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Thread: Bronze Age Epirus

  1. #26
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    Maps are really bad actually.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Mycenean world


    Pitane Location is wrong as much as distance between Athens and Thebes

    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Greek world or Selloi or Hellanes or Graikoi or MYRMIDONES
    Who were living south of that region? Pelasgian? Attica and Morea Peninsula?


    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post

    In previous topic, one guy was telling that there is no north invasion, Dorians didn't came to north, they came to near Lake Doris-Central Attica. So ???

    An other Failure, Milet / Milletos which is of the the first Greek colony(Check the Mycenaean Map), but not shown. Ionia should be more coastal and should reach more south.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovani View Post
    So Mycaneans were not Greeks?
    No population ever identified as 'Mycenaean', apart likely from those who inhabited the city of Mycenae.

    According to sources like Herodotus, Hellenes were a tribe that expanded from the region of Phthiotis, roughly between Orchomenus and Iolcus (see the maps above to understand where Phthiotis is). That expansion likely happened after the Bronze Age.

    Athenians and Ionians weren't really Hellenes. Herodotus who was from a Dorian colony and had probably Dorian/Karian ancestry clearly associated the term 'Hellenes' with the Dorians. Ionians started being considered Hellenes probably after the creation of the Delphic Amphictyony.

    The Athenians were saying they were Pelasgians because they descended mostly from the pre-Doric, 'Mycenaean' related population of Bronze Age Attica.

    Herodotus describes a movement from Phthiotis to NW Greece (around Pindus mountains), where he says the Dorians were called 'ethnos Makednon' and then a movement south.
    The Dorians of Peloponnese had expanded in a region which was formely Achaean / Arcado-Cypriot. ('Mycenaean' related)
    The Dorians of Crete had expanded in a region where, if we trust Homer, there were Achaeans, Pelasgians, Eteocretans etc

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovani View Post
    So Mycaneans were not Greeks?
    I said clearly.

    Proto-Greeks were not Myceneans, neither Minoans,
    Even in Iliad is obvious the Myrmidones and the Myceneans,

    when we say Myceneans is a clear IE culture of long corridor palaces etc
    it is one of the ancestors of Hellenic culture
    But Proto-greeks is another story,
    We speak about the Dorians, the Epirotans the Makedonians,
    who were in touch with Myceneans,

    Proto-Greek is earlier by few centuries to Mycenean
    and is the ones who stabilize Helladic space to a unification movement
    after the collapse of Mycenae and Sea peoples.

    These tribes called NW Greek plus Mycenae is IE branch of ancient Greeks as we know them,
    Minoans is still a wondering if IE or not,
    but with Minoans and Pelasgians is the Greek nationality as created among 1100 to 900 BC,
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    ^^You've clearly said it, and you're clearly wrong, as usual.

    I would recommend getting some linguistics papers on the internet and reading them, not what passes for linguistics and archaeology on ultra-nationalist propaganda sites.

    You're just as bad as some of the Albanian posters.


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    Thank you,

    Want me to expand and give Bibliography?

    or just to stop here?

    just to mention Olivier Masson.

    in fact among Proto-Greek and proto-Brygian (Greco-Phrygian)
    there is a lot of fault dialectisme as Brixhe describes,
    I am sure everybody understands that.

    the maps are not mine,
    neither designed by some central Inteligence bureaux
    they belong to linguists like
    Vlad Georgiev, F G Sturtz, Hammond, Hoffman etc


    Mycenean is a language that stoped spoken around 1150-1000 BC
    except some isolated parts and Cyprus.
    after that we have the maturity of Proto-Greek to the well known Greek dialects.
    while the core of Proto-Greek remain as a kind of 'barbarian' sound
    the NW dialects.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Not according to the authors. They clearly and always locate Glykys Limin in Epirus.
    They hypothesized the Mycenean base for sustaining the colony was either Aitoloakarnania or Pylos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As I said, it seems to me, and it is explicitly stated in some of these sources that the Mycenaeans were an intrusive element in Epirus.
    Yes, and my point was that it was a colony, Epirus was not Mycenean just as China was not British simply because of one colony. I am not trying to argue that the Mycenean civilization had no influence there, I think we can agree on a limited and temporary intrusion, as you said, plus cultural influences that are normal between neighboring regions.

