Sephardic Jewish influence on Mediterranean populations

Sorry; you're misinformed. Proselytism by Jews was made a crime punishable by death as soon as Christianity became the religion of the Empire. The only exception would be non-Christian areas like some in Lithuania when the Jews first arrived, because they were still pagans.

Barbara Aiello is a quack in my opinion. Her meanderings have no place in a site dedicated to genetics and actual historical research.

As for the historian you cite, this is the kind of "history" he pursues.

"[FONT=&quot]we must reject the prejudice of those who affirm that we cannot speak of a Jewish presence in centers where there are no written documents to confirm it. For them, the answer of an absolute authority such as Lucien Febvre is enough: “History is made, without a doubt, with written documents. When there is. But it can and must be done without written documents, if none exist. By means of all that the historian's ingenuity allows him to use to make his honey, in the absence of the flowers normally used. So with words. With signs. With landscapes and with bricks. With forms of fields and with bad herbs. With the eclipses of the moon and the attacks of draft horses. With the expertise on stones made by geologists and with the analysis of metals made by chemists. In a word, with all that, being proper to man,it means the presence, the activity, the ways of being of man ”.

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[FONT=&quot]history of the Jewish presence also in this area must be sought and reconstructed little by little, piece by piece, starting also from the silences and from nothing, given that the expulsion of the Jews from Calabria has determined a total oblivion on their presence in ours. region. It must be said, however, that, compared to other Calabrian communities (small and large) that are proud to have hosted Jewish 'colonies' even without having a written history, some signs can be found in the Lamezia area. We start from Nicastro. The presence of Jews in Nicastro, at the current state of research, is historically documented in the thirteenth century, although it cannot be excluded that,like other Jewish communities that came to Calabria and Sicily following the Arabs, they had already settled there between the end of the 9th and the beginning of the 10th century. in conjunction with the Saracen raids of that period, when the first settlement called Musconà was born. The Jewish presence in Nicastro, however, is not extensively documented by any of the most accredited Nicastro historian.


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Are you seriously putting forth the proposition that a genetic impact by Jews on Calabrians is "proved" by hints, or, even worse, silences, i.e. the ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE that there were Jewish communities in Calabrian towns?

Let us say that the stories recounted by some old people that there used to be a Jewish community in X,Y, or Z town were true. SO WHAT? Come to Livorno, where there was a large, thriving Jewish community which lasted down to the modern era. The great Italian painter Modigliani was part of that community. Hell, Pontremoli, a village in the Lunigiana, had a Jewish community. In fact, a very famous family of Rabbis who left when there was rioting promoted by Gentile merchants and settled in Salonica was named Pontremoli. So did La Spezia, and Genova, and dozens of towns in Piemonte and in the Romagna. Check out France, southern France, in particular, or Germany or Greece or numerous areas under the control of the Ottomans. When they saw an economic opportunity, or, as in the case of Pontremoli they were invited to settle to set up trade, Jewish communities would spring up. When they were persecuted by the locals or expelled by a new ruler they left and settled somewhere else. The pattern is the same all over Europe.

You are sadly misinformed about the history of European Jewry if you believe there was anything unique about Calabria or Sicily in that regard.

More importantly, even in cases of DOCUMENTED Jewish settlements, the idea that when persecuted any significant percentage of them remained would need SOME, ACTUAL evidence to be worthy of serious discussion. Even more ludicrous is the idea that a small percentage of a small group would have asignificant genetic impact on the surrounding population. Do you have any idea how small these Jewish enclaves were? Livorno indeed was home to a relatively large number of Jews. However, Pontremoli, larger than most of the Calabrian towns you're discussing, had six families at the most populous time. SIX!

Plus, Jews, until they were emancipated by the Napoleonic Code, were living in ghettos where they were locked in at night and the gates were opened in the morning. The descriptions of the conditions in the ghettos in Piemonte and even in the larger ghetto in Rome are horrifying. If there were riots, etc., resulting in an exodus, how many people would take in some stragglers who wanted to remain? The only path for them would have been to present themselves to the local priest or to a Bishop and ask to be baptized. Were there any? Yes, there were. Enough to change the genetics of a region? No, there weren't.

Now, enough of this nonsense.

This is a place for genetics and serious historical research, not fantasy.
 
