Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 8 of 25 FirstFirst ... 67891018 ... LastLast
Results 176 to 200 of 605

Thread: Ancient genomes from Caucasus inc. Maykop

  1. #176
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    491
    Points
    1,935
    Level
    12
    Points: 1,935, Level: 12
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 215
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Portugal



    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    They possibly got their hands on some samples from the Caucasus that show some of the genes previously thought to be EHG are actually CHG like.
    Alan... this might be the boldest statement in the last few years.
    I have the feeling that between alleles of WHG, EHG and CHG....there is a lot of misconceptions, mostly to serve the notion of the super uber steppe warriors BS.

  2. #177
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered10000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Johane Derite's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-06-17
    Posts
    1,016
    Points
    15,873
    Level
    38
    Points: 15,873, Level: 38
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 577
    Overall activity: 12.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13>Z5018>FGC33625
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U1a1a

    Country: Albania



    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Interesting - I don't know.

    What is the relation between Mycenaean and Hittite?
    *If any relation, then separation could happen later (meaning Hittite ancestor was Balkan "Shulaveri" IE).
    *If no relation, but Hittite related to Armenian then separation happened immediately (meaning local "shulaveri" IE stood in Erzurum region and became Hittite).
    This is a Hittite vessel in shape of a boot:



    Ceramic & Paint Vessel, ca 1900–1600 BC. Central Anatolia, Hittite

    Here is another one:




    The pointed shoe is obvious in the guy in the middle of this hittite engraving:









    Now this is a Mycenaean Rhyton in shape of boot:



    A Mycenaean rhyton in the shape of a shoe, from a chamber tomb from Voula, Attica, 1,400-1,300 BCE



    Albanians wore these until the 20th century and called them opinga. The pom pom at the front because it absorbs water faster and was good for combat in wet conditions.

    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

  3. #178
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered10000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Johane Derite's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-06-17
    Posts
    1,016
    Points
    15,873
    Level
    38
    Points: 15,873, Level: 38
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 577
    Overall activity: 12.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13>Z5018>FGC33625
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U1a1a

    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Interesting - I don't know.

    What is the relation between Mycenaean and Hittite?
    *If any relation, then separation could happen later (meaning Hittite ancestor was Balkan "Shulaveri" IE).
    *If no relation, but Hittite related to Armenian then separation happened immediately (meaning local "shulaveri" IE stood in Erzurum region and became Hittite).

    Note: I find it strange, to say the least, that linguistics can pretend to ascertain the split of two 7000 year old languages measured by centuries, I truly don't get it. Instinct is to called it Bullshit.

    Hittite lions:






    Mycenean Lions:


  4. #179
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    491
    Points
    1,935
    Level
    12
    Points: 1,935, Level: 12
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 215
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Portugal



    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    That's the main problem (except for the Anatolian languages, which would fit an earlier Early PIE dispersal before the later Steppe PIE expansion): as far as I have read from the works of linguists, Anatolian and Hittite more specifically does not look particularly more related to Greek or Armenian at all and, in fact, IIRC some have argued that, among non-Anatolian IE branches, Anatolian could be assumed to be a bit (not much) closer to some Italo-Celtic features. Also, there is the fact that a Hittite-Armenian or Hittite-Greek, or then a tripartite Hittite-Armenian-Greek connection is not very supported by mainstream linguistics. Greek and Armenians are, much more even than Italo-Celtic, noticeably closer to arguably "steppe" IE branches, particularly Indo-Iranian, and in fact an appreciable number of linguists entertained the possibility of a Graeco-Armenian-Aryan dialect continuum in the early development of those subfamilies. Indo-Iranian also has clear connections with Balto-Slavic. So, it doesn't look like Greek and Armenian are "that" ancient - not as much as Anatolian - in terms of divergence form the rest of the PIE family, which would've developed in the steppes.
    Makes sense. Leaps of thousands of years and linguistics always problematic.
    I asked Mycenean not Greek. but anyways. So, Hittite an isolated (Erzurum or south balkans?) and Armenian derived from Iranic IE.

    Note: I still don't understand how LPIE is ascertained as "Steppe", which a large enough component of it I am sure it was, and the evolution of IE into several families and branches not have room for a Balkan IE that was similar to the Steppe IE (not time for big divergence) and most important, all 4th milenia saw movements from balkans to "steppe" and from there to balkans...