    The point was being made in the other thread (now I can't quote it) that Epirus was heavily settled by Myceneans but there's just no proof for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    I said clearly
    Proto-Greeks were not Myceneans, neither Minoans,
    Even in Iliad is obvious the Myrmidones and the Myceneans,
    when we say Myceneans is a clear IE culture of long corridor palaces etc
    it is one of the ancestors of Hellenic culture
    But Proto-greeks is another story,
    We speak about the Dorians, the Epirotans the Makedonians,
    who were in touch with Myceneans,
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ^^You've clearly said it, and you're clearly wrong, as usual.
    I would recommend getting some linguistics papers on the internet and reading them, not what passes for linguistics and archaeology on ultra-nationalist propaganda sites.
    You're just as bad as some of the Albanian posters.
    So you are saying he is clearly wrong when he said Mycenaeans are not Greeks and Old Epirotes and Macedonians were Greeks.
    And by saying this he behaves as an ultra-nationalist, right?
    And this as bad as some Albanian posters.
    You got me all confused, on every sentence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Yes, and my point was that it was a colony, Epirus was not Mycenean just as China was not British simply because of one colony. I am not trying to argue that the Mycenean civilization had no influence there, I think we can agree on a limited and temporary intrusion, as you said, plus cultural influences that are normal between neighboring regions.

    The point was being made in the other thread (now I can't quote it) that Epirus was heavily settled by Myceneans but there's just no proof for that.
    But who said that exactly?

    If Yetos is correct, afaiu, the Hellenes were a non-Mycenaean group speaking a 'NW Greek' dialect which expanded south. Similar views are based on things Aristotle said among others, about a tribe of Hellenes formerly called Graecoi in Epirus, about 'ancient Hellas' in Epirus etc.

    If I am correct (I follow Herodotus) the original Hellenes associated with the Dorians originated in Phthiotis, expanded first to NW Greece where they were called 'ethnos Makednon' and then expanded south. If that is true they were 'Mycenaean' related but had expanded to Epirus/West Macedonia before the movement south.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovani View Post
    So you are saying he is clearly wrong when he said Mycenaeans are not Greeks and Old Epirotes and Macedonians were Greeks.
    And by saying this he behaves as an ultra-nationalist, right?
    And this as bad as some Albanian posters.
    You got me all confused, on every sentence.
    1. Yes
    2. Yes
    3. Yes

    That's what I believe.

    See, you were right on everything. Not confused at all. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    1. Yes
    2.Yes
    3. Yes
    That's what I believe.
    See, you were right on everything. Not confused at all. :)
    By saying Yetos is wrong when he claims old Macedonians and Epirotes as Greeks, you basically agree with all Albanian posters, who were saying the same thing, but paradoxically you label them ultra-nationalists. It's very confusing.

  11. #36
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    Not necessarily ^^. She could say he's wrong and disagree with both sides
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovani View Post
    By saying Yetos is wrong when he claims old Macedonians and Epirotes as Greeks, you basically agree with all Albanian posters, who were saying the same thing, but paradoxically you label them ultra-nationalists. It's very confusing.
    Albanian posters here believe in a lot of what I consider nonsense: that Greek DERIVES from Albanian, that Greek didn't get to Greece until the BYZANTINE era, some of them seem close to saying Greece was settled FROM Albania, that there is no genetic difference between Greeks and Albanians and on and on. They basically want to deny an ethnic identity to Greeks, and thereby claim all Greek accomplishments for their own.

    It's all total rubbish imo.

    It's also not just that they believe this stuff, it's that they have to bore everyone else with constantly posting about it, starting threads about it, and t-rolling Greeks at every opportunity. That has the opposite effect. When you keep doing this stuff it signals weakness and insecurity, as well as annoying the hell out of everybody and holding themselves up to ridicule.