J1 rates in Calabria are similar to Sicily and Campania.
If Calabrese had substantial recent Jewish ancestry (especially post 1400s) we would see drastic divergences regarding Y-Dna in Southern Italy.
The Jewish community in Sicily during the 15th century was estimated around 3% to 6%. Most of which were ethnically cleansed and persecuted.
 
J1 rates in Calabria are similar to Sicily and Campania.
If Calabrese had substantial recent Jewish ancestry (especially post 1400s) we would see drastic divergences regarding Y-Dna in Southern Italy.
The Jewish community in Sicily during the 15th century was estimated around 3% to 6%. Most of which were ethnically cleansed and persecuted.

I didn't say it was peculiar to Calabria. Rather, I used Calabria as an example for the South as a whole. However, where do you get the 3% to 6% figure from? That's the kind of number that interests me. And it's still much higher than Jewish share of population anywhere north of Alps and west of Poland.
 
Why this need to belittle me in making your arguments? Why so much rage?

I never claimed that there was "anything unique" about Calabria or Sicily. Rather, I said that along with Spain these were the centers of Jewish life in Western Europe until circa 1500. Is this controversial? Yes, there were Jews throughout Italy in medieval times, but there were significantly more in Southern Italy, and the communities in the South were more ancient, though additional Jews arrived circa 1000, and still more circa 1350 to 1500.

Sorry; you're misinformed. Proselytism by Jews was made a crime punishable by death as soon as Christianity became the religion of the Empire. The only exception would be non-Christian areas like some in Lithuania when the Jews first arrived, because they were still pagans.

This is a sweeping statement which I doubt could stand up to scrutiny for the 1000 years running from 500 to 1500 CE. And if I may quote my own words, I said that the Jewish proselytism "extended UNEVENLY into Medieval times." On a scale of 1 to 10, how powerful & constant do you think Byzantine authority was in Southern Italy from 500 to 1000? How closely & continuously were Basilian monks and imperial officials able to monitor the people? If anything, the "policing" came from Jewish authorities, as Jewish communities tended to practice strict endogamy as a strategy of group survival. But this is a tendency, however strong, that likely waxed and waned during this period. There might well have been windows of proselytizing down to maybe 1000 CE. That's just a guess -- or is speculation not allowed here? Only hard facts!!!

You ridicule Villello for his imagination, for looking for clues outside the written record, which is scant for many things during this era, not just the presence of Jews. Perhaps others would throw stones at you for your empiricism.

And this is the wonder of the science of population genetics, that it is able to throw light on hitherto "dark ages" of history. And still, the history of Mediterranean Jews, their origins, their relationships to wider populations, remains largely mysterious.

Let us say that the stories recounted by some old people that there used to be a Jewish community in X,Y, or Z town were true. SO WHAT? Come to Livorno, where there was a large, thriving Jewish community which lasted down to the modern era. The great Italian painter Modigliani was part of that community. Hell, Pontremoli, a village in the Lunigiana, had a Jewish community. In fact, a very famous family of Rabbis who left when there was rioting promoted by Gentile merchants and settled in Salonica was named Pontremoli. So did La Spezia, and Genova, and dozens of towns in Piemonte and in the Romagna.
All true. But it all came later. The Jewish presence in the South was more ancient, and it was in the South precisely when the wider population was at its lowest ebb, which suggests the possibility of disproportionate effects on population structure.

Please note. I do not say this is a fact. I say it's a possibility. Again, how to explain the finding of Alvarez-Alvarez et al that 7.5% of South Italians carry a Sephardic marker and 27% of Tunisians do? I already stated upthread that I believe this finding problematic. But it must point to something. What does it point to? How to make sense of this? Sephardic genetic influence is just one proposed explanation. I am not saying it's the best explanation.

Check out France, southern France, in particular, or Germany or Greece or numerous areas under the control of the Ottomans. When they saw an economic opportunity, or, as in the case of Pontremoli they were invited to settle to set up trade, Jewish communities would spring up. When they were persecuted by the locals or expelled by a new ruler they left and settled somewhere else. The pattern is the same all over Europe.

No, the pattern is not the same. Why? Because of the phenomenon of Conversos & Neofiti. And this question is precisely what the study upthread, by Alvarez-Alvarez, was attempting to explore. It may not have been the best designed study, but it opens up a set of questions.

