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Thread: Here we go again:The populism and dystopia of Italy's new government

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    First of all, the situation is still open, there is still room for a Conte government to be launched with Lega Nord and Five Star Movement as main government parties.
    Sile, you don't understand that what you're trying to show me as revealing it's a topic of discussion everywhere in Italy, even in bars. You're not telling me anything new. Mattarella is the only one who does not have to save face, President Mattarella exercised his constitutional powers. I suggest you read the Italian constitution, in particular article 92.
    Mattarella was a university professor of Law, Parliamentary Law, in his life, and one of the members of the Italian Constitutional Court. I have the feeling that Mattarella knows the Italian constitution very well. Unlike many Italians.
    The face and the statements of German EU commissioner Gunther Oettinger have been everywhere in Italy for two days, TV, printed paper, comments on Facebook.
    And, moreover, the Italian media reported these days some interesting details on the life of this EU Commissioner. Like when he was involved in a recent scandal in Germany (January 2018) because Oettinger, who is a German CDU politician, has been for a long time the usual customer of a pizzeria in Germany owned by the Ndrangheta, and was advised by members of the German government that the restaurant was under environmental interection. The name of Oettinger is in an Italian book of 12 years ago written by an Italian prosecutor in 2006, in which an exponent of the Nndrangheta in Germany says to support his political activities in Baden Wurttemberg. There's something to do with his recent declarations on Italy. Maybe not. We will understand it later.
    EU-Kommissar Oettinger (CDU) und Mafia-Mitglied in Kontakt?

    https://www.focus.de/politik/deutsch...d_8279631.html
    Maybe it will work...but I think Salvini wants to go to July elections ...........we will see.
    .
    I am trying to show you that regardless on who wins the election or who governs Italy, what is at stake is the value of the Italian vote by the populace ......this should never be undermined or else you end up with the same evil 3 types of government, socialim/communism, fascism and monarchy.......these are all centralised forms of governments
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    how is the italian press writing about the lega and five stars? here, there is no sentence with those names that doesn't also include populism and xenophobia.

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    Here we go again:The populism and dystopia of Italy's new government

    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    how is the italian press writing about the lega and five stars? here, there is no sentence with those names that doesn't also include populism and xenophobia.
    You can pick and choose media outlets in Italy too, tailored to your views.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Links to mainstream Italian News:

    ANSA (In English)
    https://www.ansa.it/english/

    ANSA (in Italian)
    http://www.ansa.it

    TGCom24 (in Italian)
    http://www.tgcom24.mediaset.it

    RAI News 24 (Live TV in Italian)
    http://www.rainews.it/dl/rainews/liv...7489d4ce9.html
    But you oh Messapo, Tamer of Horses ... that no one, with neither iron nor fire can break down! “Virgil”

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    ROME — After 88 days of impasses and negotiations, two Italian populist parties with a history of antagonism toward the European Union received approval Thursday night to create a government that has already unsettled the Continent’s political order.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/31/w...populists.html

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    it looks like a new government will be formed after all
    they have 2 options :
    either swallow more than half of the promesses they made
    or lead Italy into empoverishment and financial default

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Maybe it will work...but I think Salvini wants to go to July elections ...........we will see.
    .
    I am trying to show you that regardless on who wins the election or who governs Italy, what is at stake is the value of the Italian vote by the populace ......this should never be undermined or else you end up with the same evil 3 types of government, socialim/communism, fascism and monarchy.......these are all centralised forms of governments
    You haven't ever read the Italian Constitution. What the president of the Republic has done is guaranteed by his role and by his constitutional rights. It has already happened other times in the past that a President of the Italian Republic vetoed a minister candidate.

    In fact, at the end the two parties have accepted Mattarella's decision. Di Maio and Salvini should have accepted it a few days ago. So they could have saved us all a lot of aggravation.



    The text of the Italian constitution's article 92:

    «Il Governo della Repubblica è composto del Presidente del Consiglio e dei Ministri, che costituiscono insieme il Consiglio dei Ministri.