    See https://r1b2westerneurope.blogs.sapo...e-speaker-8042

  5. #180
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    491
    Points
    1,935
    Level
    12
    Points: 1,935, Level: 12
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 215
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Portugal



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Derite...
    Thanks for explaining the Pom Pom... I was worried about the albanians for a second.

    And albanian as an IE is also "weird", right ;)

  6. #181
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered10000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Johane Derite's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-06-17
    Posts
    1,016
    Points
    15,873
    Level
    38
    Points: 15,873, Level: 38
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 577
    Overall activity: 12.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13>Z5018>FGC33625
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U1a1a

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Derite...
    Thanks for explaining the Pom Pom... I was worried about the albanians for a second.

    And albanian as an IE is also "weird", right ;)
    They also look cool : p

    https://imgur.com/5U6IOyb

  7. #182
    Moderator Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree Friends25000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    1,734
    Points
    27,708
    Level
    51
    Points: 27,708, Level: 51
    Level completed: 15%, Points required for next Level: 942
    Overall activity: 16.0%


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Makes sense. Leaps of thousands of years and linguistics always problematic.
    I asked Mycenean not Greek. but anyways. So, Hittite an isolated (Erzurum or south balkans?) and Armenian derived from Iranic IE.

    Note: I still don't understand how LPIE is ascertained as "Steppe", which a large enough component of it I am sure it was, and the evolution of IE into several families and branches not have room for a Balkan IE that was similar to the Steppe IE (not time for big divergence) and most important, all 4th milenia saw movements from balkans to "steppe" and from there to balkans...

    See https://r1b2westerneurope.blogs.sapo...e-speaker-8042
    Theoretically, that Balkan IE could have existed, but it could have simply been absorbed by later IE branches well before writing arrived in that region. And of course it isn't still settled where the Anatolian IE branch came from. If it ultimately came from the Balkans, it could theoretically be either a very early (and already heavily diluted in terms of EHG) steppe-via-the-Balkans branch, or... this "Balkan IE" which you hypothesize.

    As for Mycenaean vs. Greek, it doesn't matter much. Classical Greek is clearly derived from the same language as Mycenaean Greek and actually most probably its own daughter language. So the story of their origins would be exactly the same. Greek, Armenian and Indo-Iranian probably had a common immediate source, and for now I'd bet it was in the steppes - and also reasonably later than the 1st IE dispersals with Anatolian, Tocharian and very possibly other IE families that were simply not attested because their homelands lacked literacy until when it was too late.

  8. #183
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    491
    Points
    1,935
    Level
    12
    Points: 1,935, Level: 12
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 215
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Portugal



    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    ....Greek, Armenian and Indo-Iranian probably had a common immediate source, and for now I'd bet it was in the steppes - and also reasonably later than the 1st IE dispersals with Anatolian, Tocharian and very possibly other IE families that were simply not attested because their homelands lacked literacy until when it was too late.
    ...and I don't get it why, with the tenets and beacons of current "truth" (labs) saying that PIE origin was miles way from Armenia and Iran, you think its origin, au contraire, was actually beyond a great mountain range and a huge desert. Strange.

  9. #184
    Moderator Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree Friends25000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    1,734
    Points
    27,708
    Level
    51
    Points: 27,708, Level: 51
    Level completed: 15%, Points required for next Level: 942
    Overall activity: 16.0%


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    Another good indication in the study that, if PIE came originally from the South Caucasus, it's a very ancient phenomenon of CHG-like > CHG+EHG admixture and more like the origins of pre-PIE or "Early PIE" than a consequence of "the" process of PIE expansion and dispersal/divergence we all talk so much about it:

    "Our fitted model recapitulates the genetic separation between the Caucasus and Steppe groups with the Eneolithic steppe individuals deriving more than 60% of ancestry from EHG and the remainder from a CHG-related basal lineage, whereas the Maykop group received about 86.4% from CHG, 9.6% Anatolian farming related ancestry, and 4% from EHG."


    Notice they, for some reason, make a clear differentiation between the "CHG-related basal" ancestry of Eneolithic Steppe (and the autosomal makeup didn't seem to change much until later in Yamnaya times) and the plain "CHG" in Maykop. That must mean something.

