Ancient genomes from Caucasus inc. Maykop

[halfalp]

Btw, were did you see that Vonyuchka was y-dna J? ToBeOrNotToBe?

 

[halfalp]

I didn't know those samples belonged to V1636. It's probably still not very interesting because it was very unsuccesful.

They might not be dominant nowadays but were maybe very important in the genesis of PIE.

 

[markod]

They might not be dominant nowadays but were maybe very important in the genesis of PIE.

But how do we know that unless it turns up in the Mycenaean shaft graves or something?

Btw does anyone know what the earliest confirmed R1B-M269 sample is?

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

So how this lineage that apparently wasn't that interesting is now turning to become interesting? Were is even V1636 in the phylogeny tree, isn't the brother of P297?

Yeah, it's the brother of P297. In my view, R1a/b diversified around Iran, with R1b-L754 pre-V88 moving into Europe as part of the Epigravettian. As mentioned, I think specific subclades of R1b and R1a spread from Iran to the Urals, before heading West with the introduction of pottery into Eastern Europe.

According to Bernard Sergent the lithic assemblage of the first Kurgan culture in Ukraine (Sredni Stog II), which originated from the Volga and South Urals, recalls that of the Mesolithic-Neolithic sites to the east of the Caspian sea, Dam Dam Chesme II and the cave of Djebel.[27]He places the roots of the Gimbutas' Kurgan cradle of Indo-Europeans in a more southern cradle, and adds that the Djebel material is related to a Paleolithic material of Northwestern Iran, the Zarzian culture, dated 10000–8500 BC, and in the more ancient Kebarian of the Near East. He concludes that more than 10,000 years ago the Indo-Europeans were a small people grammatically, phonetically and lexically close to Semitic-Hamitic populations of the Near East.[28]





Further north still, in the southern Ural Mountains, the Mesolithic culture that
developed during the 11th Millennium BP clearly derived from Iran (Vasiliev et al, 1996),
based on similarity in microlithic technology and also in the fact that sheep and cattle
arrived at an early date. This culture then spread both east and west. In the west it has to
be assumed that the 10th Millennium BP Yelshanian culture of the Volga steppe,
previously described as Neolithic, developed from it, although the point was made that the description ‘Neolithic’ really only refers to the people’s use of pottery and the presence of some domesticated animals. At the site of Mullino to the west of the Urals,
the earliest Mesolithic layers have been dated to 8.5-8.3ky BP (Matyushin, 1986), and
this is followed by a 300-500 year gap before the first true Neolithic culture appears.
Matyushin (1986) dates the first true Neolithic culture of the Volga steppe to around
7.6ky BP. He makes the point that there are anthropological affinities between the
Neolithic people of Mullino and those of the Mediterranean and the Middle East,
contrasting with the broad-faced Russians of the Mesolithic.
Thus the picture would appear to be that of a northward movement of Iran-derived
culture right at the start of the Holocene, developing into the 11th Millennium BP
Mesolithic cultures of the southern Urals, the Yelshanian culture of the steppe and the
earliest occupation levels at Mullino. The occupational gap at Mullino is consistent with a
widespread disaster having occurred in about 8.2ky BP, and the progress of subsequent
Neolithic culture is consistent with a re-colonisation of low-lying areas from a survivor
population in the southern Urals.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

But how do we know that unless it turns up in the Mycenaean shaft graves or something?

Btw does anyone know what the earliest confirmed R1B-M269 sample is?

I think ATP3 in Spain funnily enough - either that or Yamnaya. We definitely don't have M269 on the Steppe before Yamnaya.

EDIT: It's ATP3, though obviously Yamnayan Z2103 doesn't descend from it (but L51 on the other hand... (not ATP3 as that's too late, but perhaps when copper first arrived in Iberia))

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Btw, were did you see that Vonyuchka was y-dna J? ToBeOrNotToBe?

I never said that...

 

[markod]

I think ATP3 in Spain funnily enough - either that or Yamnaya. We definitely don't have M269 on the Steppe before Yamnaya.
EDIT: It's ATP3, though obviously Yamnayan Z2103 doesn't descend from it (but L51 on the other hand... (not ATP3 as that's too late, but perhaps when copper first arrived in Iberia))

Lol, I wasn't that interested in R1b so I'd always assumed there were M269s in Khvalynsk or some other early steppe culture.
M269 might as well have come from the moon in that case. We need samples from other places, not same old Transcaucasus/PC steppe/Zagros.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Yeah pretty sure. Arame did a lot of tests with those. EHG is there in Chl. disappears in Eba. and appears again in Mlba. .

