Ancient genomes from Caucasus inc. Maykop

It's also quite noticable that more we have new papers on Yamnaya or prehistoric Steppe, more the CHG / Iran ancestry seems to take importance, and that's actually weird. The reason is, theres is not much difference in the time frame of the samples, but if you put random Yamnaya samples in one paper, and in another papers all samples with the highest Caucasus ancestry, you obviously gonna create a big bias in the mind of the people who read those. In this paper, some Yamnaya samples the CHG/Iran ancestry is at almost 80%, and that's sound pretty weird too. Some Corded Ware samples have almost 60% of CHG/Iran ancestry and that can only happened with a big scale migration just like EEF in the Balkans and Iberia. But it cannot happened after the Neolithic because Chalcolithic South Caucasus shows in Areni-1 the L1a individuals that were related to the ancestors of Maikop. Now we are clearly into an South Caucasus Neolithic demic migration hypothesis, were Iran farmers have replaced EHG HG's but ironically with a very local y-dna lineage.
 
halfalp said:
The CHG ancestry found in Khvalynsk was on the Q1a individual, ironically.
Click to expand...

what other DNA from the Pontic steppe prior to 6.5 ka do we have besides Khvalynsk?
Khvalynsk is at the northern edge of the Pontic steppe

Q1a2 brought in Siberian ancestry
 
for Greek and Armenian language I see 2 possible scenarios :

1/ the 4.8-3.7 ka North Caucasus were the Greco-Armenian speakers

2/ the 4.8-3.7 ka North Caucasus were the Proto-Armenian speakers and the Catacomb were the Proto-Greek speakers
 
... The published paper is full of novelties over the preprint or added explanation by the authors. however you guys just move over it as if nothing changed. Nothing to see. As long as each of you is able to keep the mantra its ok. ... And I am the one accused of being the one that only talks about its prefered pet theory... right.
 
Just to make it clear how far Wang et al went in the direction of my shulaverian Hypothesis


This is in accordance with the Neolithization of the Caucasus (ie The Shulaveri-Shomu), which had started in the flood plains of South Caucasian rivers (ie Kura and araxes river where shulaveri lived) in the 6th millennium BCE (yes, 6000bc to 5000BC when Shulaveri were there), from where it spread across to the West/Northwest (exactly like the shulaverian hypothesis says, the ones that went west and the ones into kuban river and the steppe) during the following millennium (yes, from 4900BC to 4000BC) . It remains unclear whether the local CHG ancestry profile (Kotias Klde and Satsurblia in today’s Georgia) was also present in the North Caucasus region before the Neolithic. However, if we take the CHG ancestry as a local baseline and the oldest Eneolithic Caucasus individuals from our transect as a proxy for the local Late Neolithic ancestry, we notice a substantial increase in AF ancestry. This in all likelihood reflects the process of Neolithization, which also brought this type of ancestry to Europe. As a consequence, it is possible that Neolithic groups could have reached the northern foothills earlier35 (Supplementary Note 1). Hence, additional sampling from older individuals would be desirable to fill this temporal and spatial gap (yes, as if reich and Krauser do not have those samples for a while...).

From this point on, on the next published papers, it will start to appear the mentions to, as "the hypothesis of Ian Mathieson in 2018" and "as we had anticipated in Wang et al"

This is how it is done. Its just fun to watch.
 
wasn't there J in mesolithic Karelia?
crossing the Caucasus was done all the time
even in Mesolithic times
but the formation of steppe DNA was ca 7 ka
 
Interestingly, and I don't think anybody has actually mentioned this somehow, but the first North Caucasian kurgans (in the Wang paper) are seen with Steppe individuals (Progress and Vonyuchka) around 4200 BCE, with the typical Caucasians (e.g. Y DNA J etc.) joining in the trend at least 400 years later (i.e. when Maykop begins). So, despite older kurgans in the South Caucasus and perhaps with deeper origins in Mesopotamia, it appears that kurgan burials were never spread from "farmers" to Steppe folk.

What's more, it seems like this is a link to Leyla Tepe, which was earlier than Maykop and had kurgans at exactly the same time Progress and Vonyuchka did (those barely North Caucasian individuals Davidski is raving about as proof against a Southern origin of IE).

The Soyugbulag kurgans of Leyla Tepe are located in the Kaspi municipality. which is immediately to the South of Ossetia, where Progress and Vonyuchka were found, and corresponding with this map showing the genetic barrier between North and South that is the Caucasus:

caucasus-genetic-barrier.jpg


This parting is exactly where the Leyla Tepe kurgans were found, and where the first North Caucasian kurgans (those of Progress and Vonyuchka) were also found.
 