    Il Presidente della Repubblica nomina il Presidente del Consiglio dei Ministri e, su proposta di questo, i Ministri».


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    News reports I saw 12 hours ago states that Conte was re-instated as Prime minister of Italy .................Mattarella has done some "reverse diplomacy".
    He states, you can have Paolo Savona as a minister, but not a finance minister.

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    The most important thing to me is who winds up in charge of economic matters, the currency etc. I would have preferred the first choice: I agree that the EU has been a cage for Italy, one that benefits only Germany and France. At least the new man doesn't seem to have totally drunk the kool-aid.

    I just hope they don't back pedal on the flat tax proposal, or at least stick with deep tax cuts. I also hope they don't roll back the reforms already passed.

    As for immigration, it has to be brought under control.

    As I said before, every country should and does, no matter what they say, put their own country first. It's about time.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    1 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Merkel has already warned that Europe won't guarantee Italian debt if Italy don't put his finance in order.
    Where is the time my Italian customer payed me with 1.000.000 lire notes..

    130 % of GNP debt, and earlier retirement with higher pensions are coming.
    It's a miracle, I think we should all follow the Italian model.

    Italy has voted for Santa.
    But they'll soon find out he came with an empty bag.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    the term Lega nord has ceased to exist ...the term is now Lega ...........the last of Bossi socialist "Lieutenants" who was involved early on ...Maroni was replaced as the president of Lombardy 2 months ago by a lega person
    Bossi and his socialist buddies united these parties
    Liga Veneta, Lega Lombarda, Piemont Autonomista, Uniun Ligure, Lega Emiliano-Romagnola and Alleanza Toscana to form Lega Nord in 1991. These parties still run seperatly inside the new Lega.

    in other countries or eras such party names would be consider as traitors, terrorists, etc,

    .
    .
    .



    in other countries or eras such party names would be consider as traitors, terrorists, etc,
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

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    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Here we go again:The populism and dystopia of Italy's new government

    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    in other countries or eras such party names would be consider as traitors, terrorists, etc,
    It’s not unusual that controversial movements or groups that operate at the edge or outside of the boundaries of the Status Quo, can later evolve into a political resistance movement.
    As an example the “Briganti” of South Italy would morph from outlaws to armed resistance against Foreign and Domestic new ruling entities.
    In the South of Italy, the word Brigante is not limited to an Outlaw, but is also used for rebels fighting for a cause.

    Briganti Si Muore
    In Neapolitan- English and Italian subtitle



    Cicero: ‘To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a child.’
    Last edited by Salento; 03-06-18 at 23:04.

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    is it true?








    It seems the virus of small indepented states in EU is growing,

    Divide and conquer politic from 'above'
    or separate is better?

    Anyway seems like Italy is also infected,
    in fact very much..

    ok for joke,
    did The Arab spring winds, pass the meditterennean and reach Spain and Italy?
    or the virus came from UK?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    is it true?
    Yes, but it's 4 years old

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ists-plot-tank


    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Anyway seems like Italy is also infected,
    in fact very much..
    Italy is a very complicated country to understand, and separatism was perhaps stronger in the past than today.

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    Does All North Italy want to be separated or each province in North, want to be separated individual. Like Lombardia, Veneto etc.

    If both perspectives have supporters, which is the strong one?

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    Here we go again:The populism and dystopia of Italy's new government

    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    Does All North Italy want to be separated or each province in North, want to be separated individual. Like Lombardia, Veneto etc.

    If both perspectives have supporters, which is the strong one?
    There are separatist movements in Sicily and Sardinia too.
    Mostly are Regions, beside the province of Bolzano, and a few more.

    There was a “Non Binding” referendum asking for more autonomy in Veneto and Lombardia last year:

    “ ... More than 90% of voters in Lombardy, ..... , and Veneto .., voted yes in the non-binding referendum, their presidents claimed. ...”

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41712263

    But they can NOT Separate from Italy because of Article 5 of the Constitution:

    “The Republic, one and indivisible, recognises and promotes local autonomies, and implements the fullest measure of administrative decentralisation in those services which depend on the State.
    The Republic accords the principles and methods of its legislation to the requirements of autonomy and decentralisation.”