See his posts here: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...atolia-was-6000-5000-ybp-(4000-3000-BC)/page4

Hmm, interesting. I'd expect some pseudo-EHG from ANE + something WHG-like in Zarzian territory (as I think R1a and R1b mostly diversified around the Northern Zagros; plus, I think EHG has some Iran_Meso without Basal Eurasian in it), but not sure why it completely disappears with Kura-Araxes.

Apparently though (from Lazaridis):

Armenia ChL = c. 18% EHG, 50% IRAN N, 17% Levant N, 14% WHG
Kura Araxes = c. 12% EHG, , 58% IRAN N, 14% Levant N, 16% WHG
Armenia MLBA = c. 22% EHG, 53% IRAN N, 11% Levant N, 13% WHG

 

[markod]

Hmm, interesting. I'd expect some pseudo-EHG from ANE + something WHG-like in Zarzian territory (as I think R1a and R1b mostly diversified around the Northern Zagros; plus, I think EHG has some Iran_Meso without Basal Eurasian in it), but not sure why it completely disappears with Kura-Araxes.

Apparently though (from Lazaridis):

Armenia ChL = c. 18% EHG, 50% IRAN N, 17% Levant N, 14% WHG
Kura Araxes = c. 12% EHG, , 58% IRAN N, 14% Levant N, 16% WHG
Armenia MLBA = c. 22% EHG, 53% IRAN N, 11% Levant N, 13% WHG

That's what happens when you don't include CHG when modelling Caucasus samples.

 

[halfalp]

I never said that...

So i didn't understand well this sentence " Steppe individuals (Progress and Vonyuchka) around 4200 BCE, with the typical Caucasians (e.g. Y DNA J etc.) "

 

[halfalp]

Yeah, it's the brother of P297. In my view, R1a/b diversified around Iran, with R1b-L754 pre-V88 moving into Europe as part of the Epigravettian. As mentioned, I think specific subclades of R1b and R1a spread from Iran to the Urals, before heading West with the introduction of pottery into Eastern Europe.

According to Bernard Sergent the lithic assemblage of the first Kurgan culture in Ukraine (Sredni Stog II), which originated from the Volga and South Urals, recalls that of the Mesolithic-Neolithic sites to the east of the Caspian sea, Dam Dam Chesme II and the cave of Djebel.[27]He places the roots of the Gimbutas' Kurgan cradle of Indo-Europeans in a more southern cradle, and adds that the Djebel material is related to a Paleolithic material of Northwestern Iran, the Zarzian culture, dated 10000–8500 BC, and in the more ancient Kebarian of the Near East. He concludes that more than 10,000 years ago the Indo-Europeans were a small people grammatically, phonetically and lexically close to Semitic-Hamitic populations of the Near East.[28]





Further north still, in the southern Ural Mountains, the Mesolithic culture that
developed during the 11th Millennium BP clearly derived from Iran (Vasiliev et al, 1996),
based on similarity in microlithic technology and also in the fact that sheep and cattle
arrived at an early date. This culture then spread both east and west. In the west it has to
be assumed that the 10th Millennium BP Yelshanian culture of the Volga steppe,
previously described as Neolithic, developed from it, although the point was made that the description ‘Neolithic’ really only refers to the people’s use of pottery and the presence of some domesticated animals. At the site of Mullino to the west of the Urals,
the earliest Mesolithic layers have been dated to 8.5-8.3ky BP (Matyushin, 1986), and
this is followed by a 300-500 year gap before the first true Neolithic culture appears.
Matyushin (1986) dates the first true Neolithic culture of the Volga steppe to around
7.6ky BP. He makes the point that there are anthropological affinities between the
Neolithic people of Mullino and those of the Mediterranean and the Middle East,
contrasting with the broad-faced Russians of the Mesolithic.
Thus the picture would appear to be that of a northward movement of Iran-derived
culture right at the start of the Holocene, developing into the 11th Millennium BP
Mesolithic cultures of the southern Urals, the Yelshanian culture of the steppe and the
earliest occupation levels at Mullino. The occupational gap at Mullino is consistent with a
widespread disaster having occurred in about 8.2ky BP, and the progress of subsequent
Neolithic culture is consistent with a re-colonisation of low-lying areas from a survivor
population in the southern Urals.