What do we need to know? Well, some threshold empiricism might come in handy.

(1) What was the percentage of Jews in both the Italian South and Iberia circa 1500? Do we actually have solid estimates for this? -- ihype02 just offered the number 3% to 6%

(2) If Jewish communities further North, in France, in Germany, were "mobile" insofar as they moved to new regions under pressure of persecution, how much of this mobility was contingent on their small numbers? If communities in the South were significantly larger--and this is a key question, how much larger?--can it be assumed that they were just as mobile?

(3) Can the phenomenon of Jews moving to the East be constructively compared with Catholic Albanians moving to the West? How great was the role of "state actors" in moving these populations? How much was the project of private resources and religious institutions? I have seen estimates that 12,000 Jews lived in Calabria circa 1500. How accurate, I don't know. But if 55,000 Albanians moved to Italy, maybe close to 12,000 Jews (if this is the number) moved East.

Even more ludicrous is the idea that a small percentage of a small group would have asignificant genetic impact on the surrounding population. Do you have any idea how small these Jewish enclaves were? Livorno indeed was home to a relatively large number of Jews. However, Pontremoli, larger than most of the Calabrian towns you're discussing, had six families at the most populous time. SIX!

Well, again, we would need to know the total number of Jews in Calabria or Sicily compared with the total population in those regions. --> And if hype02 is correct, then 3% to 6% across a region translates to a lot more than just 6 people in many towns and locales.
 
[FONT=Irving Heading, serif]This is an account dealing with Sicily, from Italicsmag -- obviously not an academic study, but hey, it's something[/FONT]

The presence of the Jews in Sicily and in Southern Italy goes back to the first century before the modern era. While conquering Roman armies operating in the Mediterranean basin brought a good number of Jews into Italy as slaves, the largest number was brought back by Pompey after he sacked Jerusalem in 63 BC and by the Roman Proconsul Crassus who is said to have sold thirty thousand of them as slaves. To these groups a good number of merchants trading with Rome and operating out of the Eastern Mediterranean, and particularly Alexandria, may be added to make up the first nucleus of Jews to reside in Sicily. In time, their small communities grew in importance through immigration from other parts of the Mediterranean. By the time they were expelled, there were fifty-two Jewish communities throughout the island, the largest being in Palermo with 5000 people. Trapani, Messina, Catania, Marsala, Sciacca, Agrigento, and Mazara had large communities ranging from 2000 to 3600 people; medium sized com­munities ranging from 350-1500 individuals existed in Bivona, Caltagirone, Caltabellotta, Mineo, Modica, Noto, and Polizzi; smaller communities existed in Salemi, with 320 Jews, in Taormina, Castroreale, Randazzo, Augusta, Erice, Paternò.

[FONT=&quot]It is difficult to quantify the number of Jews living in Sicily. According to some scholars the total Jewish population of Sicily was 100,000 people, which represented 10% of the total Sicilian population. Others adopt a more conservative estimate of 50,000. Even so, it still constitutes a large nucleus whose weight in the life of the community, owing to the restless activism of the Jews who traveled back and forth between their communities, was certainly felt. Sicily was the land with the highest percentage of Jews in Europe. In Spain the number of Jews was estimated at 200,000 which represents barely 2, 2.5% of the to­tal Spanish population. In Sicily even if we accept the lowest estimate, they represented 5% of the population. This number may not seem like much, but the percentage varied from town to town and in a few cities, Jews represented nearly half the total population, as in Marsala for example which had 46.9%. The highest percentages of Jews were in Sciacca (31.9%), Trapani, with many other places with percentages higher than 10 such as Agrigento (12.4), Randazzo (11.3), Castroreale (15.2), Savoca (11.2), Palermo (14.9), and Polizzi (11.6).