    One late unlamented poster kept on quoting garbage from some Nordicist German "historian" from the 19th century that Greeks are the product of very late migrations of Slavs and Middle Easterners, even after all the ancient dna came out showing that this "Middle Eastern" ancestry has been present in Greeks since the Bronze Age, and before that the Neolithic, and that the only major change has been a minority of Slavic input. That anthro-fora garbage has no place on a site dedicated to genetics, archaeology and linguistics.

    Unless you're relatively new I don't know how you could have missed all that.

    Just to be clear, I also had to deal with Albanian hating Balkanite t-rolls trying to post their rubbish that Albanians are descended from Ottomans, and aren't "real" Europeans or Balkanites, that they sold out everybody else in the Balkans and posting stories about how terrible they are. Some of our Albanian posters forget all of that.

    I'm an equal opportunity basher of all that nonsense. Stick to the science and linguistics and nobody will have any problems with me. I don't shut down what I consider wrong interpretations unless I can prove there's misrepresentation of data.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Albanian posters here believe in a lot of what I consider nonsense:that there is no difference between Greeks and Albanians, that Greek DERIVES from Albanian, that Greek didn't get to Greece until the BYZANTINE era, some of them seem close to saying Greece was settled FROM Albanian, they claim there is no genetic difference between Greeks and Albanians and on and on. They basically want to deny an ethnic identity to Greeks, and thereby claim all Greek accomplishments for their own.

    It's all total rubbish imo.

    It's also not just that they believe this stuff, it's that they have to bore everyone else with constantly posting about it, starting threads about it, and t-rolling Greeks at every opportunity.

    One late unlamented poster kept on quoting garbage from some Nordicist German "historian" from the 19th century that Greeks are the product of very late migrations of Slavs and Middle Easterners, even after all the ancient dna came out showing that this "Middle Eastern" ancestry has been present in Greeks since the Bronze Age, and before that the Neolithic, and that the only major change has been a minority of Slavic input. That anthro-fora garbage has no place on a site dedicated to genetics, archaeology and linguistics.

    Unless you're relatively new I don't know how you could have missed all that.

    Just to be clear, I also had to deal with Albanian hating Balkanite t-rolls trying to post their rubbish that Albanians are descended from Ottomans, and aren't "real" Europeans or Balkanites. and posting stories about how terrible they are. Some of our Albanian posters forget all of that.

    I'm an equal opportunity basher of all that nonsense. Stick to the science and linguistics and nobody will have any problems with me. I don't shut down what I consider wrong interpretations unless I can prove there's misrepresentation of data.
    Most of Albanians do not believe what you are stating here.....you have misunderstood our posts here.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Albanian posters here believe in a lot of what I consider nonsense:that there is no difference between Greeks and Albanians, that Greek DERIVES from Albanian, that Greek didn't get to Greece until the BYZANTINE era, some of them seem close to saying Greece was settled FROM Albanian, they claim there is no genetic difference between Greeks and Albanians and on and on. They basically want to deny an ethnic identity to Greeks, and thereby claim all Greek accomplishments for their own. It's all total rubbish imo.It's also not just that they believe this stuff, it's that they have to bore everyone else with constantly posting about it, starting threads about it, and t-rolling Greeks at every opportunity.One late unlamented poster kept on quoting garbage from some Nordicist German "historian" from the 19th century that Greeks are the product of very late migrations of Slavs and Middle Easterners, even after all the ancient dna came out showing that this "Middle Eastern" ancestry has been present in Greeks since the Bronze Age, and before that the Neolithic, and that the only major change has been a minority of Slavic input. That anthro-fora garbage has no place on a site dedicated to genetics, archaeology and linguistics. Unless you're relatively new I don't know how you could have missed all that. Just to be clear, I also had to deal with Albanian hating Balkanite t-rolls trying to post their rubbish that Albanians are descended from Ottomans, and aren't "real" Europeans or Balkanites. and posting stories about how terrible they are. Some of our Albanian posters forget all of that. I'm an equal opportunity basher of all that nonsense. Stick to the science and linguistics and nobody will have any problems with me. I don't shut down what I consider wrong interpretations unless I can prove there's misrepresentation of data.
    Is it there a possibility that instead all of them being all wrong in every aspect to the point you consider their beliefs as nonsense it is you that might not have sufficient knowledge about linguistics, languages, ethnography, history, epigraphy and many other disciplines necessary to rule out their beliefs such as `nonsense` or `rubbish`, as part of a fair judgement? Beside this, if they express their beliefs in a honest way, how does this go against forum policies, which very often you paradoxically consider for your convenience, to be acceptable only as interpretations of scholars actual jobs.

