Ancient genomes from Caucasus inc. Maykop

Those reviewers were delicious...

"Figure 2: On the right side, the color bar graphs for Yamnaya Samara and Yamnaya Kalmyk do not
show any orange color for Anatolian (or Early European) Farmer ancestry. The discovery of
Anatolian/Early European Farmer ancestry in these samples is one of the major findings of the study
but is not represented graphically in Figure 2, where these samples are represented graphically as
they were described previously, as a simple admixture of EHG and CHG/Iran. I realize that these
samples are in a column labeled Previously Published, but this is the only graphical representation of
these sample...."

Lindo, Lindo, lindo.
 
reviewer 2 is brutal...

" It’s good to point out that older Neolithic sites could be found in the northern flanks, but what you’re implying here is that Gorelik was wrong to specify a PPNB influence on the steppes (fine, I agree) and it really was an extension of the Georgian Shulaveri-Shomutepe culture going over the mountains (sites not yet found) that introduced domesticates to the steppes. Gorelik already dismissed that because of the absence of artifact parallels in the Azov steppes with Shulaveri-Shomutepe. Too complex to explain, too many speculative elements." ------ These guys are, bit by bit, introducing the Shulaverian hypothesis into the narrative... Its the "we knew all along" factor that is coming.


One note of explanation to the dumbass reviewer (sharp guy but not that knowledgeable).
the Shulaverian moving into steppe by end 6th millenium BC were the same stock that we see roaming, pastoral, in the western georgia plain. in fact Same life style that was in 2018 published by Andrea ricci regarding the shulaveri in Nagorno-Karabakh region and Azerbaijan steppes. Very light and almost transhumance...
 
so the R1b-Z2103 in 2.9 ka Armenia was probably a recent arrival, after 3.5 ka
where did they come from? late north caucasus?
 
....
one of replies from the authors to reviewers...

Reply: This statement is based on the hypothesis put forward by Mathieson et al. 2018: “An alternative hypothesis is that the homeland of Proto-Indo-European languages was in the Caucasus or in Iran. In this scenario, westward population movement contributed to the dispersal of Anatolian languages, and northward movement and mixture with EHG was responsible for the formation of a ‘Late Proto-Indo European’-speaking population associated with the Yamnaya complex. Although this scenario gains plausibility from our results, it remains possible that Indo-European languages were spread through southeastern Europe into Anatolia without large-scale population movement or admixture.”

See, what I always said about the "knew all along" phenomenon?-- Now its an hypothesis from Mathieson in 2018. The same Mathieson that used to comment on Eurogenes where I was defending my Shulaverian Hypothesis in endless comments since early 2016 has put forward is brilliant hypothesis in 2018!!! - Love it, I love it. :)
 
Olympus Mons said:
....
one of replies from the authors to reviewers...

Reply: This statement is based on the hypothesis put forward by Mathieson et al. 2018: “An alternative hypothesis is that the homeland of Proto-Indo-European languages was in the Caucasus or in Iran. In this scenario, westward population movement contributed to the dispersal of Anatolian languages, and northward movement and mixture with EHG was responsible for the formation of a ‘Late Proto-Indo European’-speaking population associated with the Yamnaya complex. Although this scenario gains plausibility from our results, it remains possible that Indo-European languages were spread through southeastern Europe into Anatolia without large-scale population movement or admixture.”

See, what I always said about the "knew all along" phenomenon?-- Now its an hypothesis from Mathieson in 2018. The same Mathieson that used to comment on Eurogenes where I was defending my Shulaverian Hypothesis in endless comments since early 2016 has put forward is brilliant hypothesis in 2018!!! - Love it, I love it. :)
Click to expand...

What I don't get is that, from the data shown so far, this would mean a spread of PIE with typical Caucasian females. That just cannot be true.

The question is, where did M269 come from? It seems to have introduced itself between Khvalynsk and Yamnaya (from somewhere else, where it would have been for much longer), but we don't have M269 in ChL Caucasus.
 
ToBeOrNotToBe said:
What I don't get is that, from the data shown so far, this would mean a spread of PIE with typical Caucasian females. That just cannot be true.

The question is, where did M269 come from? It seems to have introduced itself between Khvalynsk and Yamnaya (from somewhere else, where it would have been for much longer), but we don't have M269 in ChL Caucasus.
Click to expand...

What you don't have is: Caucasus NEOLITHIC - do think that is a coincidence?
The place where Shulaveri lived was a wastland for a couple centuries before you see Sioni arriving. Let alone a thousand years later the Kura-Araxes. What is the problem people have with time?
 
ToBeOrNotToBe said:
What I don't get is that, from the data shown so far, this would mean a spread of PIE with typical Caucasian females. That just cannot be true.

The question is, where did M269 come from? It seems to have introduced itself between Khvalynsk and Yamnaya (from somewhere else, where it would have been for much longer), but we don't have M269 in ChL Caucasus.
Click to expand...

this exchange of females must have happened around 7 ka, early khvalynsk
 
bicicleur said:
this exchange of females must have happened around 7 ka, early khvalynsk
Click to expand...

Yes. We are back to hordes of amazon women roaming into new lands and having babies with local men. Specially these in particular that manage to cross alone one of the most dificult mountain ranges to cross. And all by themselves. Remarkable. ;)
 
bicicleur said:
this exchange of females must have happened around 7 ka, early khvalynsk
Click to expand...

