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Thread: Here we go again:The populism and dystopia of Italy's new government

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    2 members found this post helpful.


    Needless to say, violence isn't a solution, so everyone just needs to calm down.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Here we go again:The populism and dystopia of Italy's new government

    Links to mainstream :) Italian News:

    ANSA (In English)
    https://www.ansa.it/english/

    ANSA (in Italian)
    http://www.ansa.it

    TGCom24 (in Italian)
    http://www.tgcom24.mediaset.it

    RAI News 24 (Live TV in Italian)
    http://www.rainews.it/dl/rainews/liv...7489d4ce9.html
    But you oh Messapo, Tamer of Horses ... that no one, with neither iron nor fire can break down! “Virgil”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Most likely.
    Italians are now known as the Serfs of Brussels.
    .
    Reminds me of a child (Italy ) asking for pocketmoney from his parents ( Germany and France) .......parents state to child
    :...but you are too young to look after a lot of money, he is some change.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Most European countries had a hard time achieving long-desired democracy. The French had to behead a king. Germany and Italy only emerged as united, homogeneous countries in the late 19C. East-Europeans had to wait until recently to see the Iron Curtain fall and to get rid of communist dictatorship.

    Then all those newly-hatched democracies got together and established a new technocratic... dictatorship. A Commission which is NOT even ELECTED decides on eveything important in the EU. You just can't kick them out, as you'd do with a president or PM.

    Millions of would-be immigrants are waiting at the gates, or forcing their way in. We have no army to speak of, even less so since the Brits opted out - which deprives us of any form of influence in foreign affairs. Tax rate harmonization is at best a remote dream. The Central Bank inflicts its own diktats on convalescent economies. Etc...

    In the meantime, the European Parliament (the one elected political body) passes bills to decide - guess what - how thick the tiles should be on the walls of a butcher's laboratory! (Not kidding!)

    No wonder people are getting exasperated. Nationalist parties are gaining ground in Italy, but also in France, Austria, Poland, the Netherlands, even Germany in spite of the long-lasting post-war trauma. Britain opted out. You'd think it would set decision-makers thinking, in Brussels. It does not. They just keep on as before, quagmired in their own certainties and political correctness.

    The end is near, my friends. Europe was a fantastic dream. We all believed and hoped. Then the technocrats laid their power-grabbing hands on it, and they'd rather see it dead than alter their options. The only way to salvage the EU would be to re-write its constitution, and to let the peoples have their say in public matters. Our so-called "élites" are not prepared to consent to that. Disaster is round the bend...
    It is therefore worth while to search out the bounds between opinion and knowledge; and examine by what measures, in things whereof we have no certain knowledge, we ought to regulate our assent and moderate our persuasion. (John Locke)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Italians are now known as the Serfs of Brussels.

    Reminds me of a child (Italy ) asking for pocketmoney from his parents ( Germany and France) .......parents state to child
    :...but you are too young to look after a lot of money, he is some change.

    You live too far from Europe to fully understand what it is really happening in Europe and in Italy.

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    Here we go again:The populism and dystopia of Italy's new government

    @Pax A. - Come on Man. I Felt that, and it hurts a little. (.. che frustata! ..)
    I understand that you disagree with Sile comment. I don’t agree either.
    By your logic:
    @Salento @Sile @Angela @Jovialis and others are just this:

    Should we put in a muzzle and shut up?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    @Pax - Come on Man. I Felt that, and it hurts a little.
    I understand that you disagree with Sile comment. I don’t agree either.
    By your logic:
    @Salento @Sile @Angela @Jovialis and others are just this:

    Should we put in a muzzle and shut up?
    Sile has proudly opined that he isn't Italian, doesn't speak Italian, doesn't want to be Italian, doesn't want to learn Italian, that the Veneto is not really Italy and the separatist movement is a good thing. Unsurprisingly, he's a Lega Nord supporter.

    From what I can tell he has spent his entire life in Australia.

    So...

    I was born there, lived there as a child, was partly educated there, and have never cut my ties. You were born there, lived there at least through your young manhood. We're also proud to be Italian and care deeply about what happens to Italy, unless I'm reading you incorrectly. We see all these things as happening to us, in some measure, not to THEM. I think we have some standing to venture an opinion, although my relatives do say that since I don't live there full time and don't pay taxes there I should shut up, and they have a point, so I try to be circumspect.

    I don't see Jovialis putting his oar in the water like Sile on these kinds of subjects.

