Ancient genomes from Caucasus inc. Maykop

That's all good but it seems that words for copper exists in PIE and later bronze,that was the point.The word "copper" however is not shared by IE speakers,Latin is "aenus" for copper and bronze.
That related words though, often don't mean 'copper' or 'bronze', therefore the reconstructed meaning should be 'metal'.

In Greek there is also a word ασήμι ('silver'). Compare Kurdish asin / hesin (“iron”) and Middle Persian asēm, (“silver”).

They don't include the Greek word in the words which are said that derive from *h₂éyos / *áyos

But if a relationship really exists, in Greek there are data that point to an original meaning 'raw metal' (literally 'formless')

There isn't a widely spread word that means 'bronze'. Some expansions were before the Bronze Age, imo but then I don't know how the words that derived from h2erg and mean silver are explained. Words that derive from h2erg and also mean 'silver'* exist in Celtic, Italic (attested in many dialects), Greek and Indo-Iranian. Also in Armenian, but in Armenian at least some say the word is a loan as far as I understand.

*Though in some languages that is less clear. For example in Sanskrit the word arjuna also meant gold. It also has meanings like 'clear' or 'shape'.
I think it could be supported that the word originally referred to processed metals in general.
 
That related words though, often don't mean 'copper' or 'bronze', therefore the reconstructed meaning should be 'metal'.

In Greek there is also a word ασήμι ('silver'). Compare Kurdish asin / hesin (“iron”) and Middle Persian asēm, (“silver”).

They don't include the Greek word in the words which are said that derive from *h₂éyos / *áyos

But if a relationship really exists, in Greek there are data that point to an original meaning 'raw metal' (literally 'formless')

There isn't a widely spread word that means 'bronze'. Some expansions were before the Bronze Age, imo but then I don't know how the words that derived from h2erg and mean silver are explained. Words that derive from h2erg and also mean 'silver'* exist in Celtic, Italic (attested in many dialects), Greek and Indo-Iranian. Also in Armenian, but in Armenian at least some say the word is a loan as far as I understand.

*Though in some languages that is less clear. For example in Sanskrit the word arjuna also meant gold. It also has meanings like 'clear' or 'shape'.
I think it could be supported that the word originally referred to processed metals in general.

You can add this also:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hekur
 
Maybe relevant:

In Gheg Albanian "me hekë (heq in Tosk)" means "to remove/pull out" but can also be used "to suffer"

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/heq#Albanian


The suffix "-ur" in Albanian is past participle similar to the "-ed" as in "finished" in English.

So "hekur" which means Metal/Iron in Albanian is directly related to "hekë" which means "remove" but also is
very specifically connected to "pulling out."

Hekur = "Pulled out"
Hekuri = "The Pulled out"
 

(I'm separating my post in two parts, the second is more speculative)

Yes. If the word is related, along with the Germanic ones, where we have reconstructed words thought to have meant 'type of metal', also 'genuine, pure' and evidence from Sanskrit, where as I said, apart from 'silver' meanings like 'gold', 'clear' or 'shape' etc are attested and Celtic where also the meaning 'money' is attested etc

We can say that the original meaning of the root wasn't 'silver' and likely not exactly 'white' either. Concerning the words which are said that derive from *h[SUB]2[/SUB]erg and came to be associated with metals at least, I personally consider an original meaning 'processed metal' likely.

Also linguists reconstruct roots like *reyǵ-(stretch tight, bind) and *h₃reǵ-(straighten), from the second we have words that acquired meanings like Sanskrit ṛjú, (just, right), or 'law'/'order' in Celtic dialects.
Latin rigo, which has meanings like 'lead, convey' etc but also 'irrigate, wet, moisten etc' is thought to have descended from one of those roots.

>>>

One blogger in Greece has supported that Greek word Argos descended from a root *Hreǵ- / *h[SUB]2[/SUB]reǵ-, and that it was associated with irrigated plains.
Albanian has a word rjedh, associated with a Proto-Indo-European *Hreǵ- ('flow') by some and have compared it to Celtic hydronyms like Rodanos.

The meaning 'flow' could have had theoretically something to do with the process of smelting. I think it is evident but some similarities can be coincidental.

