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Thread: Here we go again:The populism and dystopia of Italy's new government

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    17 Dec.
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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    If Greece had defaulted in 2010 (when, for example, 70% of Greek government bonds were held by foreign investors, primarily banks) the problems for German and French banks would have been significant. Maybe manageable, but we can't know what would have been the impact of the default.

    The 'bailout agreements' were a way to indirectly give money to their banks (of course from the money of their taxpayers and taxpayers from other countries - watch what you vote), while keeping Greece in the Eurozone.

    Greece had to accept that because it was the only way to remain in the Eurozone which was what everyone wanted here.

    (I would have supported an exit then (2010, not in 2015), but I was against the people who presented it as easy. The situation would have been definitely much worse for a short time and bad overall but, either way, any discussion about that is pointless).

    In Italy there are parties that openly support an exist from the Eurozone (even if they don't really mean it) and get voted. That is different from what had happened in Greece. Maybe they can get something from that, maybe not.
    maybe they can get something
    but at conditions that will dissapoint all of their voters

    and yes, the Greek bailout prevented bankruptcy of the banks, some German banks, but also Greek banks, and the money was not given to the banks, but to Greece
    and yes, Greece had to pay the banks with that money
    but if Greece hadn't received that money, Greece could start printing their own drachmes which would have been worth less than the paper they were printed on

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    Just the other way around, When the European Nations turn their backs against each other. That turned back the clock before ww2. Indeed that could be bloody messy....
    Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum
    Your Europe and my Europe are different. Mine is just France-Germany and Benelux.

    There shouldn't be Europe Union. It should be United Europe.

    Even Spain and Italy havn't got fully EU standarts. Massive Expansion to East was madness.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    Your Europe and my Europe are different. Mine is just France-Germany and Benelux.

    There shouldn't be Europe Union. It should be United Europe.

    Even Spain and Italy havn't got fully EU standarts. Massive Expansion to East was madness.
    you make it perfectly clear
    everybody his Europe

    that means there is no Europe

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Are you assuming Italians and their governments must behave the same as those of e.g. Sweden? You Swedish are not better than them, and it's a absurd that non-italians ( or whatever they be ) are *imposing* their judgement and conceptions upon another group people ( or individuals ).

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by luciano View Post
    Are you assuming Italians and their governments must behave the same as those of e.g. Sweden? You Swedish are not better than them, and it's a absurd that non-italians ( or whatever they be ) are *imposing* their judgement and conceptions upon another group people ( or individuals ).
    Especially when they don't have any knowledge whatsoever about Italy or clearly even about economics in general. Nobel prize-winning economists, a whole raft of non-European economists, as a matter of fact, are all disdainfully dismissed because their point of view doesn't support the "party" line fed to Europeans by EU and Euro supporting European economists.

    Italy has caved on the Euro. When this doesn't work, I hope Italians insist on it at the polls. If the stock market keeps going in the right direction, maybe I'll retire really early, move back and start agitating. :)

    That's not to say that I don't think Italian economic policy is screwed up, because I do: too much socialism, not enough capitalism.

    It's the tone of the commentary here to which I object more than anything else. That same old, same old condescension and rudeness toward any Southern European country. You don't know how tempted I am sometimes to let loose on their countries and tell them exactly what I think of what I see as their problems and shortcomings, but our parents raised us to behave with some civility and politeness.
    Last edited by Angela; 14-06-18 at 17:43.


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    The beauty of the internet. A Turk who talks about what is Europe in his opinion, is like a Chinese arguing about the best burger. Fortunately for all the Europeans, attempts to get Turkey into the EU have failed. That yes would have been the greatest madness.

    Curious also a Belgian biting the hand that feeds him. Few people in the world would remember the existence of Belgium, a country literally invented from nothing, if Belgium were not the seat of the European Parliament, European Commission, Council of the European Union, and European Council.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    The beauty of the internet. A Turk who talks about what is Europe in his opinion, is like a Chinese arguing about the best burger. Fortunately for all the Europeans, attempts to get Turkey into the EU have failed. That yes would have been the greatest madness.

    Curious also a Belgian biting the hand that feeds him. Few people in the world would remember the existence of Belgium, a country literally invented from nothing, if Belgium were not the seat of the European Parliament, European Commission, Council of the European Union, and European Council.
    That crosses the line. Do that again and you'll get an infraction.

    Some informed commentary from The Financial Times.
    https://www.ft.com/content/b09b785a-...-email:content

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    Here we go again:The populism and dystopia of Italy's new government

    The new Prime Minister of Italy is Great, very strong on Immigration, like I am by the way, it seems that very strong on Immigration wins now.