  10. #185
    Moderator Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree Friends25000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    1,734
    Points
    27,708
    Level
    51
    Points: 27,708, Level: 51
    Level completed: 15%, Points required for next Level: 942
    Overall activity: 16.0%


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    ...and I don't get it why, with the tenets and beacons of current "truth" (labs) saying that PIE origin was miles way from Armenia and Iran, you think its origin, au contraire, was actually beyond a great mountain range and a huge desert. Strange.
    I honestly didn't understand what you're talking about. I'm not even talking about the PIE origin, but about the source of the dispersal of some late IE dialects that split to form separate IE subfamilies. That, of course, happened centuries or even milennia after the origin of PIE somewhere in Eurasia. Also, you yourself just said, a few answers above, that you also believe that part of the PIE-speaking Shulaveri Shomu dispersed to the steppes and spoke PIE there, not just in the Balkans. So, you seem to be contradicting yourself now. Sometimes it feels like you get confused with the chronology, and suddenly facts that probably - even if you're totally right - happened in 4900 BC BC and circa 3000 BC are lumped together as if they're all the same. Finally, I'm totally sure the Ukrainian and Russian southern steppes are not a huge desert, they're actually excellent land for pastoralism and even, at least with modern techniques, for farming.

  11. #186
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    521
    Points
    6,349
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,349, Level: 23
    Level completed: 60%, Points required for next Level: 201
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post

    The pointed shoe is obvious in the guy in the middle of this hittite engraving:




    Albanians wore these until the 20th century and called them opinga. The pom pom at the front because it absorbs water faster and was good for combat in wet conditions.
    Interesting, Albanian people has still kept authentic greek cultures.

    Anyway the Hittite seems to have dreadlocks like ancient greek, dardic, and maybe Yazidi kurd. And I think Hittite god Teshub, holding a triple thunderbolt and a weapon, would be conceptually connected to mesoamerican creator Votan, western odin, and maybe Jeus.


    http://kurdishpeople.org/kurdish-hairstyle/






    http://www.probashionline.com/alexan...ity-of-ladakh/

    Senyurek (1951d, pp. 614-15) concludes that "the majority of the Chalcolithic and Copper Age inhabitants of Anatolia were dolichocephals of mainly Eurafrican and Mediterranean types, and that the brachycephals, probably representing the invaders, were rare in these periods. This study has further supported the conclusion that the earliest inhabitants of Anatolia were longheaded, and that the brachycephals came in subsequently. "The craniological evidence indicates that an invasion of brachycephals into Anatolia took place during the Chalcolithic period and that it was followed by a second invasion, bringing in the brachycephalic elements to Alaca Huyuk and other Copper Age sites, probably at about the middle of the Copper Age. The next invasion of brachycephals, which was more important and extensive than the previous ones, occurred at about 2000 B.C. This was made by the Hittites who were predominantly of the classical Alpine type."

  12. #187
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    491
    Points
    1,935
    Level
    12
    Points: 1,935, Level: 12
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 215
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Portugal



    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Another good indication in the study that, if PIE came originally from the South Caucasus, it's a very ancient phenomenon of CHG-like > CHG+EHG admixture and more like the origins of pre-PIE or "Early PIE" than a consequence of "the" process of PIE expansion and dispersal/divergence we all talk so much about it:

    "Our fitted model recapitulates the genetic separation between the Caucasus and Steppe groups with the Eneolithic steppe individuals deriving more than 60% of ancestry from EHG and the remainder from a CHG-related basal lineage, whereas the Maykop group received about 86.4% from CHG, 9.6% Anatolian farming related ancestry, and 4% from EHG."


    Notice they, for some reason, make a clear differentiation between the "CHG-related basal" ancestry of Eneolithic Steppe (and the autosomal makeup didn't seem to change much until later in Yamnaya times) and the plain "CHG" in Maykop. That must mean something.
    Good. Because if I am right the Iran/CHG for Maykop, deriving from lets call it Ubaid/leilatepe mix with some eastern caspian Kura-araxes IranN can not, can not (!) be the same admixture that the shulaveri, at least from Arukhlo, mentesh, Gadichrilli, shulaveri, Shomutepe, etc that by 5000bc , 1300 years later, need to haver admixed with Paluri/Anasueli and Ckhok people (Kotias sons?) that, contrary to IranN, were (i dont know). Isolation in western Georgia, land of Kotias, is the ones we would see admixing with Shulaveri and moving north.
    A different story should be said about the Aratashen/Arknashen and how by late 6tn milenia must be heavly admix with Kamiltepe and mil plains, until Hajji firuz.

