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Thread: Here we go again:The populism and dystopia of Italy's new government

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    this is not the populism to be worried about

    the populism is to blaim the Euro for what goes wrong in Italy
    Italy is the poorest performer of Europe lately
    and it is because of lack of necessary reforms inside Italy

    the Mafia and corruption are some internal problems to be tackled

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Italy
    They say that Germany is deindustrializing Italy, the Germans are destroying Italian heavy industry.
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.
    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.
    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.
    O me zhabat në moçale, o me zhgabat lart në male!
    -Petro Nini Luarasi-

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    They say that Germany is deindustrializing Italy, the Germans are destroying Italian heavy industry.
    this and other bull shit circulates instead of pinpointing the problems that have to be adressed inside Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    this and other bull shit circulates instead of pinpointing the problems that have to be adressed inside Italy
    You have demonstrated in multiple threads and posts a clear Anti-Italian Bias.
    But you oh Messapo, Tamer of Horses ... that no one, with neither iron nor fire can break down! “Virgil”

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    They say that Germany is deindustrializing Italy, the Germans are destroying Italian heavy industry.
    Who is saying that? 60 million Italians in choir or someone in particular? It seems to me very difficult that all 60 million Italians say the same thing.

    I can help you.

    The one who, more than others, has spread in Italy the idea that the Germans, to be precise the Franco-German axis, have contributed to destroy the Italian heavy industry is a French economist, Alain Parguez.

    The French Alain Parguez stated that the main purpose of the French tecnocrats was to destroy Italy, and they were the French to involve the German in this purpose.

    Alain Parguez is Emeritus Professor of Economics of the University of Franche-Comte, Besancon (France) and was associated with the Economics Department at the University of Ottawa.

    http://www.neties.com/APE.htm


    Alain Parguez's statements from a summit held 6 years, in 2012.

    "the obsession of the French technocrats and their economists was precisely to destroy the industrial base of Italy"

    "One of the main ideologues of the Euro, Jacques Attali, in 1985, in the final phase of the debate on the Maastricht Treaty, states verbatim: "our main objective is to destroy forever any industrial capacity outside Germany and France".

    "85% of net German exports, and this also applies to France, are within the eurozone, which is why, contrary to what you might think, they will never peacefully accept the fact that Greece or Italy abandon the eurozone, precisely because the corporations, the big French and German companies, would suddenly find themselves without earnings. It is therefore absurd to accuse countries like Italy and Greece to be responsible for their own deficits; without the deficits of your country (Italy) and Greece, the situation of French and German companies would already be bankrupt."

    "There is a fundamental point that too many people ignore: the Germans were extremely reluctant to enter the monetary union; there was a period, especially during the early 1970s, when monetary and fiscal policy was much more expansionary in Germany than in France; so why did the Mitterand regime oblige Germany to enter the
    European Union (EU)? The answer is simple: the Kohl government was financed entirely by French secret funds; and that's not all: there was a country that was hated by the French establishment for a very long time; and this country was just yours, Italy; the obsession of the French technocrats and their economists was precisely to destroy the industrial base of Italy; this is why they accused Italian governments of always being too soft about wages, unions and purchasing power.

    How could the Italian economy be destroyed? Imposing a revaluation of the currency; and when Italy decided to adopt the euro, this was in conjunction with the decision to a revaluation of at least 45% of the price; therefore, suddenly, the Italians could no longer export outside the euro zone.

    It makes me laugh when people say, "but if we leave the euro like we do? It will be a nightmare ". Italy has been completely destroyed by the euro!
    Imagine the Italian industry relative prices, for example in the US market: with a sudden increase of 40%, it was clear that Italian exports would collapse overnight. Taking out of Italy game, at this point it was decided to seduce Greece, Portugal, Ireland, for the same reasons: to increase exports."



    Last edited by Pax Augusta; 09-06-18 at 17:00.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Who is saying that? 60 million Italians in choir or someone in particular? It seems to me very difficult that all 60 million Italians say the same thing.

    I can help you.

    The one who, more than others, has spread in Italy the idea that the Germans, to be precise the Franco-German axis, have contributed to destroy the Italian heavy industry is a French economist, Alain Parguez.

    The French Alain Parguez stated that the main purpose of the French tecnocrats was to destroy Italy, and they were the French to involve the German in this purpose.

    Alain Parguez is Emeritus Professor of Economics of the University of Franche-Comte, Besancon (France) and was associated with the Economics Department at the University of Ottawa.

    http://www.neties.com/APE.htm


    Alain Parguez's statements from a summit held 6 years, in 2012.