    President Trump

    15 June 2018 - Fox News (My TV, so .... no link.) :)
    But you oh Messapo, Tamer of Horses ... that no one, with neither iron nor fire can break down! “Virgil”

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    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    The beauty of the internet. A Turk who talks about what is Europe in his opinion, is like a Chinese arguing about the best burger. Fortunately for all the Europeans, attempts to get Turkey into the EU have failed. That yes would have been the greatest madness.

    Curious also a Belgian biting the hand that feeds him. Few people in the world would remember the existence of Belgium, a country literally invented from nothing, if Belgium were not the seat of the European Parliament, European Commission, Council of the European Union, and European Council.
    what you obviously don't know is that most Belgians, including me are rather pragmatic and not chauvinist at all
    and sometimes we make fun with overly chauvinistic people in other countries

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    Here we go again The populism and dystopia of Italys new government

    Thank you Aragorn881; well presented.Now, anyone else have some thoughts to add?___

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    The new Prime Minister of Italy is Great, very strong on Immigration, like I am by the way, it seems that very strong on Immigration wins now.

    President Trump

    15 June 2018 - Fox News (My TV, so .... no link.) :)
    The issue on immigration is the Roman Model. If you have puppet states or subjects, they should be able to move to their mother country. Greeks could become Roman Citizens. Anatolians became Romans with Roman benefits. Saul of Tarsus was a Roman citizen.

    So if you are an imperialist nation that controls other lands political future, they should have the right of movement to the Imperial lands. Washington with their wars is an Empire. You have the Monroe Doctrine with the Roosevelt Corollary ruling over the lands of Latin America. Ask yourself if Russia can have a military base in Venezuela. No they are not allowed to. By Washington decree of they would get a war and invaded. This is colonialism. If racist Americans don't want any 'brown skinned' Venezuelans (I know two personally) coming across the border and 'invading 'Murica' and making it any less white or whatever nonsense... then stop interfering in the affairs of the Latin Americans. If Washington wants to be an Empire, then they are expected to not be a bag of racists and reject those who want to be Roman citizens.

    Italy is tied into NATO with 'peace keeping operations'... Rome had those too, they were called wars. If Italy were to chastise Washington over more wars in Libya, Syria, Iran and soon Iran and North Korea (if trump and Kim stop holding hands), then the Italians would not be Imperialists with a justification for North Africans and Africans migrating to Italy by boat.

    I am with the new government, but to not appear racist, don't give any reason for anyone to believe you are Imperialists and then wash your hand of the situation. Italy has enough on their plate with a recession, and stagnation. They can't even take care of their own citizens, and this is why people are flocking to the hate-filled Lega, which is neo-nazis in their approach on Gypsies and other minorities. They want Italy to work for them, not for the rest of the world. Italy is in enough debt and can barely take care of Italy.

    Good Luck to Italy in working this out:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...deadline-looms

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Messier 67 View Post
    The issue on immigration is the Roman Model. If you have puppet states or subjects, they should be able to move to their mother country. Greeks could become Roman Citizens. Anatolians became Romans with Roman benefits. Saul of Tarsus was a Roman citizen.

    So if you are an imperialist nation that controls other lands political future, they should have the right of movement to the Imperial lands. Washington with their wars is an Empire. You have the Monroe Doctrine with the Roosevelt Corollary ruling over the lands of Latin America. Ask yourself if Russia can have a military base in Venezuela. No they are not allowed to. By Washington decree of they would get a war and invaded. This is colonialism. If racist Americans don't want any 'brown skinned' Venezuelans (I know two personally) coming across the border and 'invading 'Murica' and making it any less white or whatever nonsense... then stop interfering in the affairs of the Latin Americans. If Washington wants to be an Empire, then they are expected to not be a bag of racists and reject those who want to be Roman citizens.

    Italy is tied into NATO with 'peace keeping operations'... Rome had those too, they were called wars. If Italy were to chastise Washington over more wars in Libya, Syria, Iran and soon Iran and North Korea (if trump and Kim stop holding hands), then the Italians would not be Imperialists with a justification for North Africans and Africans migrating to Italy by boat.

    I am with the new government, but to not appear racist, don't give any reason for anyone to believe you are Imperialists and then wash your hand of the situation. Italy has enough on their plate with a recession, and stagnation. They can't even take care of their own citizens, and this is why people are flocking to the hate-filled Lega, which is neo-nazis in their approach on Gypsies and other minorities. They want Italy to work for them, not for the rest of the world. Italy is in enough debt and can barely take care of Italy.

    Good Luck to Italy in working this out:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...deadline-looms

    That’s an old post, The Italian Government has fallen, and we still don't know who the next Prime Minister is going to be or if they re gonna give the job back to Conte again.

    Also the alliances are changing, (“inciuccio”) and may be that the next government will be Left leaning.

    The Lega is being sidelined by the Democrats.

    The United States as an Economic and Military Power exercising its influence on other Countries, is hardly comparable with other Ancient Empires, in objectives, methods, and tactics.

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