 
Yesterday i looked for words for metals among IE and it seems that it was spoken in copper age;

Many are taken from wiktionary including opinions of authors,with some words added from me;

Proto-Slavic "želězo"(iron) Cognate with Lithuanian geležìs, Latvian dzèlzs and Old Prussian gelso.Has been connected with Ancient Greek χαλκός (khalkós, “ore, copper, bronze”), but the connection cannot be established in terms of regular phonetic correspondences. However, both could be independent loanwords from a common eastern source, whence also possibly Hittite [script needed] ((ḫ)apalki, “iron”).

Latin "aenus" is the only word in Proto-Indo-European that unequivocally refers to a metal,this word refers to copper (and bronze), and the Proto-Indo-European word refers with absolute certainty to one of these metals, or both. There is no word for iron and the words for gold and silver seem to mean ”that which shines”, or ”the golden” and ”the silvery”, respectively.This shows that the Indo-European language was spoken during a time when copper was used.

Slavic -"med"(copper),most likely connected with Germanic-"smith"(craftsman) from IE
*(s)mēy(H)- (“to cut, hew”). Ancient Greek-σμίλη "smī́lē"(tool for cutting,carving),Celtic-mēnis (ore,metal,mine).

Persian- "mes"(copper) in my opinion is also connected to above.

Itself the word "metal" come from Greek but seem connected to me.


I think that Proto-IE started expanding in early copper age (Chalcolithic,Eneolithic)



Very interesting. It seems to confirm my observations with these latest studies, about the development of PIE (including its seemingly steppe-derived daughter branches) being very early, not an Early Bronze Age thing, and probably involving an early expansion from one common homeland already from somewhere in or near the Pontic-Caspian region (if not in the steppes per se, at least in the North Caucasus or maybe the Azerbaijani coastal steppe strip), as well as a much later expansion of Late PIE dialects already from the huge expanse of the steppes (maybe propelled by the spread of the Yamnaya horizon). Otherwise, I think we should expect a much more differentiated IE family (if it had divided into different languages even earlier, when CHG did not even exist in high proportions in the Pontic-Caspian steppe), or a much less differentiated IE family, if it had started to split into different dialects only after the Yamnaya people started to disperse.
 
Wasn't the Ezero culture steppe-free genetically? So even if they (the Hittites) came from Europe they had no steppe since the beginning...but i doubt that they came from the Balkans because if i'm not wrong - i didnt read the study -they are Near eastern genetically with no WHG (?)

P.S. Ezero culture was one of the possibilities mentioned by scholars about their origin, the other one was that they came from the Caucasus....

Utilizzando Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
Stop cherry picking from my posts. You only answer the parts you like, and elegantly leave the rest out.
I remember why i told you on AG i wouldn't reply you anymore. You seriously lack the theoretical knowledge to be able to discuss something that happened that long ago.

The last answer you will ever get from me in any forum:

A retreat. Fine with me. Mind you, you don't seem very keen on sharing archaeological knowledge.

Apart from half of their genetics, the whole culture, the animals, the way of living, the wheels, the metals and the tools of the steppe people descend from the populations south of the caucasus.

The first copper in Khvalynsk was found to be from the Balkans. Sheep bones in the steppe were found in herder cultures related to Cucuteni-Tripoli. The first kurgans were found in the Balkans. The oldest drawing of a wheeled vehicle is from TBR Poland. There is EEF in Yamnaya. So why didn't they leave any trace in late PIE?

Before the advent of the southerners, they were nothing but hunter gatherers.

Off course they copied everything. We see that kind of adaptation with WHG remnants such as Ertebolla wrt pig herding as well. Or Swifterband.

I simply have a hard time seeing why the southerners should have a hard time imposing their language upon a couple of small bands of primitive hunters.

You should have a hard time seeing female mediated language transmission to a patriarchal society.
 
Wasn't the Ezero culture steppe-free genetically? So even if they (the Hittites) came from Europe they had no steppe since the beginning...but i doubt that they came from the Balkans because if i'm not wrong - i didnt read the study -they are Near eastern genetically with no WHG (?)

P.S. Ezero culture was one of the possibilities mentioned by scholars about their origin, the other one was that they came from the Caucasus....

Utilizzando Tapatalk

From Mathieson:

Bronze Age (~3400-1100 BCE) individuals do have steppe-related ancestry (we estimate 30%; CI: 26-35%), with the highest proportions in the four latest Balkan Bronze Age individuals in our data (later than ~1700 BCE) and the least in earlier Bronze Age individuals (3400-2500 BCE;Figure 1D).

From the supplementary tables (XL sheet) one of the early Bronze Age samples is, Bul10, is assigned to the Ezero culture.
 