The paternalistic culture of PIE didn't come from women, I refuse to accept that. But besides, there was an extra addition of CHG to Khvalynsk that also seems to have brought M269.
 
Olympus Mons said:
What you don't have is: Caucasus NEOLITHIC - do think that is a coincidence?
The place where Shulaveri lived was a wastland for a couple centuries before you see Sioni arriving. Let alone a thousand years later the Kura-Araxes. What is the problem people have with time?
Click to expand...

Do we have samples from the Western Caspian (i.e. Azerbaijan)? If we have samples spanning the entire Caucasus with no M269, and knowing the Steppe groups to the immediate North had no M269, where the hell does that leave M269?
 
Olympus Mons said:
Yes. We are back to hordes of amazon women roaming into new lands and having babies with local men. Specially these in particular that manage to cross alone one of the most dificult mountain ranges to cross. And all by themselves. Remarkable. ;)
Click to expand...

beside your Amazonian women phantasies, explain to me how EHG got admixed with CHG
mtDNA for both the steppe and Caucasus cluster are the same, and different from previous (>7ka) EHG samples
Y-DNA between steppe and Caucasus cluster is different, with steppe cluster typical EHG Y-DNA

the authors themselves say the Caucasus Mountains didn't form a boundary
 
I'll point out that the Y-DNA in Tel Shadud's sample is there. It's an R1b.
 
bicicleur said:
beside your Amazonian women phantasies, explain to me how EHG got admixed with CHG
mtDNA for both the steppe and Caucasus cluster are the same, and different from previous (>7ka) EHG samples
Y-DNA between steppe and Caucasus cluster is different, with steppe cluster typical EHG Y-DNA

the authors themselves say the Caucasus Mountains didn't form a boundary
Click to expand...

I get confused, worried, and ? - Read the replies from authors to reviewers!

How they got admixed?

  • at least as early as by 5500BC some shulaverian were starting to pour into north Caucasus (that is the exchange with reviewer 2).
  • There might be or not be already a CHG population that had least or not Iran/CHG in Western Georgia or even north Caucasus that Shulaveri were interacting with by mid 6th M BC..
  • Shulaverian upon 6.9K mystery and magical disappearance event moved to kuban river and started to move into steppe, even to make early Meshoko. God knows where some of them were at that point…

Now. Break. Stop. Pause, sleep, Idle...
A century goes by, tic.tac, two centuries, tic tac, three centuries…. Maybe more. Wake up!!!


  • Now, the Wang at all starts (!). Most of what they are reporting is 1000 years later. Even Mesohko, it is known that the population that made the first settlements were shortly after substitute by another population.

In this playful way, not intent to piss you off, I am repeating what I have been saying. Reich, Haak , Krauser, Mathieson, etc… they have the samples for the first part and there is an “embargo” for them.
First they need to clean the slate because not long ago they were the ones pushing the Steppe as the Urheimat of this universe and the next. So they need time. Now it’s the brilliant Iain Mathieson having this new hypothesis in 2018. Leave it a couple more months and they all will be the embattle resistants that are pushing for a south Caucasus theory and being harassed by everyone….

That is how its done.
 
Alyan said:
I'll point out that the Y-DNA in Tel Shadud's sample is there. It's an R1b.
Click to expand...

No subclades known?

What I am saying next is just a coincidence, ok? Not intented to mean nothing....
But that place is 13 miles from Tel Tsaf. And tel tsaf is important in the shulaverian hypothesis... slide 4600BC. (https://shulaverianhypothesis.blogs.sapo.pt/)
 
Why would Shomu be a much better fit for Yamnaya than Kura Araxes etc. ? It doesn't make sense.

Note that the southern ancestry is inferred to have split off prior to the formation of CHG. Here's betting that steppe North Caucasians don't have any ancestry from the Transcaucasus region.
 
If PIE was an ANE language it would have been agglutinative. All the languages of North Eurasia are agglutinative. PIE was born somewhere very close / around of Caucasus.
 
If R1b came from Armenia with women in the Neolithic ( a big scale migration ). How is EHG component dominant in the Steppe? The few U5a and U4 cannot explain that almost perfect 50/50 EHG/CHG in Steppe. Also Dolmen BA doesn't have any Iran_Neo or Iran_Chl, only CHG and Anatolia_Chl, wich means Iran ancestry wasn't that predominant in the Caucasus before the Chalcolithic.
 
Olympus Mons said:
No subclades known?

What I am saying next is just a coincidence, ok? Not intented to mean nothing....
But that place is 13 miles from Tel Tsaf. And tel tsaf is important in the shulaverian hypothesis... slide 4600BC. (https://shulaverianhypothesis.blogs.sapo.pt/)
Click to expand...

The call might be wrong, i also saw on Anthrogenica that they have an R1b sample from Tanzania, wich is odd.
 
ToBeOrNotToBe said:
The paternalistic culture of PIE didn't come from women, I refuse to accept that. But besides, there was an extra addition of CHG to Khvalynsk that also seems to have brought M269.
Click to expand...

The CHG ancestry found in Khvalynsk was on the Q1a individual, ironically.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

This thread has been viewed 240140 times.

Back
Top