    Shulaveri was also a wide set of people. Arrived and brought agriculture to transcaucasia by 6200bc, but by 4900bc must have different admixtures.

  13. #188
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    holderlin's Avatar
    Join Date
    01-12-14
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    770
    Points
    7,659
    Level
    26
    Points: 7,659, Level: 26
    Level completed: 19%, Points required for next Level: 491
    Overall activity: 9.0%


    Country: USA - Washington



    1 members found this post helpful.
    "CHG" and "EHG" share a ton of common ancestry from an MA-1 related population, which is relatively recent, and we're trying to separate the two.

  14. #189
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,084
    Points
    9,356
    Level
    29
    Points: 9,356, Level: 29
    Level completed: 1%, Points required for next Level: 594
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    I agree as a whole, but can we really make it a sort of "historical rule"? Weren't the Cucuteni-Tripolye very successful occupying a large part of the westernmost Pontic-Casian steppe and forest-steppe between the Bug and Dniester?


    I only see Trypolians extending into two steppe krais... better then to check exact archaeological sites/points instead to wiki maps, maybe they were capable to do some agriculture near rivers or just the map pretends to show a cohesive extension.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

  15. #190
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,084
    Points
    9,356
    Level
    29
    Points: 9,356, Level: 29
    Level completed: 1%, Points required for next Level: 594
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    a different mapping

    Attachment 10145

  16. #191
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,411
    Points
    6,524
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,524, Level: 23
    Level completed: 95%, Points required for next Level: 26
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    That's the main problem (except for the Anatolian languages, which would fit an earlier Early PIE dispersal before the later Steppe PIE expansion): as far as I have read from the works of linguists, Anatolian and Hittite more specifically does not look particularly more related to Greek or Armenian at all and, in fact, IIRC some have argued that, among non-Anatolian IE branches, Anatolian could be assumed to be a bit (not much) closer to some Italo-Celtic features. Also, there is the fact that a Hittite-Armenian or Hittite-Greek, or then a tripartite Hittite-Armenian-Greek connection is not very supported by mainstream linguistics. Greek and Armenians are, much more even than Italo-Celtic, noticeably closer to arguably "steppe" IE branches, particularly Indo-Iranian, and in fact an appreciable number of linguists entertained the possibility of a Graeco-Armenian-Aryan dialect continuum in the early development of those subfamilies. Indo-Iranian also has clear connections with Balto-Slavic. So, it doesn't look like Greek and Armenian are "that" ancient - not as much as Anatolian - in terms of divergence form the rest of the PIE family, which would've developed in the steppes.
    I think here we have to understand the remnants of their hypothesis. Krause pretty much believe to the Indo-Hittite hypothesis. The point he wants to prove is that Proto-Indo-Iranian and Proto-Armeno-Greek languages wich shares some grammatical relationship, in one side and Proto-Anatolian languages the other side are basically PIE or the first form of PIE evolution that must have happened south of the caucasus, therefore PIE is from south of the caucasus. Here, we dont talk anymore about Yamnaya, about the steppe expansion, this is the past. Of course they try to stay professionnal by referencing the recent Central Asian / South Asian paper to a reference that Proto-Indo-Iranians could have come with steppe MLBA, but this is science and scientific a lot of times dont believe ( in god ) but have convictions, and those convictions dont evicte with a single paper or whatsoever ( see how Renfrew never abandoned any idea of a near-eastern origin, he pass from his own hypothesis, the Anatolian one, to accept a little bit more the Armenian one in recent years ). So basically when we read those paper, we have to keep the Indo-Anatolian hypothesis in mind to try to understand where they want to go with the history the have created. The sample doesn't lie, the history arround can be biased ( or not ).

  17. #192
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,411
    Points
    6,524
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,524, Level: 23
    Level completed: 95%, Points required for next Level: 26
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    "CHG" and "EHG" share a ton of common ancestry from an MA-1 related population, which is relatively recent, and we're trying to separate the two.
    Yes, it's become complicate.