Ok, so they had some Steppe admixture, thanks..(unless it was the steppe-like admixture that Varna already had)

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5b/ec/3d/5bec3d1d31fabc844b0bc4c310ac54fc.png

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The Varna culture was succeeded by the copper age Kurgan builders of the Suvorovo culture, which occupied the same area. These people build Kurgans with zoomorphic scepters or maces as burial gifts, which Sredny Stog and Khvalynsk also had. David Anthony considers them horse heads, other think more various animals. Suvorovo is widely considered an offshoot of Sredny Stog. Mathieson did not sample Suvorovo, but the two copper age samples that show steppe admixture are from the copper age culture immediately preceding Suvorovo (Varna) and from a copper age cultures not very far from Suvorovo territory (Smyadovo).

I think they are Suvorovo samples.

David Anthony's theory of Anatolian was an early offshoot from the Steppe, from one of the precursors of Yamnaya: Sredny Stog. From Suvorovo then came early Bronze Age Ezero. This migrated to Turkish Thrace and migrated to Anatolia. I haven't heard from anyone that the data seem to confirm this theory. But it looks to me like it does.
 
The Varna culture was succeeded by the copper age Kurgan builders of the Suvorovo culture, which occupied the same area. These people build Kurgans with zoomorphic scepters or maces as burial gifts, which Sredny Stog and Khvalynsk also had. David Anthony considers them horse heads, other think more various animals. Suvorovo is widely considered an offshoot of Sredny Stog. Mathieson did not sample Suvorovo, but the two copper age samples that show steppe admixture are from the copper age culture immediately preceding Suvorovo (Varna) and from a copper age cultures not very far from Suvorovo territory (Smyadovo).

I think they are Suvorovo samples.

David Anthony's theory of Anatolian was an early offshoot from the Steppe, from one of the precursors of Yamnaya: Sredny Stog. From Suvorove came early Bronze Age Ezero. This migrated to Turkish Thrace and migrated to Anatolia. I haven't heard from anyone that the data seem to confirm this theory. But it looks to me like it does.

I'd be very interested to see papers documenting the archaeological trail from Ezero, or Suvorovo, for that matter, to Anatolia.
 
I'd be very interested to see papers documenting the archaeological trail from Ezero, or Suvorovo, for that matter, to Anatolia.

As I said, it's David Anthony's theory. I got it from books, he must have written more about it.

EDIT: So yeah, it might be interesting if someone started digging into the papers. But where to start?
 
Btw, there's a lot of talk about the Maykop but don't forget that Reich put the PIE homeland in his book to present day Iran or Armenia.
 
As I said, it's David Anthony's theory. I got it from books, he must have written more about it.

EDIT: So yeah, it might be interesting if someone started digging into the papers. But where to start?

hummm. Fed up with David Anthony to tell you the truth.

a. Boian and Gulmelnita (around 4600bc and related to Kum6) , rapidly mixed with Hamangia culture (from 5000bc) which was a related Anatolia people, as a differentiation of the others around and northwestern LBK, Starcevo type of people that were Early neolithic.

b. In the awake of the southern movement, we rapidly see first the formation of the Pre-Cucuteni by merging this incoming people and a LBK/Starcevo local substratum.... and Cucuteni-Trypolie was born. Whatever you think of Cucuteni-trypillian culture impact this is the common knowledge of it. the "leftovers" of this mixing from new arriving people (related to Kumtepe, Kum6 people) is also Varna culture in 4300bc.

c. First (thought of being) incoming "Steppe" eastern population is Cernovada culture which arrives at 4000bc, after the end of even Varna. Lets see if Cernovada doesn't turnout as GAC, with cultural "steppe" traits but no "steppe" aDna. most seem to believe Cernovada as steppe. that is fine.

d. Ezero Culture, as Usatovo, much later by 3300bc, if anything, were related more to Baden and GAC than anything else. Naturally also related to whatever remains from the later Cernovada (steppe?) layers and probable all others I mentioned before. Here you have the later 10% steppe seen in Mycenaeans. However, the key note is: At most Cernovada was the one related to steppe. And they, in spite of coming after some cataclysm that wiped the region, didn't really made much impact in the region.

e. There is no record of this millieu entering Anatolia.

So, epoch, what do you add to this?
 
This is all I know Anthony to have said about connections between Ezero and Anatolia.