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[FONT=&quot]The golden age of Judaism in Sicily came during the twelfth and four­teenth centuries, under the Norman-Swabian dynasties. Under the Normans who came to power in 1066 and remained until the last of their dynasty, Constance of Hauteville married Henry VI, the son of Frederick Barbarossa, the Jews enjoyed parity of civil rights with other citizens. They could hold public offices, own property, except Christian slaves. They were free to engage in commercial activities, to travel and work. A medieval traveler, Benjamin of Tudela, who was not unlike Marco Polo in spirit of observation and interests left us a detailed description of the various Sicilian Jewish communities he visited between 1170 and 1173, giving information as to their numbers and occupations. He describes Sicily as a kind of earthly paradise and the Jews who lived in it as a large and flourishing community. The Jews were engaged in many activities too diverse to list here, but two occupations in which they held a monopoly were the silk and dyeing industries. While the Arabs had brought the silk worm to Sicily, and built a thriving industry, it was the Jews who eventually made it grow into a monopoly. King Roger II, returning from an expedition against Byzantium in 1147, stopped off in The­bes, Greece, where the silk industry was in the hands of Jews. He captured the town and took the Jewish silk workers with him to Palermo, giving a great boost to the native industry, guaranteeing for Sicily four centuries of domination of the market. The dyeing industry, which required special skills, was another favorite occupation of the Jews. They were also adept as fishermen, artisans and skilled workers of every kind . . . .

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[FONT=&quot]The departure from Sicily was traumatic for those who remained and those forced to leave. The expulsion order, however, had different effects in Sicily than it had had in Spain. Out of 200,000 Jews in Spain, 150,000 accepted banishment rather than convert to Christianity. In Sicily, there seems to be agreement among historians that a great number of Jews, and particularly those that belonged to the upper classes, preferred to convert, rather than lose their capital and their homeland to which undoubt­edly they had become attached and which had been very hospitable to them. The percentage of those who left is difficult to calculate but it is generally accepted that most of the poor Jews preferred to leave, no doubt hoping to find better economic conditions elsewhere. There were also many who accepted conversion but continued to be Jews within the sanctuaries of their homes. It is safe to assume that at least a quarter of the Jewish population and perhaps more than that accepted baptism in order to remain on the island. That was the percentage of Jews who opted for con­version in Spain where the conditions were a lot harsher on account of the relentless pursuit of the Spanish Inquisition of those whose conversion was not deemed sincere. But in Sicily in 1493 and until 1500, the Inquisition was still in the hands of the local bishops and was relatively mild in comparison. Thus the [/FONT]marranos[FONT=&quot], that is, the converted Jews could be Christians to the outside world but practice Judaism — a difficult thing to do considering they had no access to books, temples, and all the other necessary objects of their faith — within the confines of their home.

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https://italicsmag.com/2020/05/07/the-jews-of-sicily/
 
I love modern italy
But from the lecture i posted in another
Thread they had a fair share of explusions
of jews
From italian regions .... :frown:
The open hands that ottoman eccepted
Those jews shouldn't be forgotten
And me and other jews of sefhardi heritage
Don't take it for granted(y)

P.s
Afcorse i remember some regions were in the
Hand of spain during some of those explusions
 
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If I were enraged, you would know it! :) Exasperated, perhaps.

My analysis of the paper can be found in the original post. It is extremely flawed.

I have yet to see any DOCUMENTATION by a reputable source as to the numbers of the Jews in Southern Italy up to the 1500s when they were expelled by the Spanish. Nor have I yet to see DOCUMENTATION of the number of Jews who remained after the expulsions.

Without such data this is a meaningless discussion. So, I'm out.

You and your sidekick can try to keep it alive by responding to each other all you want. It won't change those facts.
 
Well, again, we would need to know the total number of Jews in Calabria or Sicily compared with the total population in those regions. --> And if hype02 is correct, then 3% to 6% across a region translates to a lot more than just 6 people in many towns and locales.

I just did a quick research in Wikipedia after seeing the 40% mark given by you. It's not really that hard.

No need to attach me into the conspiracy "trying to inflate the Levantine ancestry". Not interested I was just correcting you.
 
I just did a quick research in Wikipedia after seeing the 40% mark given by you. It's not really that hard.

No need to attach me into the conspiracy "trying to inflate the Levantine ancestry". Not interested I was just correcting you.

In some calculators, I score 5% Scandinavian. I don't believe it. In others I score about 3% Ashkenazi. I think both of these are just calculator artifacts. Also just because you have a small percentage of let's say Italian it does not mean there was Italian genetic inheritance in your ancestry. It just means that you share that much of your genome with Italians.
 

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