    As far as I noticed, it's not true, that Albanians used this forum or similar forums for what it matters, to bully the Greeks, quite the opposite seems to be true , not only the Greeks and Serbs have come up with the craziest theories about their idealized past, but most of them haven`t lost any chance to attack the very essence of Albanian history, culture and pride.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Most of Albanians do not believe what you are stating here.....you have misunderstood our posts here.


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    Well, I'm glad to hear it.

    Did I ever see that stuff from you? Have I seen it from Johane Derite? No, I haven't, by and large. The new poster "Ernekar" seems different as well.

    However, I am almost quoting verbatim from pms sent to me and from material posted by the likes of DuPidh, Laberia, Lab, and others. I'm not making it up, and if you're honest you would admit it. You'd also admit that I've done the best I could to stop people from t-rolling Albanians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    But who said that exactly?

    If Yetos is correct, afaiu, the Hellenes were a non-Mycenaean group speaking a 'NW Greek' dialect which expanded south. Similar views are based on things Aristotle said among others, about a tribe of Hellenes formerly called Graecoi in Epirus, about 'ancient Hellas' in Epirus etc.

    If I am correct (I follow Herodotus) the original Hellenes associated with the Dorians originated in Phthiotis, expanded first to NW Greece where they were called 'ethnos Makednon' and then expanded south. If that is true they were 'Mycenaean' related but had expanded to Epirus/West Macedonia before the movement south.
    Unfortunately I don't remember exactly who said what and the posts have been deleted, but someone said it, someone even had a map, I remember Yetos had another map claiming to represent the proto-Greek area, then Angela cited the Encyclopedia Britannica, which stated that Epirus was settled by Greek-speakers associated with Myceneans since the Neolithic. I suspected this was wrong and after learning some things here I am convinced it is.

    As long as there is a consensus on the continuity of Mycenean and Homeric Greek I will accept it since I am not a linguist to interpret Linear B on my own. As for the Hellenes, as they were probably only one of several Greek-speaking groups they might have been central to the Greeks gaining consciousness about being one people, but I am more interested in the origins of Greek speakers in general. Were the Myceneans the first ones to arrive to the region? Were they the only ones? Were they even linguistically homogenous? I would like to know these answers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    But who said that exactly?

    If Yetos is correct, afaiu, the Hellenes were a non-Mycenaean group speaking a 'NW Greek' dialect which expanded south. Similar views are based on things Aristotle said among others, about a tribe of Hellenes formerly called Graecoi in Epirus, about 'ancient Hellas' in Epirus etc.

    If I am correct (I follow Herodotus) the original Hellenes associated with the Dorians originated in Phthiotis, expanded first to NW Greece where they were called 'ethnos Makednon' and then expanded south. If that is true they were 'Mycenaean' related but had expanded to Epirus/West Macedonia before the movement south.
    As you wrote above, I think much of the apparent misunderstanding in this thread stems from you and Yetos using "Hellenes" to specifically refer to the identity that emerged from perhaps a tribe in Thessaly to slowly encompass the whole Greek-speaking world and this being misunderstood as referring to all Greek speakers, including those that were outside the area of Mycenaean emergence. West Greek speakers (mostly under the subcategory "Dorians") themselves quite likely didn't inhabit parts of southern Greece until the Dark Ages, after all, and the Epirotes themselves were plausibly/possibly (North)West Greek-speaking with some Illyrian and other elements.