And how your hypothesis explain the complete dissapearance of Basal Eurasian from Dzudzuana to Villabruna and R1b?

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Lol, I wasn't that interested in R1b so I'd always assumed there were M269s in Khvalynsk or some other early steppe culture.
M269 might as well have come from the moon in that case. We need samples from other places, not same old Transcaucasus/PC steppe/Zagros.

Yeah, Samara and Khvalynsk R1b aren't even P297 I don't believe (at most R1b1a, so more archaic than the V88 in Iron Gates!).

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

And how your hypothesis explain the complete dissapearance of Basal Eurasian from Dzudzuana to Villabruna and R1b?

Well the main thing is the etc. - immediately after that I say that their earliest dated kurgans (in that study at least) date to the Maykop period, almost 500 years after the first of the Steppe North Caucasian kurgans.

And

 

[Olympus Mons]

Oh come on please... Back in 2016 you saw that Yamnaya was EHG + CHG, you thought " what is the link? " then you googled Caucasus Neolithic and Shulaveri-Shomu was the absolute only result. You didn't create a whole hypothesis that make sense, you just filled the gap with what could be the best proxy. Nobody ever say that Shulaveri-Shomu didn't participate to the creation of the Steppe package, people are calling you out for always trying to put R1b-M269 while absolutely nothing is giving you credit. That you noticed that Shulaveri-Shomu had Wine and that IE cultures have a strong Wine symbolism, doesn't give you any credit. Stop always bashing others, and wait for your godamn Shulaveri paper in silence.

Yes. I will still ignore you. Your role and intent is to provoque me in order for that other someone (s) is able to give me an infraction.

 

[halfalp]

Yeah, Samara and Khvalynsk R1b aren't even P297 I don't believe (at most R1b1a, so more archaic than the V88 in Iron Gates!).

Samara was labeled L278 so at the beginning of the phylogenetic tree.

 

[halfalp]

Yes. I will still ignore you. Your role and intent is to provoque me in order for that other someone (s) is able to give me an infraction.

I do not wish to provoque you, i wish you would go down to earth and stop thinking only what you believe matters and to think other people are retarded.

 

[Ygorcs]

this exchange of females must have happened around 7 ka, early khvalynsk

Yes. The main takeaway, which some people as usual will pretend mean nothing, is like Angela said: these results suggest that the CHG influx is either Late Paleolithic or Early Neolithic, but the earliest PIE split certainly did not date to before the Chalcolithic. However, by the Chalcolithic the steppe samples are basically formed in its CHG-EHG mix, and the EEF (ANF+20% WHG) ancestry increases mainly from the Chalcolithic to the Bronze Age Yamnaya, so the CHG probably didn't arrive with (most of) the EEF found there latr. All of that strongly counters the "South Caucasian PIE" and "PIE expansion from the Caucasus" hypothesis. A pre-PIE or a proto-pre-PIE from the Caucasus in the late Mesolithic or even more probably early Neolithic? Maybe, even likely... but PIE proper - the common and immediate source of all known IE branches - was a Chalcolithi/Early BA language, and the evidences suggest that it didn't spread from the steppes as a secondary home after an expansion from south of the Caucasus by the Chalcolithic. If it came from there, it developed and started to diverge in the steppes, not elsewhere.

As for M269, it's not found in Chalcolithic Caucasus. It may have been there in Early Neolithic Caucasus, or maybe it was north of the Caucasus all that time just like M73 was, too. But the fact its arrival in the Pontic-Caspian area is certainly older than some thought also suggests the very same conclusion: if PIE origins are not in a language family indigenous to the steppes, then it arrived there well before PIE proper as it was spoken some time before it started to split.

 

[Ygorcs]

If PIE was an ANE language it would have been agglutinative. All the languages of North Eurasia are agglutinative. PIE was born somewhere very close / around of Caucasus.

Those assumptions do not make sense linguistically. There is nothing to suggest that all languages of North Eurasia are still derived from ANE languages. Considering the huge genetic upheavals in that region since ANE was prevalent there, I'd say that assumption is quite unlikely. Besides, ANE already existed as a distinct group some 20,000 years before PIE was spoken. That's more than enough time for languages to change completely to the point of becoming unrecognizable, including a change in their grammatical typology. PIE was fusional, and fusional languages are basically a later development of agglutinative languages that blended affixes together so that they lost their semantic independence and turned into affixes that convey several meanings all at once. Thus it would make total sense if PIE derived from a much earlier agglutinative language family, or even from an analytic language that slowly became agglutinative and then fusional. There is the hypothesis of Dixon that languages tend to slowly move to another typology in a sort of cycle from analytic > agglutinative > fusional > analytic.