    I found Sile's post offensive, as I find most of his posts about Italy both uninformed and offensive. If Pax ever finds me making such comments he has every right to call me out for them.

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    Here we go again:The populism and dystopia of Italy's new government

    That’s not point. I said that I disagree with Sile too.
    It’s about the living too far, and the Understanding comment.
    On his Profile Sile wrote Australian and Italian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Sile has proudly opined that he isn't Italian, doesn't speak Italian, doesn't want to be Italian, doesn't want to learn Italian, that the Veneto is not really Italy and the separatist movement is a good thing. Unsurprisingly, he's a Lega Nord supporter.
    From what I can tell he has spent his entire life in Australia.
    So...
    I was born there, lived there as a child, was partly educated there, and have never cut my ties. You were born there, lived there at least through your young manhood. We're also proud to be Italian and care deeply about what happens to Italy, unless I'm reading you incorrectly. We see all these things as happening to us, in some measure, not to THEM. I think we have some standing to venture an opinion, although my relatives do say that since I don't live there full time and don't pay taxes there I should shut up, and they have a point, so I try to be circumspect.
    I don't see Jovialis putting his oar in the water like Sile on these kinds of subjects.
    I found Sile's post offensive, as I find most of his posts about Italy both uninformed and offensive. If Pax ever finds me making such comments he has every right to call me out for them.
    If you love Italy, you should be worried about how things evolve there.
    And it starts with those Italians saying outsiders should shut up.

    It's all popular politicians talk, blaiming Europe for the necessary reforms they failed to do themselves.
    The last 5 years, Italy was the weakest economic performer in Europe.
    Erdogan goes a step further, the free fall of the Turkish lira is 'a complot of the foreigners'.
    Do you want that kind of rhetoric?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    That’s not point. I said that I disagree with Sile too.
    It’s about the living too far, and the Understanding comment.
    It's not solely a question of disagreeing with his comment or finding it offensive for me: it's to Pax' point about whether he has the "experience" to really understand what is going on there. Look, any Tom, Dick or Harry is free to express an opinion and does. That's what all these foreigners do all the time. The question is how much weight should be given to the opinions of certain people. There's a hierarchy.

    If you and I have lived here for a substantial amount of time, with only visits back, then yes, we don't understand completely what's going on, all the nuances, as well as do the people who are living there.

    That's why I don't vote in the elections, although I could.

    If you feel differently, great. I'm fine with that. I just disagree.

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    Here we go again:The populism and dystopia of Italy's new government

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It's not solely a question of disagreeing with his comment or finding it offensive for me: it's to Pax' point about whether he has the "experience" to really understand what is going on there. Look, any Tom, Dick or Harry is free to express an opinion and does. That's what all these foreigners do all the time. The question is how much weight should be given to the opinions of certain people. There's a hierarchy.

    If you and I have lived here for a substantial amount of time, with only visits back, then yes, we don't understand completely what's going on, all the nuances, as well as do the people who are living there.

    That's why I don't vote in the elections, although I could.

    If you feel differently, great. I'm fine with that. I just disagree.
    I understand.
    Now think of all the comments posted by foreigners and non US Citizens about the 2016 US Elections.
    Anyway :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    If you love Italy, you should be worried about how things evolve there.
    And it starts with those Italians saying outsiders should shut up.

    It's all popular politicians talk, blaiming Europe for the necessary reforms they failed to do.
    The last 5 years, Italy was the weakest economic performer in Europe.
    Erdogan goes a step further, the free fall of the Turkish lira is 'a complot of the foreigners'.
    Do you want that kind of rhetoric?
    Of course I'm worried about what happens there. Also, if you think I would have voted for either of those two parties you're much mistaken.

    As I said above:

    Every country should and does put its own country first whatever they may say publicly. Italy should have gotten out of the Eurozone ages ago. It's in its best interest. They should start negotiating for it NOW.

    That doesn't mean I think this government has a prayer of making things better. Too much fuzzy left wing thinking and not enough capitalist thinking.

    "Green" regulation run amok is a stupid idea. So is undoing the retirement reforms. I understand that when you have such high unemployment among young people getting people out of the workforce isn't a bad idea, but this isn't the way to put more young people to work.

    They need to institute more market reforms, not fewer ones.

    It's just a muddle because you're yoking together left and right whose only common denominator seems to be anti-immigration and hatred of the status quo.

    As for anti-corruption the League has already been proven to be corrupt.
    I've said over and over again that Italian political and economic thinking is too socialistic, not capitalistic enough, imo.