  18. #193
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,395
    Points
    48,528
    Level
    68
    Points: 48,528, Level: 68
    Level completed: 13%, Points required for next Level: 1,222
    Overall activity: 42.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Theoretically, that Balkan IE could have existed, but it could have simply been absorbed by later IE branches well before writing arrived in that region. And of course it isn't still settled where the Anatolian IE branch came from. If it ultimately came from the Balkans, it could theoretically be either a very early (and already heavily diluted in terms of EHG) steppe-via-the-Balkans branch, or... this "Balkan IE" which you hypothesize.
    As for Mycenaean vs. Greek, it doesn't matter much. Classical Greek is clearly derived from the same language as Mycenaean Greek and actually most probably its own daughter language. So the story of their origins would be exactly the same. Greek, Armenian and Indo-Iranian probably had a common immediate source, and for now I'd bet it was in the steppes - and also reasonably later than the 1st IE dispersals with Anatolian, Tocharian and very possibly other IE families that were simply not attested because their homelands lacked literacy until when it was too late.
    the Olalde Bell Beaker paper shows the expansion from Central Europe to the British Isles of R1b-L21 4.5 ka
    around the same time R1b-U106 seems to have expanded into the Netherlands, northern Germany and south-Scandinavia
    later expansions, as Unetice and urnfield also originated in the Carpathian Basin

    my view is that R1b-L151 was in the Carpathian Basin, with 4.8 ka
    and that from there the Italo-Celtic languages dispersed
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L151/

    in South-Scandinavia R1b-U106 merged with CWC R1a and I1 with TMRCA 4.6 ka from where later on Nordic Bronze Age and ultimately the Germanic tribes developped

    as for Armenian, Greek and Albanian, I'd guess it originates from late Yamna which ended when climate deterioriated on the steppe with 4.2 ka climatic event
    they would have been in contact with early Sintashta

  19. #194
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,411
    Points
    6,524
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,524, Level: 23
    Level completed: 95%, Points required for next Level: 26
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    the Olalde Bell Beaker paper shows the expansion from Central Europe to the British Isles of R1b-L21 4.5 ka
    around the same time R1b-U106 seems to have expanded into the Netherlands, northern Germany and south-Scandinavia
    later expansions, as Unetice and urnfield also originated in the Carpathian Basin

    my view is that R1b-L151 was in the Carpathian Basin, with 4.8 ka
    and that from there the Italo-Celtic languages dispersed
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L151/

    in South-Scandinavia R1b-U106 merged with CWC R1a and I1 with TMRCA 4.6 ka from where later on Nordic Bronze Age and ultimately the Germanic tribes developped

    as for Armenian, Greek and Albanian, I'd guess it originates from late Yamna which ended when climate deterioriated on the steppe with 4.2 ka climatic event
    they would have been in contact with early Sintashta
    One possibility for Greek, Armenian, Albanian and maybe even Indo-Iranian is that at the time of the Catacomb even if they were mostly Steppe they get an input from Maikop bigger than the previous culture and that it changes most of their autosomal dna to be way more CHG than their ancestors but also maybe an origin into the creation of the Satem language. Armenians shows the perfect exemple of that possibility full R1b-Z2103 with a satem language.

  20. #195
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,084
    Points
    9,356
    Level
    29
    Points: 9,356, Level: 29
    Level completed: 1%, Points required for next Level: 594
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    farmers faced a problem to colonize the steppes