    "the obsession of the French technocrats and their economists was precisely to destroy the industrial base of Italy"

    "One of the main ideologues of the Euro, Jacques Attali, in 1985, in the final phase of the debate on the Maastricht Treaty, states verbatim: "our main objective is to destroy forever any industrial capacity outside Germany and France".

    "85% of net German exports, and this also applies to France, are within the eurozone, which is why, contrary to what you might think, they will never peacefully accept the fact that Greece or Italy abandon the eurozone, precisely because the corporations, the big French and German companies, would suddenly find themselves without earnings. It is therefore absurd to accuse countries like Italy and Greece to be responsible for their own deficits; without the deficits of your country (Italy) and Greece, the situation of French and German companies would already be bankrupt."

    "There is a fundamental point that too many people ignore: the Germans were extremely reluctant to enter the monetary union; there was a period, especially during the early 1970s, when monetary and fiscal policy was much more expansionary in Germany than in France; so why did the Mitterand regime oblige Germany to enter the
    European Union (EU)? The answer is simple: the Kohl government was financed entirely by French secret funds; and that's not all: there was a country that was hated by the French establishment for a very long time; and this country was just yours, Italy; the obsession of the French technocrats and their economists was precisely to destroy the industrial base of Italy; this is why they accused Italian governments of always being too soft about wages, unions and purchasing power.

    How could the Italian economy be destroyed? Imposing a revaluation of the currency; and when Italy decided to adopt the euro, this was in conjunction with the decision to a revaluation of at least 45% of the price; therefore, suddenly, the Italians could no longer export outside the euro zone.

    It makes me laugh when people say, "but if we leave the euro like we do? It will be a nightmare ". Italy has been completely destroyed by the euro!
    Imagine the Italian industry relative prices, for example in the US market: with a sudden increase of 40%, it was clear that Italian exports would collapse overnight. Taking out of Italy game, at this point it was decided to seduce Greece, Portugal, Ireland, for the same reasons: to increase exports."



    Obviously paid to say all this by ultra-nationalist Italians. :)


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Obviously paid to say all this by ultra-nationalist Italians. :)
    Of course. :)

    On a serious note, there are other foreign academics who in these years have helped to grow certain feelings in Italy. Now I'm not here even to discuss whether they are accurate or not, but I report what happened.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Of course. :)

    On a serious note, there are others foreign academics who in these years have helped to grow certain feelings in Italy. Now I'm not here even to discuss whether they are accurate or not, but I report what happened.
    Indeed, just for the sake of clarity, my personal "economic" philosophy is much further to the right than that of most Italians. I absolutely believe in lowering taxation (I think the flat tax is a very interesting idea), reforming labor laws and pension law and on and on, but that has nothing necessarily to do with whether Italy should be on the Euro. I also have personally been against the Euro from the very beginning. Maybe it's just that I actually read at the time what economists from other countries were saying.

    As I've said umpteen times before, most people put their own country first, whether they say so for mass public consumption or not, well, maybe other than a lot of Italians. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Indeed, just for the sake of clarity, my personal "economic" philosophy is much further to the right than that of most Italians. I absolutely believe in lowering taxation (I think the flat tax is a very interesting idea), reforming labor laws and pension law and on and on, but that has nothing necessarily to do with whether Italy should be on the Euro. I also have personally been against the Euro from the very beginning. Maybe it's just that I actually read at the time what economists from other countries were saying.

    As I've said umpteen times before, most people put their own country first, whether they say so for mass public consumption or not, well, maybe other than a lot of Italians. :)
    Kenneth Rogoff in the Guardian:
    "

    It is now fairly obvious that the euro was not necessary to the success of the EU, and instead has proved a massive impediment, as many economists on this side of the Atlantic had predicted. Eurocrats have long likened European integration to riding a bicycle: one must keep moving forward or fall down. If so, the premature adoption of the single currency is best thought of as a detour through thick, wet cement."

    "For southern Europe as a whole, the single currency has proved to be a golden cage, forcing greater fiscal and monetary rectitude but removing the exchange rate as a critical cushion against unexpected shocks."