    However, that doesn't mean I'm any cheerleader for the EU. I never have been. Going on the Euro has been a disaster for Italy. If it had its own currency, which would fall to its rightful level, its goods would be cheaper and its balance of trade better.

    Plus, I think the whole EU set up is anti-democratic. I endorse every word that hrvclv said upthread. This coming technocrat government is going to be the equivalent of a foreign administered take over of popularly elected officials, even if I think their platforms are a mess. You either believe in democracy or you don't.

    What I find objectionable is how foreigners who understand nothing of the challenges Italy faces and always has faced given its particular history and natural resources feel free to make condescending and uninformed comments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Of course I'm worried about what happens there. Also, if you think I would have voted for either of those two parties you're much mistaken.

    As I said above:



    I've said over and over again that Italian political and economic thinking is too socialistic, not capitalistic enough, imo.

    However, that doesn't mean I'm any cheerleader for the EU. I never have been. Going on the Euro has been a disaster for Italy. If it had its own currency, which would fall to its rightful level, its goods would be cheaper and its balance of trade better.

    Plus, I think the whole EU set up is anti-democratic. I endorse every word that hrvclv said upthread. This coming technocrat government is going to be the equivalent of a foreign administered take over of popularly elected officials, even if I think their platforms are a mess. You either believe in democracy or you don't.

    What I find objectionable is how foreigners who understand nothing of the challenges Italy faces and always has faced given its particular history and natural resources feel free to make condescending and uninformed comments.
    I admit Angela, I know very little about Italian politics, and I don't want to comment to much.
    But as an outsider, when I see how figures like Berlusconi or Beppe Grillo can dominate Italian politics for decades, I don't have an impression that Italians cast their votes wisely.
    And it is sad to see a country with such potential perform so poor lately.

    Belgium with its complicated legal constructions may be a strange spectacle for outsiders too, it even is for Belgians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    @Pax A. - Come on Man. I Felt that, and it hurts a little. (.. che frustata! ..)
    I understand that you disagree with Sile comment. I don’t agree either.
    By your logic:
    @Salento @Sile @Angela @Jovialis and others are just this:

    Should we put in a muzzle and shut up?

    That Sile lives far from Italy and Europe is a fact, is not even an opinion. The political position of Sile is known, however. Separatist and Venetian nationalist with typical anti-Italian, anti-Rome and anti-Brussels sentiments. To me his political position does not create any problem, I live in Italy, I know many Venetians, I have even friends who are separatist.


    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    If you love Italy, you should be worried about how things evolve there. And it starts with those Italians saying outsiders should shut up.

    Kindly, could you show me where Italians in this forum are saying outsiders should shut up?

    Who knows Angela, knows very well that she is worried about what is happening in Italy, does not doubt that even for a moment she's not worried.

    What is happening in Italy is not only linked to anti-EU propaganda, it is something different that has much deeper roots. And it dates back over 25 years ago, when the traditional party system was involved in the scandal called Tangentopoli.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I've said over and over again that Italian political and economic thinking is too socialistic, not capitalistic enough, imo.
    Exactly. Both the extreme left and the right parties in Italy profoundly despise capitalism. But it is a common feeling even in the most moderate parties. I'm not watching this thing with my eyes filtered by my political vision. It's a fact.

    Clearly when you have a huge public debt, scattered between government bonds and other, and still dependent on moods of global finance, you understand that these anti-capitalist feelings do not really allow you to fully understand certain dynamics.

    The majority of Italians do not even know that leaving the Euro and the EU as well as being a lengthy process is a process that has a very high price for Italian public finances, it has a huge cost. Many think that it is enough to send a letter to Brussels, print the old Italian lira to to go back to a weak currency and to devalue. And it is done.

    But it is also quite evident that EU does not do the interests of all member countries in the same way. The strong anti-EU sentiments are also the result of the many wrong things in the EU.
    Last edited by Pax Augusta; 30-05-18 at 21:06.

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    A funny, but true comment to lighten up a little the thread.
    Usually young Italian Soldiers and an Officer of the Carabinieri provide security to Polling Stations. In most cases are Schools.
    Sometimes they are stationed for 2-3 days and nights in this Schools.
    Some are located is God forgotten places.
    In this case, It’s not unusual at all that most of the left over food in the Fridge of the teachers lounge, and the coffee too, miraculously disappears by the time they leave.
    Just saying it. LoL

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    I'm passionate about Italy, the Italian people, history and culture. I want Italy to always be a successful country; it's an intrinsic part of my identity.

