pockets would be found in the Caucasian highlands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    It's then pretty confusing to see south caucasus 30% ANF and Yamnaya ANF too. if yamnaya is ANF and not EEF it means Anatolian_Neolithic came from south caucasus. EEF is anatolian_farmer + WHG = european farmer. ANF is just anatolian_neolithic, so if anatolian_neolithic is in steppe without WHG, why are they saying ANF with something WHG and not EEF ? And the green is CHG it's says in the graphics, i didn't understand first because iran_chalcolithic is like 80% CHG, but it says in the graph that this is CHG.
    Possibly because using the abbrevation EEF you'd suggest an European origin and ANF + WHG is more neutral. However, considering the fact that some of the first signs of pastoralism on the Pontic steppe is by a culture - Usatovo - associated with Cucuteni-Tripoli you can make the guess where it came from.

    https://www.academia.edu/11290674/De...chwarzmeerraum

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