    " If southern European countries had kept their own currencies, they might never have dug as big a debt hole and would have had the option of partial default through inflation."

    https://www.theguardian.com/business...-merkel-macron
    Kenneth Rogoff is professor of economics and public policy at Harvard University and recipient of the 2011 Deutsche Bank Prize in Financial Economics

    This article by Joseph Stiglitz, Nobel prize winning economist, should be read carefully before commenting on these issues:

    "The Problem With Europe Is The Euro":
    https://www.theguardian.com/business...pe-is-the-euro

    "It is perhaps natural that the eurozone’s leaders want to blame the victim – to blame the countries in recession or depression or reeling from a referendum result – for bringing about this state of affairs. They do not want to blame themselves and the great institutions that they have helped create, and which they now head. But blaming the victim will not solve the euro problem – and it is in large measure unfair."

    That's why I said that it was a terrible retreat to withdraw the candidacy of the first finance minister. He understood this. The new one will be a disaster: another yes man to the EU.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Kenneth Rogoff in the Guardian:
    "
    [FONT="]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT="]It is now fairly obvious that the euro was not necessary to the success of the EU, and instead has proved a massive impediment, as many economists on this side of the Atlantic had predicted. Eurocrats have long likened European integration to riding a bicycle: one must keep moving forward or fall down. If so, the premature adoption of the single currency is best thought of as a detour through thick, wet cement."

    "For southern Europe as a whole, the single currency has proved to be a golden cage, forcing greater fiscal and monetary rectitude but removing the exchange rate as a critical cushion against unexpected shocks."

    " If southern European countries had kept their own currencies, they might never have dug as big a debt hole and would have had the option of partial default through inflation."[/FONT]

    https://www.theguardian.com/business...-merkel-macron
    Kenneth Rogoff is professor of economics and public policy at Harvard University and recipient of the 2011 Deutsche Bank Prize in Financial Economics

    This article by Joseph Stiglitz, Nobel prize winning economist, should be read carefully before commenting on these issues:

    "The Problem With Europe Is The Euro":
    https://www.theguardian.com/business...pe-is-the-euro

    "It is perhaps natural that the eurozone’s leaders want to blame the victim – to blame the countries in recession or depression or reeling from a referendum result – for bringing about this state of affairs. They do not want to blame themselves and the great institutions that they have helped create, and which they now head. But blaming the victim will not solve the euro problem – and it is in large measure unfair."

    That's why I said that it was a terrible retreat to withdraw the candidacy of the first finance minister. He understood this. The new one will be a disaster: another yes man to the EU.
    I agree that the Euro was a politcal project, decided by politicians ignoring certain economical realities.
    But I strongly doubt that Italy would have been better of without the Euro.

    "For southern Europe as a whole, the single currency has proved to be a golden cage, forcing greater fiscal and monetary rectitude but removing the exchange rate as a critical cushion against unexpected shocks."

    With or without the Euro, greater fiscal and monetary rectitude is required anyway.
    He has a point though re unexpected shocks.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I agree that the Euro was a politcal project, decided by politicians ignoring certain economical realities.
    But I strongly doubt that Italy would have been better of without the Euro.
    "For southern Europe as a whole, the single currency has proved to be a golden cage, forcing greater fiscal and monetary rectitude but removing the exchange rate as a critical cushion against unexpected shocks."
    With or without the Euro, greater fiscal and monetary rectitude is required anyway.
    He has a point though re unexpected shocks.
    https://www.theguardian.com/business...ompetitiveness
    .
    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/...form-1.3522617
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post

    2:37-2:55 or at 1:58 to 2:06. at 1:43 couldn't hold myself sry. i tried. who can listen to this?

    pause too long, accent too strong.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    exactly my point of view

    but those who refuse to face these facts will find plenty of papers and reporters putting the blaim elsewhere

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    You have demonstrated in multiple threads and posts a clear Anti-Italian Bias.
    I like Italy, it's a very nice country. I go on holidays there sometimes.
    Most Italians are very proud of their own country, and they have some reasons.
    But for some, their pride prevents them to face some realities.
    Sorry that I'm not cheering along with them.
    Not everything is 'magnificent' and 'splendid'.

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    The Euro was aimed to keep Germany ín line, a French desire after the unification of Germany, without the Euro the Deutsch Mark would be the dominant currency in Europe now....no doubt.

    And yes it was also a technocratic project without much eye for the sructural differences in Europe. So what is in the monetary policy 'good' for one part of Europe isn't necessarily good for another part.

    So big chance it collapses in the end....with probably bad effects (we can't project all now) for all of us in Europe...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    The Euro was aimed to keep Germany ín line, a French desire after the unification of Germany, without the Euro the Deutsch Mark would be the dominant currency in Europe now....no doubt.