    I think Yetos actually summed it up quite well with "These tribes called NW Greek plus Mycenae is IE branch of ancient Greeks as we know them...but with Minoans and Pelasgians is the Greek nationality as created among 1100 to 900 BC" (well, likely a bit later) i.e. language vs the development of a certain ethnic identity. The latter can be at least somewhat explored in the case of the ancient Greeks since they left enough writings about their emic identities versus the rest of the ancient Balkans. Historians like Jonathan Hall or Irad Malkin have written quite a bit on that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovani View Post
    Is it there a possibility that instead all of them being all wrong in every aspect to the point you consider their beliefs as nonsense it is you that might not have sufficient knowledge about linguistics, languages, ethnography, history, epigraphy and many other disciplines necessary to rule out their beliefs such as `nonsense` or `rubbish`, as part of a fair judgement? Beside this, if they express their beliefs in a honest way, how does this go against forum policies, which very often you paradoxically consider acceptable, for your convenience, to be acceptable only as interpretations of scholars actual jobs.

    As far as I noticed, it's not true, that Albanians used this forum or similar forums for what it matters, to bully the Greeks, quite the opposite seems to be true , not only the Greeks and Serbs have come up with the craziest theories about their idealized past, but most of them haven`t lost any chance to attack the very essence of Albanian history, culture and pride.
    I studied these matters at university and since university. I've been involved in this community for ten years. I don't go out on a limb with wild, unproven hypothesis. I stick pretty close to what is the consensus and what can be proven through genetics, archaeology and linguistics. I don't care what they show. If the data changes, I change my opinion. I have no horse in this race, and even if I did, my personal integrity wouldn't allow me to argue in contradiction to the evidence unless the data was faulty or the interpretation was illogical, or, of course, if there was some sort of dishonesty involved.

    To insist on quoting Fayrmeyer ad nauseam after we have ancient dna from Greece is t-rollish behavior. The musings of someone from the 19th century, who knew nothing about genetics, when the field didn't even exist, are irrelevant in the field of population genetics, especially when he was a blatant racist of the Noridicist variety who couldn't believe that the "dark" Greeks created Greek civilization.

    The people posting that kind of material admit, have admitted to me that the science is against them, but they don't care. They feel that "common sense", what they were taught as children and in schools is correct, and all the "experts" are wrong. It's all a big conspiracy where all these people are being influenced by Greeks to take their "side". This is borderline "crazy" behavior. It's like Creationists saying the earth was created 6000 years ago, and the sun travels around the earth because that's what the Bible and common sense tells them, and geologists and astronomers don't know what they're talking about.

    I suggest that you download and read some linguistics papers on the "Balkan" branch of the Indo-European languages, and that you read the papers on genetics here, with specific attention to the ones which highlight ancient Balkan, including Greek ancient dna:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ation-Genetics

    I think you'll see these outlandish claims are either in contradiction to established norms in academia, or they are based on no data whatsoever and just arise from what some people wish to be true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Unfortunately I don't remember exactly who said what and the posts have been deleted, but someone said it, someone even had a map, I remember Yetos had another map claiming to represent the proto-Greek area, then Angela cited the Encyclopedia Britannica, which stated that Epirus was settled by Greek-speakers associated with Myceneans since the Neolithic. I suspected this was wrong and after learning some things here I am convinced it is.

    As long as there is a consensus on the continuity of Mycenean and Homeric Greek I will accept it since I am not a linguist to interpret Linear B on my own. As for the Hellenes, as they were probably only one of several Greek-speaking groups they might have been central to the Greeks gaining consciousness about being one people, but I am more interested in the origins of Greek speakers in general. Were the Myceneans the first ones to arrive to the region? Were they the only ones? Were they even linguistically homogenous? I would like to know these answers.
    I think the map Yetos posted was based on Georgiev's view that pre-Greek toponyms (the ss/nth type of stuff, and others) start to dramatically dwindle beyond a certain line that roughly runs from central Thessaly to Aetolia and instead various toponyms he thought could be explained as rather archaic Greek are more prominent. It's very theoretical of course like all those theories based on scant linguistic evidence, though the view that the proto-Greeks entered Greece via Albania and Pelagonia has been expressed by others too, Hammond comes to mind but via archaeological means. It's quite possible that we'll actually never find out the exact paths certain IE branches took before they arrived to their final destination via ancient DNA either but who knows.