Admittedly perhaps (definitely) very speculatively, looking at the etymology of the Ossetian god of metallurgy (Kurdalaegon) can give extra circumstantial information. Etymologically, this comes from Kurd + Alae + Waergon: Kurd coming from "to heat/to incandesce", Alae ultimately coming from "Aryan" (later "Alan"), and Waergon apparently being a variant name of Kurdalaegon, and corresponding to the word for wolf, "waerg". This wolf "waerg" derivation is supposedly comparable to the etymology of the Roman god Vulcan, from the Latin "Vulcanus", a word originally of Etruscan origin via one name for their blacksmith god, "Velchans". This too has been linked with the Minoan god of metallurgy, "Velchanos" (and I've previously linked both the Etruscans and Minoans to a post-Kura Araxes expansion of Anatolian warlike elites across the Aegean and beyond).

Ossetian is an Iranian language, but it's completely possible and seemingly likely that at the very least the variant name of the god (Waergon) has this connection predating the Iranian incursions, and even if it doesn't it could be a pan-IE thing rather than a Kura-Araxes thing. The other variant, Kurdalaegon, seems to have a clearer meaning in (kurd smith+ on of the family+ Alaeg name of one of the Nartic families), so perhaps there is no link there (but Waergon to Vulcan to Velchans to Velchanos clearly has a link besides all being blacksmith gods of metallurgy, no need to be a professional linguist).
 
bicicleur said:
what other DNA from the Pontic steppe prior to 6.5 ka do we have besides Khvalynsk?
Khvalynsk is at the northern edge of the Pontic steppe

Q1a2 brought in Siberian ancestry
Click to expand...

We have Samara and Sidelkino ( wich is not technically on the steppe i think ).
 
ToBeOrNotToBe said:
Interestingly, and I don't think anybody has actually mentioned this somehow, but the first North Caucasian kurgans (in the Wang paper) are seen with Steppe individuals (Progress and Vonyuchka) around 4200 BCE, with the typical Caucasians (e.g. Y DNA J etc.) joining in the trend at least 400 years later (i.e. when Maykop begins).

What's more, it seems like this is a link to Leyla Tepe, which was earlier than Maykop and had kurgans at exactly the same time Progress and Vonyuchka did (those barely North Caucasian individuals Davidski is raving about as proof against a Southern origin of IE).

The Soyugbulag kurgans of Leyla Tepe are located in the Kaspi municipality. which is immediately to the South of Ossetia, where Progress and Vonyuchka were found, and corresponding with this map showing the genetic barrier between North and South that is the Caucasus:

caucasus-genetic-barrier.jpg


This parting is exactly where the Leyla Tepe kurgans were found, and where the first North Caucasian kurgans (those of Progress and Vonyuchka) were also found.
Click to expand...

The Progress individuals were R-V1636. Also the two samples from Velikent wich is Daghestan ( were Leyla-Tepe should have bring R1b or R1a according to some ) were J-Z1842.
 
halfalp said:
The Progress individuals were R-V1636.
Click to expand...

I know, a shame really, but the modern distribution anyway suggests an origin of V1636 South of the Caucasus. V1636 could have just moved up as a minority with Z2103 - there's only been two Y DNA samples (both V1636) from these early Steppe Eneolithic kurgans and even that is perhaps just one line.

See here:

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=47477

and here:

Complementaryto the southern Eneolithic component, a northern component started to expand between 4300and 4100 calBCE manifested in low burial mounds with inhumations densely packed in brightred ochre. Burial sites of this type, like the investigated sites of Progress and Vonyuchka, arefound in the Don-Caspian steppe12, but they are related to a much larger supra-regional networklinking elites of the steppe zone between the Balkans and the Caspian Sea18. These groupsintroduced the so-called kurgan, a specific type of burial monument, which soon spread acrossthe entire steppe zone.
 
bicicleur said:
wasn't there J in mesolithic Karelia?
crossing the Caucasus was done all the time
even in Mesolithic times
but the formation of steppe DNA was ca 7 ka
Click to expand...

Yes, there was, and in the latest papers some of the EHG samples are close to 20% CHG.

The authors themselves posit two possibilities:

1) A long standing cline perhaps from the Paleolithic of EHG/CHG running north/south

2) A Neolithic era migration from the south

They just need the samples, if they don't already have them, to nail it down.

Of course, it might be both, as the ancient J in Karelia would show.

The language issue is separate. Would the Neolithic be too early for even a proto-PIE?

Then there's the yDna issue. Was the exchange always female exchange between the two groups?
 