    And yes it's was also a technocratic project without much eye for the sructural differences in Europe. So what is in the monetary policy 'good' for one part of Europe isn't necessarily good for another part.

    So big chance it collapses in the end....with probably bad effects (we can't project all now) for all of us in Europe...
    I'm not so sure about the latter.
    After all the Greeks decided not to leave the Euro.
    There is a huge difference between the cheap rhetoric and the seriousness of crossing a point of no return.
    Both Italian new government parties shouted out loud they would leave the Euro, which would be so much better for Italy.
    But nothing to be found about that in their very recent government formation deal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    After all the Greeks decided not to leave the Euro.
    Greece should have left the euro 8 years ago.

    The truth though is that the parties which openly supported an exist from the Eurozone never got more than 1% of the votes.

    So, Italy is different.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    The former French president Nicolas Sarkozy wanted the war against Libya, damaging Italy a lot, because the overwhelming majority of the landings in Italy after Gaddafi's death comes from Libya. Now we know the reason why the French Sarkozy wanted to kill Gaddafi, to hide the fact that he had been financed by the Libyans. The continuous landings of migrants in Italy are the main reason for the rise of populism in Italy. Italy should sue the French government.


    French inquiry opens into allegations Gaddafi funded Sarkozy 2007 campaign

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-2007-campaign


    Why Did the U.S. and Its Allies Bomb Libya? Corruption Case Against Sarkozy Sheds New Light on Ousting of Gaddafi.

    https://theintercept.com/2018/04/28/...libya-bombing/

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    Greece should have left the euro 8 years ago.

    The truth though is that the parties which openly supported an exist from the Eurozone never got more than 1% of the votes.

    So, Italy is different.
    well, at least they supported Tsipras and Varoufakis who were going for a large debt relief

    that is another similarity between Italy and Greece

    the new government parties also campaigned for a debt relief
    again, nothing of that is found back in the new government deal


    Greece, in the end got partial debt relief and de facto refinancement at new, very favourable rates,
    but they had to accept fargoing austerity measures to get it
    it was not the way Tsipras and Varoufakis had promised

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    Greece should have left the euro 8 years ago.

    The truth though is that the parties which openly supported an exist from the Eurozone never got more than 1% of the votes.

    So, Italy is different.
    The EU know that a max of 4 million tax paying Greeks can never repay the debt ...........the Greek people did not realise this when they voted

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    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    The former French president Nicolas Sarkozy wanted the war against Libya, damaging Italy a lot, because the overwhelming majority of the landings in Italy after Gaddafi's death comes from Libya. Now we know the reason why the French Sarkozy wanted to kill Gaddafi, to hide the fact that he had been financed by the Libyans. The continuous landings of migrants in Italy are the main reason for the rise of populism in Italy. Italy should sue the French government.


    French inquiry opens into allegations Gaddafi funded Sarkozy 2007 campaign

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-2007-campaign


    Why Did the U.S. and Its Allies Bomb Libya? Corruption Case Against Sarkozy Sheds New Light on Ousting of Gaddafi.

    https://theintercept.com/2018/04/28/...libya-bombing/
    I don`t think that Ghedafi was killed just to hide a case of corruption. There was a common interest between France and Great Britain to remove Ghedafi from the power.

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    Hm I read all of you,

    Greece is a very strange case,

    Although lost at least 300 000 places of work to just 1 country, Bulgaria,
    who wonders how many others in Balkans.
    the things that IMF and EU suggest tend to loose more places of work,
    Greece made a referendum which started with another question, and ended with another question, and stupidity,

    Greece is tottaly another story, for example notice
    that Greece has an army machine, that not even Visegrad with 60 million does not have,
    ranking at a position that not even Germany has, although the last has military industry,
    just think except Serbia, Greece has much military as all the behind iron curtain countries, now in EU,

    imagine what will happen if EU dismiss an army equal to Italian army,
    ranking at 4-6 place in EU,

    Italy's case is very different,
    Italy's problem is not the same with Greece,
    in Italy the problem existed before their unification,
    Only The things I read here, are enough to remind me another country,
    The Yugoslavia, Yugoslavia before 1970's was a quite progressive country, and its president manage to hold back autonomistic problems,
    but after 1970's when gave partial economical autonomy and priviladges, open the bag of the Aeolos and release the winds.
    so by what I read Italy's system is just like EU system,
    os they either run back to a confederation of States, either they must go ahead to a central fiscal union with no autonomies.