    Nobody talk about the Italian Army, but they should.
    After all, imo they are bound to keep Italy together.
    A Show of Force (ROMA - Fori Imperiali):


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    That is what I do not yet understand in EU.
    in one hand we speak about Fiscal Union,
    same central bank, common laws,
    Unification of Europe
    and on the other hand we see separatists, autonomists, growing inside EU.

    strange but the case of Catalania, after inner Spain desicion is also EU desicion,
    too many movements Salento, and still fogy place the EU plans for such,


    BTW
    Salento sorry me
    But I thought Italians did not made walking parades, but rather running.

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    Here we go again:The populism and dystopia of Italy's new government

    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    BTW
    Salento sorry me
    But I thought Italians did not made walking parades, but rather running.
    LoL. Of course they do normal speed Parades.
    You are thinking about the Bersaglieri.
    180 steps in 1 minute.
    Bersaglieri + Frecce Tricolori.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    There are separatist movements in Sicily and Sardinia too.
    What is the idea behind that? In many case, just rich regions want to be independence. I guess it is a reaction for North.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    What is the idea behind that? In many case, just rich regions want to be independence. I guess it is a reaction for North.
    No It’s not a reaction at all to the North Independence Movements.
    Sicilians and Sardinians are better prepared to answer in details. Just to be fair to them.

    All I’m going to say is that this independence movements have been around for many Decades, in Sicily for over 100 Years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    What is the idea behind that? In many case, just rich regions want to be independence. I guess it is a reaction for North.
    most italian regions seek independence or automany .............thats because they hate the centralised Italian government system..........its a continuation of fascism and the monarchy system ( up to 1946 ) to a degree.
    non-centralised governments are more prosperous....USA, Australia, Germany to name a few
    .
    .
    below are the regions that already have autonomy ............the others all miss out
    The Autonomous regions of Italy — with special establishment statutes.
    Aosta Valley‎ (15 C, 11 P)
    Friuli-Venezia Giulia‎ (14 C, 10 P)
    Sardinia‎ (20 C, 22 P)
    Sicily‎ (21 C, 21 P)
    Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol‎ (12 C, 5 P)
    .
    .
    http://italyexplained.com/five-auton...regions-italy/

    .
    .
    2 other regions are seeking autonomy
    In the non-binding referendums on Sunday (22 October 2017), voters in the northern regions of Lombardy and Veneto demanded more powers from the central government.
    Neither region is seeking to break away from Italy, but are instead asking for a greater say in the distribution of tax

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    Here we go again:The populism and dystopia of Italy's new government

    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    most italian regions seek independence or automany .............thats because they hate the centralised Italian government system..........its a continuation of fascism and the monarchy system ( up to 1946 ) to a degree.
    non-centralised governments are more prosperous....USA, Australia, Germany to name a few
    below are the regions that already have autonomy ............the others all miss out
    The Autonomous regions of Italy — with special establishment statutes.
    Aosta Valley‎ (15 C, 11 P)
    Friuli-Venezia Giulia‎ (14 C, 10 P)
    Sardinia‎ (20 C, 22 P)
    Sicily‎ (21 C, 21 P)
    Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol‎ (12 C, 5 P)
    http://italyexplained.com/five-auton...regions-italy/
    2 other regions are seeking autonomy
    In the non-binding referendums on Sunday (22 October 2017), voters in the northern regions of Lombardy and Veneto demanded more powers from the central government.
    Neither region is seeking to break away from Italy, but are instead asking for a greater say in the distribution of tax
    I Remember that:
    Valle D’Aosta
    Friuli-Venezia Giulia‎
    Sardinia‎
    Sicily‎
    Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol‎
    Have all been Granted “Statuto Speciale” mainly for geographical reasons.
    Logistic disadvantages for Islands, tall Mountains places, foreign borders, and relocation of populations.
    Some Linguistic reason in Bolzano too.