The classic example of how that may change along the development of a language is Ancient Egyptian, which started as fusional, became more analytic, then started to become more agglutinative and finally more fusional again by the time of late Coptic. Another example is found in the Finno-Ugric languages, which are agglutinative, but have had a tendency to become slowly more fusional. Native American languages, most of whom must derive from the same language family or a couple of language families, range from polysynthetic to fusional and agglutinative.The boundaries between one typology and the other one are not insurmountable, they are rather fluid.

 

[Ygorcs]

Just to make it clear how far Wang et al went in the direction of my shulaverian Hypothesis


This is in accordance with the Neolithization of the Caucasus (ie The Shulaveri-Shomu), which had started in the flood plains of South Caucasian rivers (ie Kura and araxes river where shulaveri lived) in the 6th millennium BCE (yes, 6000bc to 5000BC when Shulaveri were there), from where it spread across to the West/Northwest (exactly like the shulaverian hypothesis says, the ones that went west and the ones into kuban river and the steppe) during the following millennium (yes, from 4900BC to 4000BC) . It remains unclear whether the local CHG ancestry profile (Kotias Klde and Satsurblia in today’s Georgia) was also present in the North Caucasus region before the Neolithic. However, if we take the CHG ancestry as a local baseline and the oldest Eneolithic Caucasus individuals from our transect as a proxy for the local Late Neolithic ancestry, we notice a substantial increase in AF ancestry. This in all likelihood reflects the process of Neolithization, which also brought this type of ancestry to Europe. As a consequence, it is possible that Neolithic groups could have reached the northern foothills earlier35 (Supplementary Note 1). Hence, additional sampling from older individuals would be desirable to fill this temporal and spatial gap (yes, as if reich and Krauser do not have those samples for a while...).

From this point on, on the next published papers, it will start to appear the mentions to, as "the hypothesis of Ian Mathieson in 2018" and "as we had anticipated in Wang et al"

This is how it is done. Its just fun to watch.

Well, but this excerpt apparently talks about the CHG in the North Caucasus, not about the distinct steppe genetic structure. Also, the authors clearly associate the Neolithization of the Caucasus (of which you say "i.e. the Shulaveri-Shomu") with the substantial increase in Anatolian Farmer ancestry... They basically say that the Neolithic expansion in the Caucasus implied a lot more of ANF in the resulting population. However, the earliest (Chalcolithic) samples of the steppe show quite negligible ANF as well as CHG that already seems to have been there since well before, most of the ANF seem to have increased during the Chalcolithic (post-Shulaveri times in the Caucasus, right?), and additionally that ANF that appears later seems to be part of EEF coming from the west (Eastern/Southeastern Europe), not from the Caucasus. All in all, it seems to me that excerpt is very useful, but to the North Caucasus area, not the Pontic-Caspian steppe at large.

 

[Ygorcs]

Interestingly, and I don't think anybody has actually mentioned this somehow, but the first North Caucasian kurgans (in the Wang paper) are seen with Steppe individuals (Progress and Vonyuchka) around 4200 BCE, with the typical Caucasians (e.g. Y DNA J etc.) joining in the trend at least 400 years later (i.e. when Maykop begins). So, despite older kurgans in the South Caucasus and perhaps with deeper origins in Mesopotamia, it appears that kurgan burials were never spread from "farmers" to Steppe folk.

What's more, it seems like this is a link to Leyla Tepe, which was earlier than Maykop and had kurgans at exactly the same time Progress and Vonyuchka did (those barely North Caucasian individuals Davidski is raving about as proof against a Southern origin of IE).

The Soyugbulag kurgans of Leyla Tepe are located in the Kaspi municipality. which is immediately to the South of Ossetia, where Progress and Vonyuchka were found, and corresponding with this map showing the genetic barrier between North and South that is the Caucasus:

This parting is exactly where the Leyla Tepe kurgans were found, and where the first North Caucasian kurgans (those of Progress and Vonyuchka) were also found.

What do you think that means? I don't know if I understood your point (or the map's legend) well, but the Leyla Tepe vs. North Caucasian kurgans look like they are separated by a strong genetic barrier...