    the main problem EU has,

    as for the Euro,
    Yes it is the No 1 problem with many EU countries and yet is the No 1 salvation for others,
    But is not the only one,

    for example just look at Eu with open borders, and free to travel corporations,
    the succed of Greece for example was that manage with lower taxes to have such a military machine,
    today by raising taxes not only lost industry and working places and money, but is in danger to lose the military balance,
    Why? for example a central Europe country sourounded by Eu countries spends 3-4% of the tottal goverment income for military, whule Greece needs 8-9% (which droped after crisis)
    So who contributes more to the most expensive EU industry?

    you see every body can say what ever, or think just whatever,
    but by losing Greece her army, EU military industry loses a good client, and the balance and stability in Meditterrenean can be lost,

    the other factor,
    the game among EU-Russia-NATO,

    do we know and understand that major energy provider for Central and North Europe is Gazprom from Russia?
    as also what kind of market it is?
    just remember that 1 year embargo, some baltic countries lost even 70% of their exportations, etc etc.

    So the main question is WHAT EUROPE WE WANT?

    if Greece abbandons her army, surely it will be a prosperous country,
    BUT WILL EU REPLACE THAT ARMY IN MEDITTEREAN?

    and offcourse, the most easy to blaime Mercel,
    Yes Germany is the main economical locomotive of EU
    Yes Germany is possesed with an economical austerity
    but that austerity is killing South Europe,

    The main problem is not Italy or Greece or Portugal,
    the main problem is in the mind of EU,
    for example the ELM emergency liquid mechanism that started first timeat the times the Greek crisis is a foundamental mechanism for future of EU,
    EU must start to build more unification laws,
    otherwise will end with a civil war like USA at 1800's or with 2 EU's

    the Euro balance the last 2 years is not against EU, by a ratio E/$ 1.1-1.15 is quite good, yet not competιtive,
    but considering the killing 1,60 that was once, is much better.

    We open a wide EU very fast, before stabilizing against crush tests the older ones.
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Why? for example a central Europe country sourounded by Eu countries spends 3-4% of the tottal goverment income for military, whule Greece needs 8-9% (which droped after crisis)
    So who contributes more to the most expensive EU industry?

    you see every body can say what ever, or think just whatever,
    but by losing Greece her army, EU military industry loses a good client, and the balance and stability in Meditterrenean can be lost,
    Red somethings that confirms this Yetos.....There were in the negotiations with EU some policy advice to cut the military spending....but the Germans were against it because Greece was a big costumer. Sometimes we life in a strange, absurd world... A drop in the military budget was for the Greece population may be the least hurting...but the defense lobby in Germany prevailed.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    EU must start to build more unification laws,
    I totally agree with it, but it will be bloody-messy so it is good to kick out or give a right to countries for getting out chance who does not share same mentality. Even you look at this perspective, Bretix is a good thing.

  24. #124
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    Here we go again:The populism and dystopia of Italy's new government

    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    I totally agree with it, but it will be bloody-messy so it is good to kick out or give a right to countries for getting out chance who does not share same mentality. Even you look at this perspective, Bretix is a good thing.
    Just the other way around, When the European Nations turn their backs against each other. That turned back the clock before ww2. Indeed that could be bloody messy....


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  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    well, at least they supported Tsipras and Varoufakis who were going for a large debt relief
    that is another similarity between Italy and Greece
    the new government parties also campaigned for a debt relief
    again, nothing of that is found back in the new government deal
    Greece, in the end got partial debt relief and de facto refinancement at new, very favourable rates,
    but they had to accept fargoing austerity measures to get it
    it was not the way Tsipras and Varoufakis had promised
    If Greece had defaulted in 2010 (when, for example, 70% of Greek government bonds were held by foreign investors, primarily banks) the problems for German and French banks would have been significant. Maybe manageable, but we can't know what would have been the impact of the default.

    The 'bailout agreements' were a way to indirectly give money to their banks (of course from the money of their taxpayers and taxpayers from other countries - watch what you vote), while keeping Greece in the Eurozone.

    Greece had to accept that because it was the only way to remain in the Eurozone which was what everyone wanted here.

    (I would have supported an exit then (2010, not in 2015), but I was against the people who presented it as easy. The situation would have been definitely much worse for a short time and bad overall but, either way, any discussion about that is pointless).

    In Italy there are parties that openly support an exist from the Eurozone (even if they don't really mean it) and get voted. That is different from what had happened in Greece. Maybe they can get something from that, maybe not.
    Last edited by bicicleur; 12-06-18 at 23:45.

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