    A recent volume on the ancient Greek dialects is "Studies in Ancient Greek Dialects - From Central Greece to the Black Sea" ed. Giannakis, Crespo and Filos. This chapter deals with what you're interested in. A couple of papers by Andrew Garrett on IE dialects were interesting too since they make mention of Mycenaean Greek and the space it potentially occupies between IE, proto-Greek and the other Greek dialects. I think I linked you to one of them in the past.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Unfortunately I don't remember exactly who said what and the posts have been deleted, but someone said it, someone even had a map, I remember Yetos had another map claiming to represent the proto-Greek area, then Angela cited the Encyclopedia Britannica, which stated that Epirus was settled by Greek-speakers associated with Myceneans since the Neolithic. I suspected this was wrong and after learning some things here I am convinced it is.

    As long as there is a consensus on the continuity of Mycenean and Homeric Greek I will accept it since I am not a linguist to interpret Linear B on my own. As for the Hellenes, as they were probably only one of several Greek-speaking groups they might have been central to the Greeks gaining consciousness about being one people, but I am more interested in the origins of Greek speakers in general. Were the Myceneans the first ones to arrive to the region? Were they the only ones? Were they even linguistically homogenous? I would like to know these answers.
    You have made errors in every single post in this thread, and you are continuing your losing streak.

    If you're going to say I (or the Encyclopedia Britannica) said something, darn well make sure you're accurate. I'm tired of constantly correcting the record with you.
    While you're at it, learn the difference between INFLUENCE in terms of GENETICS AND MIGRATION, and CULTURE.

    This is what I said and QUOTED:

    "I linked the article for one purpose and one purpose only, i.e. for the fact that The Encyclopedia Britannica endorsed that Epirus was part of the peripheral Mycenaean world and that this has been shown through multiple sites having material evidence of Mycenaean links.


    "Epirus has been occupied since at least Neolithic times by seafarers along the coast and by hunters and shepherds in the interior who brought with them the Greek language.[1]These people buried their leaders in large tumulicontaining shaft graves, similar to the Mycenaean tombs, indicating an ancestral link between Epirus and the Mycenaean civilization.[1] A number of Mycenaean remains have been found in Epirus,[9] especially at the most important ancient religious sites in the region, the Necromanteion (Oracle of the Dead) on the Acheron river, and the Oracle of Zeus at Dodona.[1]"

    The number 1 refers to the Encyclopedia.

    This is the consensus: that's why it wound up in an encyclopedia. Had the authors of the article wished to cite books and papers, it would have been an easy thing to do."

    I then proceeded to find and post other papers.

    Have I bought Tandy's book and checked every site to see if it's pots or also tumuli at those sites on the map? No, I haven't. Since it's of such importance to some posters, I expected them to get the information and get back to us.


    The fact remains that nothing I've seen so far invalidates that information. There was a spread of Mycenaean CULTURAL INFLUENCE in a lot of EPIRUS, as the Mycenaean sphere expanded northwards toward Macedonia and toward Epirus. There are indications of some population movement in specific places, one tumuli, for example, in a paper I provided. The most important one, Glykys Limin, the encyclopedia didn't even mention, but I provided a paper about it, and YES, it is in Epirus, although an offshoot of another colony. That's what Mycenaean colonies did, and Greek city states of the first millennium BC. Colonies spawn their own colonies.

    How much actual population "replacement" occurred? It's impossible to say, although perhaps we could cautiously say that given what we know so far perhaps it was limited to or at least heaviest in the more southern regions. We'll have to wait for more ancient dna to see.

    So far as I know the consensus is that Greek arrived in Greece with the Mycenaeans. If anyone has PROOF to the contrary, that would be interesting.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    They hypothesized the Mycenean base for sustaining the colony was either Aitoloakarnania or Pylos.