Wasn't the Kura Araxes guy with R1b-V1636 the only ancient Armenian without EHG ancestry? What happened there :unsure:
 
markod said:
Wasn't the Kura Araxes guy with R1b-V1636 the only ancient Armenian without EHG ancestry? What happened there :unsure:
Click to expand...

Well, after a couple of hundred years the autosomal trace might have disappeared, I suppose.

On the other hand, Maciamo has for years maintained that R1b people moved south of the Caucasus, picked up different dna, and then moved back north.
 
Olympus Mons said:
Just to make it clear how far Wang et al went in the direction of my shulaverian Hypothesis


This is in accordance with the Neolithization of the Caucasus (ie The Shulaveri-Shomu), which had started in the flood plains of South Caucasian rivers (ie Kura and araxes river where shulaveri lived) in the 6th millennium BCE (yes, 6000bc to 5000BC when Shulaveri were there), from where it spread across to the West/Northwest (exactly like the shulaverian hypothesis says, the ones that went west and the ones into kuban river and the steppe) during the following millennium (yes, from 4900BC to 4000BC) . It remains unclear whether the local CHG ancestry profile (Kotias Klde and Satsurblia in today’s Georgia) was also present in the North Caucasus region before the Neolithic. However, if we take the CHG ancestry as a local baseline and the oldest Eneolithic Caucasus individuals from our transect as a proxy for the local Late Neolithic ancestry, we notice a substantial increase in AF ancestry. This in all likelihood reflects the process of Neolithization, which also brought this type of ancestry to Europe. As a consequence, it is possible that Neolithic groups could have reached the northern foothills earlier35 (Supplementary Note 1). Hence, additional sampling from older individuals would be desirable to fill this temporal and spatial gap (yes, as if reich and Krauser do not have those samples for a while...).

From this point on, on the next published papers, it will start to appear the mentions to, as "the hypothesis of Ian Mathieson in 2018" and "as we had anticipated in Wang et al"

This is how it is done. Its just fun to watch.
Click to expand...

Oh come on please... Back in 2016 you saw that Yamnaya was EHG + CHG, you thought " what is the link? " then you googled Caucasus Neolithic and Shulaveri-Shomu was the absolute only result. You didn't create a whole hypothesis that make sense, you just filled the gap with what could be the best proxy. Nobody ever say that Shulaveri-Shomu didn't participate to the creation of the Steppe package, people are calling you out for always trying to put R1b-M269 while absolutely nothing is giving you credit. That you noticed that Shulaveri-Shomu had Wine and that IE cultures have a strong Wine symbolism, doesn't give you any credit. Stop always bashing others, and wait for your godamn Shulaveri paper in silence.
 
markod said:
Wasn't the Kura Araxes guy with R1b-V1636 the only ancient Armenian without EHG ancestry? What happened there :unsure:
Click to expand...

So how this lineage that apparently wasn't that interesting is now turning to become interesting? Were is even V1636 in the phylogeny tree, isn't the brother of P297?
 
Angela said:
Yes, there was, and in the latest papers some of the EHG samples are close to 20% CHG.

The authors themselves posit two possibilities:

1) A long standing cline perhaps from the Paleolithic of EHG/CHG running north/south

2) A Neolithic era migration from the south

They just need the samples, if they don't already have them, to nail it down.

Of course, it might be both, as the ancient J in Karelia would show.

The language issue is separate. Would the Neolithic be too early for even a proto-PIE?

Then there's the yDna issue. Was the exchange always female exchange between the two groups?
Click to expand...

I think by far the best hypothesis is that of a Zarzian expansion from the Zagros to the Urals via the East side of the Caspian (there's an archaeological trail from the spread of distinctive geometric microliths from the Zagros across Iran and up through the -stans by the Caspian until the Urals). From the Urals, pottery would be spread Westwards via the Elshan culture - the main haplogroups being R1a-M198 and potentially R1b-P297 as well as a bit of Mesolithic Q of some variety (Q1a? I don't really pay much attention to Q). Traces of Caucasian J would have been picked up from their Paleolithic Zagrosian origin, as well as a bit of CHG, which seemingly definitely made a contribution to EHG. This also explains why basal R1a and R1b appear (very strongly) to be Iranian.
 
halfalp said:
So how this lineage that apparently wasn't that interesting is now turning to become interesting? Were is even V1636 in the phylogeny tree, isn't the brother of P297?
Click to expand...

I didn't know those samples belonged to V1636. It's probably still not very interesting because it was very unsuccesful.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

This thread has been viewed 240643 times.

Back
Top