"Beginning in about 3000 BC rich cultures emerged in the coastal steppes of the Crimea (the Kemi Oba culture) and the Dniester estuary northwest of the Black Sea (the Usatovo culture). They might have participated in seaborne trade along the Black Sea coast - artifact exchanges show that Usatovo, Kemi Oba, and late stages of the Maikop cultures were contemporary. Perhaps their trade goods even reached Troy I. A stone stele much like a Pit Grave marker was built into a wall at Troy I, and the Troy I ceramics were very much like those of the Baden and Ezero cultures in southeastern Europe (The stele is consistent with philological and mythological evidence that Troy was an outpost of Türkic settlement in Anatolia)."
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/btn_Archeology/DAnthonyBronzeAgeEn.htm

Sounds like trade to me, not evidence of a migration, and I don't think Anthony proposed it as such.

Also:
"Steppe herders, archaic Proto-Indo-European speakers, spread into the lower Danube valley about 4200-4000 BCE, either causing or taking advantage of the collapse of Old Europe.[37]According to Anthony, their languages "probably included archaic Proto-Indo-European dialects of the kind partly preserved later in Anatolian."[38] According to Anthony their descendants later moved into Anatolia, at an unknown time, but maybe as early as 3,000 BCE.[39] According to Anthony these herders, forming the Suvorovo-Novodanilovka complex,[note 3] probably were a chiefly elite from the Sredni Stog culture at the Dniepr valley.[41"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Horse,_the_Wheel,_and_Language

The references are to page 229 and 262 of the book if anyone has it.

As I remembered, it seems that Anthony uses a time frame of about 4200 BC for Pre-Anatolian, and speculates that the Suvorovo culture might have brought it to the Balkans. There's no proof of any kind proffered from what I remember.
He doesn't propose any particular culture for the movement into Anatolia that I remember, but maybe there's something on page 262.
 
This is all I know Anthony to have said about connections between Ezero and Anatolia.

"Beginning in about 3000 BC rich cultures emerged in the coastal steppes of the Crimea (the Kemi Oba culture) and the Dniester estuary northwest of the Black Sea (the Usatovo culture). They might have participated in seaborne trade along the Black Sea coast - artifact exchanges show that Usatovo, Kemi Oba, and late stages of the Maikop cultures were contemporary. Perhaps their trade goods even reached Troy I. A stone stele much like a Pit Grave marker was built into a wall at Troy I, and the Troy I ceramics were very much like those of the Baden and Ezero cultures in southeastern Europe (The stele is consistent with philological and mythological evidence that Troy was an outpost of Türkic settlement in Anatolia)."
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/btn_Archeology/DAnthonyBronzeAgeEn.htm

Sounds like trade to me, not evidence of a migration, and I don't think Anthony proposed it as such.

Also:
"Steppe herders, archaic Proto-Indo-European speakers, spread into the lower Danube valley about 4200-4000 BCE, either causing or taking advantage of the collapse of Old Europe.[37]According to Anthony, their languages "probably included archaic Proto-Indo-European dialects of the kind partly preserved later in Anatolian."[38] According to Anthony their descendants later moved into Anatolia, at an unknown time, but maybe as early as 3,000 BCE.[39] According to Anthony these herders, forming the Suvorovo-Novodanilovka complex,[note 3] probably were a chiefly elite from the Sredni Stog culture at the Dniepr valley.[41"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Horse,_the_Wheel,_and_Language

The references are to page 229 and 262 of the book if anyone has it.

As I remembered, it seems that Anthony uses a time frame of about 4200 BC for Pre-Anatolian, and speculates that the Suvorovo culture might have brought it to the Balkans. There's no proof of any kind proffered from what I remember.
He doesn't propose any particular culture for the movement into Anatolia that I remember, but maybe there's something on page 262.

Hm. Maybe I conjured it up myself from these two samples. I was citing from memory. Mind you, this route has another consequence: It would likely have left traces of another language in *all* Anatolian languages. I don't know if that is the case.

EDIT: A southern origin and movement into the Steppe would have likely left a huge trace in late PIE. According to Agamemnon on AG one of the reasons PIE is considered an original language is that it fits rules almost mathematically. That was a response on my question if PIE might have been a mixed language like Michif.
 
It is important to emphasize that at Ezero, the excavators Nikolai Merpert and Georgy Georgiev discovered a sequence of ceramics clearly ancestral to, and then contemporary with, those found in the Troy culture.

-- J.P. Mallory, In Search of the Indo-Europeans, p. 239.
 

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