    Nevertheless, I don’t comment on the contemporary political climate there; I don’t know much about it. I don’t live there, so my opinion wouldn’t reflect the experience of an Italian citizen.

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    Here we go again:The populism and dystopia of Italy's new government

    IMO Organized Chaos is the way Italy operates. In Politics, Bureaucracy, Business, Airports, ...
    The initial Drama is always followed by an Ok conclusion.
    A casual, or unprofessional approach at first, followed by an argument, and a reasonable Solution.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Sile has proudly opined that he isn't Italian, doesn't speak Italian, doesn't want to be Italian, doesn't want to learn Italian, that the Veneto is not really Italy and the separatist movement is a good thing. Unsurprisingly, he's a Lega Nord supporter.
    From what I can tell he has spent his entire life in Australia.
    So...
    I was born there, lived there as a child, was partly educated there, and have never cut my ties. You were born there, lived there at least through your young manhood. We're also proud to be Italian and care deeply about what happens to Italy, unless I'm reading you incorrectly. We see all these things as happening to us, in some measure, not to THEM. I think we have some standing to venture an opinion, although my relatives do say that since I don't live there full time and don't pay taxes there I should shut up, and they have a point, so I try to be circumspect.
    I don't see Jovialis putting his oar in the water like Sile on these kinds of subjects.
    I found Sile's post offensive, as I find most of his posts about Italy both uninformed and offensive. If Pax ever finds me making such comments he has every right to call me out for them.
    I find it offensive on how you wrongly branded me........your assumptions are branded as bullying in Australia.
    You assume far too much which leads to your high percentage of errors in regards to me and others here.
    On your erred comments .........
    I vote there so I must be .
    My parents spoke both Veneto and italian and taught me Veneto......can I understand Italian, yes....
    I only support a decentralised form government and will never support a centralised one.........if you assume that means not to be part of Italy, then that's your wrong theory.
    I state what the italian constituation states in regards to what, who and when people of the italian peninsula became Italians .............you should read it ..........I do not follow nationalistic propaganda.
    .
    On the EU...........I read the economists papers a long time ago, before it began and their advice still stands today.............remove nations if you want the EU to succeed.
    .
    The question on Italy today is a question of what does the italian vote counts for, the question of Democracy for the people..........and not what is dictated to them from politicians who have been running the country basically since they where born.

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    Here we go again:The populism and dystopia of Italy's new government

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I'm passionate about Italy, the Italian people, history and culture. I want Italy to always be a successful country; it's an intrinsic part of my identity.

    Nevertheless, I don’t comment on the contemporary political climate there; I don’t know much about it. I don’t live there, so my opinion wouldn’t reflect the experience of an Italian citizen.
    We need less involved voices like yours.
    We are too close, and sometimes We can't see the forest for the trees.
    From a distance You can have more objective thoughts than me, for example. :)

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    The question on Italy today is a question of what does the italian vote counts for, the question of Democracy for the people..........and not what is dictated to them from politicians who have been running the country basically since they where born.
    Paolo Savona, the economist rejected as Economy Minister by Italy's President Sergio Mattarella, is 82 years old and has been already Minister of an Italian government 25 years ago. Paolo Savona is part of those generations who have led this country for the last 70 years, he is not a 20 year old boy popped out of nowhere.

    However, in the last hours there have been some news. First of all Carlo Cottarelli, Italy's prime minister-designate, is still working on the formation of his government, and has not presented his Ministers' list in Parliament yet.

    The leader of Five Star Movement a few hours ago, Luigi Di Maio, said he will assign the role of minister of the economy to another one, moving Paolo Savona to a different ministry, thus accepting the veto of the President of Italy and trying to convince Mattarella again to assign the role of prime minister-designate to Giuseppe Conte. According to Italian press, Mattarella is seriously considering Di Maio's proposal.

    At this point it is Matteo Salvini, Lega Nord's leader, who shows reticence and does not seem now interested in forming a government because the polls see his party growing and therefore would like to go to new elections as soon as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    there is more
    they promote an 'Italia first' policy
    it involves making more debts and breaking EU austerity rules
    we've seen where that has lead to in Greece

    It is more simple,

    just look at late Greek prime minister before elections and after
    and the fuzzy question of the stupid referendum.