    Yes, and my point was that it was a colony, Epirus was not Mycenean just as China was not British simply because of one colony. I am not trying to argue that the Mycenean civilization had no influence there, I think we can agree on a limited and temporary intrusion, as you said, plus cultural influences that are normal between neighboring regions.

    The point was being made in the other thread (now I can't quote it) that Epirus was heavily settled by Myceneans but there's just no proof for that.
    I don't know who said Epirus was heavily settled by Mycenaeans. I certainly didn't.

    The comparison with China is really not apt.

    I doubt that the Mycenaeans were HUGELY different genetically from the people to their north. It's all Neolithic farmer central for much of its history, after all. They got some Indo-European in the north too. It's just clear that they were a different group, with a different culture. The exact nature of the autosomal and uniparental signal differences is going to have to wait for more ancient dna for us to be able to quantify it.

    Of course, as time went on, differences accumulated. I think there was more Gothic and Germanic and Slavic north of Greece proper because they took more of the brunt of the invasions. Then people moved around. In those days there were no border guards and lines on maps, so everything got even more mixed.

    So, even though modern mainland Greeks derive a huge amount of their ancestry from Mycenaean times, they've picked up other influences, and more were picked up by their northern neighbors.

    No modern ethnicity is a clone of its most distant ancestors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    There was a spread of Mycenaean CULTURAL INFLUENCE in a lot of EPIRUS, as the Mycenaean sphere expanded northwards in Macedonia and toward Epirus.
    Yep, that's indeed true, there have been Mycenaean findings in southern Epirus and Pieria (southern Macedonia) to my knowledge but both areas (and even parts of Thessaly) seem to have been rather peripheral to the Mycenaean world itself. The exact relationship isn't certain but there certainly has been uncovered evidence of cultural exchange where its very existence was uncertain some time ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    So far as I know the consensus is that Greek arrived in Greece with the Mycenaeans. If anyone has PROOF to the contrary, that would be interesting.
    I'm sure you're aware of much of this but strictly speaking, what we call "Mycenaean" covers the period from roughly the 17th century on (the Late Helladic), until the Bronze Age collapse. The scenarios for the coming of the proto/early Greek speakers (excluding some less argued-for ones) have them in "Greece", even southern Greece, at potentially any time from the 23th century until the emergence of the Mycenean sphere when the Linear B findings definitively tell us that Greek speakers could be found as far as Crete. And indeed Linear B Greek itself seems like a dialect with certain innovations as far as I know, not a proto-Greek that can encompass all attested Greek dialects, so a certain period of separation from the rest before its attestation seems to be indicated. Mallory basically covers the broad theories in e.g. "In Search of the Indo-Europeans" and we've discussed this topic before on this forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    I said clearly.

    Proto-Greeks were not Myceneans, neither Minoans,
    Even in Iliad is obvious the Myrmidones and the Myceneans,

    when we say Myceneans is a clear IE culture of long corridor palaces etc
    it is one of the ancestors of Hellenic culture
    But Proto-greeks is another story,
    We speak about the Dorians, the Epirotans the Makedonians,
    who were in touch with Myceneans,

    Proto-Greek is earlier by few centuries to Mycenean
    and is the ones who stabilize Helladic space to a unification movement
    after the collapse of Mycenae and Sea peoples.

    These tribes called NW Greek plus Mycenae is IE branch of ancient Greeks as we know them,
    Minoans is still a wondering if IE or not,
    but with Minoans and Pelasgians is the Greek nationality as created among 1100 to 900 BC,
    In Iliad Mycenae was a major city. Myceneans were probably the Acheans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    Athenians and Ionians weren't really Hellenes. Herodotus who was from a Dorian colony and had probably Dorian/Karian ancestry clearly associated the term 'Hellenes' with the Dorians. Ionians started being considered Hellenes probably after the creation of the Delphic Amphictyony.
    I have remember that "None of Ionians worship to Zeus" But I am not sure where did I read it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    I have remember that "None of Ionians worship to Zeus" But I am not sure where did I read it.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenism_(religion).
    .
    you talking about the above?
    .
    in the end, people can pray to any named god as there is only one god .................unless you think there is more than one god
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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