    Lombardia and Veneto resent the less prosperous Regions, IMO.
    Last edited by Salento; 09-06-18 at 14:54.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    the term Lega nord has ceased to exist ...the term is now Lega ...........the last of Bossi socialist "Lieutenants" who was involved early on ...Maroni was replaced as the president of Lombardy 2 months ago by a lega person
    Bossi and his socialist buddies united these parties
    Liga Veneta, Lega Lombarda, Piemont Autonomista, Uniun Ligure, Lega Emiliano-Romagnola and Alleanza Toscana to form Lega Nord in 1991. These parties still run seperatly inside the new Lega.
    .
    .
    .
    Things have changed. It's no more Roma ladrona.
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.

    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.

    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    Does All North Italy want to be separated or each province in North, want to be separated individual. Like Lombardia, Veneto etc.
    If both perspectives have supporters, which is the strong one?
    Italy has been a unitary country for almost a century and a half. On the other hand, Italy has a tradition of almost a millennium of city-states, small kingdoms, duchies, etc. But in Italy there is no problem of Spanish-style secessionism. There has always been this discourse of fiscal federalism, etc. But in this historical phase, Italy is entering as a united country. You must not get confused about certain wrong stereotypes.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Italy has been a unitary country for almost a century and a half. On the other hand, Italy has a tradition of almost a millennium of city-states, small kingdoms, duchies, etc. But in Italy there is no problem of Spanish-style secessionism. There has always been this discourse of fiscal federalism, etc. But in this historical phase, Italy is entering as a united country. You must not get confused about certain wrong stereotypes.
    this is not the populism to be worried about

    the populism is to blaim the Euro for what goes wrong in Italy
    Italy is the poorest performer of Europe lately
    and it is because of lack of necessary reforms inside Italy

    the Mafia and corruption are some internal problems to be tackled

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    Most European countries had a hard time achieving long-desired democracy. The French had to behead a king. Germany and Italy only emerged as united, homogeneous countries in the late 19C. East-Europeans had to wait until recently to see the Iron Curtain fall and to get rid of communist dictatorship.
    Then all those newly-hatched democracies got together and established a new technocratic... dictatorship. A Commission which is NOT even ELECTED decides on eveything important in the EU. You just can't kick them out, as you'd do with a president or PM.
    Millions of would-be immigrants are waiting at the gates, or forcing their way in. We have no army to speak of, even less so since the Brits opted out - which deprives us of any form of influence in foreign affairs. Tax rate harmonization is at best a remote dream. The Central Bank inflicts its own diktats on convalescent economies. Etc...
    In the meantime, the European Parliament (the one elected political body) passes bills to decide - guess what - how thick the tiles should be on the walls of a butcher's laboratory! (Not kidding!)
    No wonder people are getting exasperated. Nationalist parties are gaining ground in Italy, but also in France, Austria, Poland, the Netherlands, even Germany in spite of the long-lasting post-war trauma. Britain opted out. You'd think it would set decision-makers thinking, in Brussels. It does not. They just keep on as before, quagmired in their own certainties and political correctness.
    The end is near, my friends. Europe was a fantastic dream. We all believed and hoped. Then the technocrats laid their power-grabbing hands on it, and they'd rather see it dead than alter their options. The only way to salvage the EU would be to re-write its constitution, and to let the peoples have their say in public matters. Our so-called "élites" are not prepared to consent to that. Disaster is round the bend...
    I agree with the existence of the problems that you have mentioned. To solve these problems there are two possible solutions, with revolutions, with the cutting of the heads mentioned by you, or with the reforms, so it has always been. But never, whatever was the solution, the existence of the country has not been questioned. It is not known whether the EU will resist to these strong internal contradictions and to the external attacks. But i do not know for example what France will do in a world of the future where the Great Powers are as big as a continent. Exactly one of these Great Powers, by advertising the new "toy" said that just one like this is enough to wipe off from the face of the earth a country as big as France. For this, i think that you must not destroy this dream called Europe, but see what can be done better.

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