    AFTER BREXIT,
    AND EUROSCEPTICISM GROWN RAPIDLY IN GREECE
    THEY WOULD NOT PUT A EUROSCEPTIC IN HEAD OF ITALY,
    (unless he gaves a quarranty for current status)

    THEY WOULD NOT GABLE
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Paolo Savona, the economist rejected as Economy Minister by Italy's President Sergio Mattarella, is 82 years old and has been already Minister of an Italian government 25 years ago. Paolo Savona is part of those generations who have led this country for the last 70 years, he is not a 20 year old boy popped out of nowhere.
    However, in the last hours there have been some news. First of all Carlo Cottarelli, Italy's prime minister-designate, is still working on the formation of his government, and has not presented his Ministers' list in Parliament yet.
    The leader of Five Star Movement a few hours ago, Luigi Di Maio, said he will assign the role of minister of the economy to another one, moving Paolo Savona to a different ministry, thus accepting the veto of the President of Italy and trying to convince Mattarella again to assign the role of prime minister-designate to Giuseppe Conte. According to Italian press, Mattarella is seriously considering Di Maio's proposal.
    At this point it is Matteo Salvini, Lega Nord's leader, who shows reticence and does not seem now interested in forming a government because the polls see his party growing and therefore would like to go to new elections as soon as possible.
    You still do not understand what is at stake
    https://www.thelocal.it/20180529/mar...ettinger-italy
    'Markets will teach Italy to vote for the right thing': EU official's comment causes uproar.
    .
    https://www.sbs.com.au/news/italy-re...orm-government
    .
    more time by the president or trying to save face
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...m-a-government

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    You still do not understand what is at stake
    https://www.thelocal.it/20180529/mar...ettinger-italy
    'Markets will teach Italy to vote for the right thing': EU official's comment causes uproar.
    .
    https://www.sbs.com.au/news/italy-re...orm-government
    .
    more time by the president or trying to save face
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...m-a-government
    First of all, the situation is still open, there is still room for a Conte government to be launched with Lega Nord and Five Star Movement as main government parties.

    Sile, you don't understand that what you're trying to show me as revealing it's a topic of discussion everywhere in Italy, even in bars. You're not telling me anything new. Mattarella is the only one who does not have to save face, President Mattarella exercised his constitutional powers. I suggest you read the Italian constitution, in particular article 92.

    Mattarella was a university professor of Law, Parliamentary Law, in his life, and one of the members of the Italian Constitutional Court. I have the feeling that Mattarella knows the Italian constitution very well. Unlike many Italians.

    The face and the statements of German EU commissioner Gunther Oettinger have been everywhere in Italy for two days, TV, printed paper, comments on Facebook.

    And, moreover, the Italian media reported these days some interesting details on the life of this EU Commissioner. Like when he was involved in a recent scandal in Germany (January 2018) because Oettinger, who is a German CDU politician, has been for a long time the usual customer of a pizzeria in Germany owned by the Ndrangheta, and was advised by members of the German government that the restaurant was under environmental interection. The name of Oettinger is in an Italian book of 12 years ago written by an Italian prosecutor in 2006, in which an exponent of the Nndrangheta in Germany says to support his political activities in Baden Wurttemberg. There's something to do with his recent declarations on Italy. Maybe not. We will understand it later.

    EU-Kommissar Oettinger (CDU) und Mafia-Mitglied in Kontakt?

    https://www.focus.de/politik/deutsch...d_8279631.html

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    Paolo Cottarelli is no longer the Italian Prime Minister-designate.

    Soon it is possible that Giuseppe Conte will be appointed again as Prime Minister-designate, to form a government with Lega Nord and Five Star Movement as majority parties.

    EDIT

    Conte has been summoned tonight at 9 pm, Italian time, by the Presidency of the Italian Republic. Likely to receive the assignment again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Paolo Cottarelli is no longer the Italian Prime Minister-designate.

    Soon it is possible that Giuseppe Conte will be appointed again as Prime Minister-designate, to form a government with Lega Nord and Five Star Movement as majority parties.

    EDIT

    Conte has been summoned tonight at 9 pm, Italian time, by the Presidency of the Italian Republic. Likely to receive the assignment again.
    the term Lega nord has ceased to exist ...the term is now Lega ...........the last of Bossi socialist "Lieutenants" who was involved early on ...Maroni was replaced as the president of Lombardy 2 months ago by a lega person
    Bossi and his socialist buddies united these parties
    Liga Veneta, Lega Lombarda, Piemont Autonomista, Uniun Ligure, Lega Emiliano-Romagnola and Alleanza Toscana to form Lega Nord in 1991. These parties still run seperatly inside the new Lega.
    .
    .
    .

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