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ne_Eneolit.png

  21. #196
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,411
    Points
    6,524
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,524, Level: 23
    Level completed: 95%, Points required for next Level: 26
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Do anybody have noticed that Catacomb culture is actually R1b-V88 ? Eneolithic Caucasus, Maikop, and some steppe folks have mtdna R1a, modern distribution of mtdna R1a is in Brahmins caste, some tribes of the Caucasus and Eastern Europe. Meaning those wives came from the south and give partial dna to the R1b y-dna steppe. Lola culture have mtdna R1b alongside Q1a2 wich seems completely Afontova Gora 3 related. Steppe Maikop have mtdna U7b wich for what i recall U7 came from Iran. H13 is also found in North Caucasus in a R1b paternal context. U4a2 and U4c1 are found respectivally in Kura-Araxes and Late Maikop. Multiple U1 mtdna lineage such as U1b, U1b1, U1a1a3 are found in a Maikop and North Caucasus context. North Caucasus is predominant y-dna R1b, multiple mtdna I found in a y-dna R1b and North Caucasus context too. Conclusion, R1b and Q1a2 steppe folk have taken mtdna U1, U7, R1a, H13 and maybe I from the southern new comers and Kura-Araxes and surely Maikop too have taken mtdna U4a2, U4c1, U5a1b1 from the steppe. Note that both CHG Satsurblia and Kotias Klde maternal side K3 and H13 are found here in both and respectively Maikop and North Caucasus R1b y-dna context. What an intense time of history, away of PIE hypothesis, steppe and south caucasus have very mingle together here especially with the maternal side, in a female mediated way. I mean it shouldn't be so difficult to be aware of that, a part if we are an hysterical feminist, in ancient times we made friends by giving the hand of his beautiful daughter. I think we can now imagine that Maikop is not indo-european or is indo-european in a southern context, CWC and BB dont have Maikop signals so it's pretty presumable that Maikop was a non-indo-european chalcolithic / bronze age coming from the south caucasus. They probably have influenced a lot the steppe with their cultural package especially Metallurgy. Steppe or more presumably western siberia would influence both Caucasus ( meaning south caucasus too ) and western steppe ( pontic steppe ) with horse package ( even if it have clearly to be proven ). The only thing it left it's to understand why CHG pop in prehistoric Eastern / Northern Europe, is it have something to do with mtdna U4 ?

  22. #197
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    One possibility for Greek, Armenian, Albanian and maybe even Indo-Iranian is that at the time of the Catacomb even if they were mostly Steppe they get an input from Maikop bigger than the previous culture and that it changes most of their autosomal dna to be way more CHG than their ancestors but also maybe an origin into the creation of the Satem language. Armenians shows the perfect exemple of that possibility full R1b-Z2103 with a satem language.
    Maciamo has made a great thread on satem and centum, which seems entirely foolproof, except for some speculation on the Anatolians which seems unlikely, yet to me every hypothesis seems unlikely, and one of them is probably true. EDIT: I change my mind every time I think about this due to the spread of the chariot.

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...pean-languages

  23. #198
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree FriendsRecommendation Second Class25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,504
    Points
    28,134
    Level
    51
    Points: 28,134, Level: 51
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 516
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Do these results support the hypothesis of R1b moving from Anatolia through the Caucasus and taking CHG women, and then further moving up and taking some EHG women, with the Kura-Araxes expansion resulting in mainly J2 taking the R1b women (yeah, I know, Y DNA is only found in men) from the stage of R1b taking women in the Caucasus?

    Because that's what I think happened. It could be the other way round, with K-A forcing the R1b guys upwards instead of just expanding from the power vacuum left by R1b moving upwards.

    I could also be completely wrong, but I'm just trying to model in two things I see as very likely: R1b coming from (Eastern) Anatolia, and the Kura-Araxes picking up R1b-like ancestry.

    I think people didn't notice here the R1b found in Maykop might actually be a late Steppe arrival in the culture. Probably coming to Maykop after Steppe Indo European culture was formed.

    Imo it went this way Northwest Iran/Leyla Tepe => North Caucasus => Steppe=> back to Maykop.

    Also keep in mind folks no R1b found in Hittites so far. Hittites G2a and J1 more similar to Maykop than Yamnaya.

  24. #199
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree FriendsRecommendation Second Class25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,504
    Points
    28,134
    Level
    51
    Points: 28,134, Level: 51
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 516
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    it would seem that the R1b you mentioned came via the north caucasus on the black sea side as none appear with the kurds who came to eastern turkey via Gilan province south caspian sea area
    local anomaly. The samples are from the Kordestan province. A region known to have been the capital of the Royal Scythians in Western Asia with their capital City of Saqqez.

    Kurds from Kirmashan and Urmiya are heavy in R1b.

  25. #200
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree FriendsRecommendation Second Class25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,504
    Points
    28,134
    Level
    51
    Points: 28,134, Level: 51
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 516
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Yes i know that Davidski have say that there would be EEF in steppe between a long time. Why change EEF for ANF so ? because as far as i know their ANF is the same to south caucasus, so why not say EEF = ANF + WHG ? For the graph its all over the topic, the green component ( CHG ? ) pop in Motala.

    Because EEF = ANF. The samples EEF were modeled after (Stuttgart) were basically 95% ANF + 5% WHG.

Page 8 of 25 FirstFirst ... 67891018 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •