Bronze Age Epirus

[Yetos]

Again we play the same stupid game of pub Linguistics.


I repeat so some to understand it clear,

Mycenean world

Greek world or Selloi or Hellanes or Graikoi or MYRMIDONES

for some to understand,

MAKEDONIAN EPIROTAN AETOLIAN and DORIAN are the Hellenes,
not Myceneans Not Minoans


WHEN SOME REALIZE THAT MYRMIDONES OF ACHILLEUS ARE THE GRAIKOI THE SELLOI THE HELLENES
AND WERE NOT MYCENEANS OR MINOANS BUT NW DIALECTS,

NW Dialects or Hellenic

Doris Epiros and Makedonia

 

[Angela]

^^Watch it.

As for your diatribe, I have yet to see you provide evidence from the book that all those circles are actually "settlements" representing a significant inflow of new people, and not trade emporia with transitory personnel.

The entire topic of the Dorians, where they came from, their genetic make up, etc. is extremely contentious. There is no proof for any particular point of view yet, so stop presenting it as if it's holy writ straight from the mountain top.

 

[Sile]

There where 14 epirote tribes
Epirus was inhabited by three major tribes: Chaonians, Molossians and Thesprotians. Each of them consists
of a number of small tribes or subtribes.
In 1841 the German historian Karl Friedrich Merleker (1803
-
1872) compiled a list comprised of 36 subtribes of the three
main Epirote tribes he found in the ancient sources
:


North of Epirus was renamed Epirus Nova after taking it from the Macedonians

Latin name(s): Iepirum Novum - Epiros Nova
Variants: Epirus Nova (Iepirum Novum)

Map: Barrington Atlas, 2000, pl. 101 K3
Note: between 146 and 27 BC Epirus was part of the provincia Macedonia; between 27 BC and 103/114 AD the southern part of Epirus belonged to the provincia Achaea, and from 103/114 AD on it became a separate provincia Epirus, that was called Epirus Vetus under Diocletianus; the northern part remained part of Macedonia and joined a separate provincia called Epirus Nova under Diocletianus that also included the southern end of Illyricum ( modern Montenegro )

 

[Jovani]

for some to understand,MAKEDONIAN EPIROTAN AETOLIAN and DORIAN are the Hellenes, not Myceneans Not Minoans

So Mycaneans were not Greeks?

 

[blevins13]

So Mycaneans were not Greeks?

This is new.....!!!!????


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[Boreas]

Maps are really bad actually.

Mycenean world

Pitane Location is wrong as much as distance between Athens and Thebes

Greek world or Selloi or Hellanes or Graikoi or MYRMIDONES

Who were living south of that region? Pelasgian? Attica and Morea Peninsula?

In previous topic, one guy was telling that there is no north invasion, Dorians didn't came to north, they came to near Lake Doris-Central Attica. So ???

An other Failure, Milet / Milletos which is of the the first Greek colony(Check the Mycenaean Map), but not shown. Ionia should be more coastal and should reach more south.

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

So Mycaneans were not Greeks?

No population ever identified as 'Mycenaean', apart likely from those who inhabited the city of Mycenae.

According to sources like Herodotus, Hellenes were a tribe that expanded from the region of Phthiotis, roughly between Orchomenus and Iolcus (see the maps above to understand where Phthiotis is). That expansion likely happened after the Bronze Age.

Athenians and Ionians weren't really Hellenes. Herodotus who was from a Dorian colony and had probably Dorian/Karian ancestry clearly associated the term 'Hellenes' with the Dorians. Ionians started being considered Hellenes probably after the creation of the Delphic Amphictyony.

The Athenians were saying they were Pelasgians because they descended mostly from the pre-Doric, 'Mycenaean' related population of Bronze Age Attica.

Herodotus describes a movement from Phthiotis to NW Greece (around Pindus mountains), where he says the Dorians were called 'ethnos Makednon' and then a movement south.
The Dorians of Peloponnese had expanded in a region which was formely Achaean / Arcado-Cypriot. ('Mycenaean' related)
The Dorians of Crete had expanded in a region where, if we trust Homer, there were Achaeans, Pelasgians, Eteocretans etc

 

[Yetos]

So Mycaneans were not Greeks?

I said clearly.

Proto-Greeks were not Myceneans, neither Minoans,
Even in Iliad is obvious the Myrmidones and the Myceneans,

when we say Myceneans is a clear IE culture of long corridor palaces etc
it is one of the ancestors of Hellenic culture
But Proto-greeks is another story,
We speak about the Dorians, the Epirotans the Makedonians,
who were in touch with Myceneans,

Proto-Greek is earlier by few centuries to Mycenean
and is the ones who stabilize Helladic space to a unification movement
after the collapse of Mycenae and Sea peoples.

These tribes called NW Greek plus Mycenae is IE branch of ancient Greeks as we know them,
Minoans is still a wondering if IE or not,
but with Minoans and Pelasgians is the Greek nationality as created among 1100 to 900 BC,

 

[Angela]

^^You've clearly said it, and you're clearly wrong, as usual.

I would recommend getting some linguistics papers on the internet and reading them, not what passes for linguistics and archaeology on ultra-nationalist propaganda sites.

You're just as bad as some of the Albanian posters.

 

[Yetos]

Thank you,

Want me to expand and give Bibliography?

or just to stop here?

just to mention Olivier Masson.

in fact among Proto-Greek and proto-Brygian (Greco-Phrygian)
there is a lot of fault dialectisme as Brixhe describes,
I am sure everybody understands that.

the maps are not mine,
neither designed by some central Inteligence bureaux
they belong to linguists like
Vlad Georgiev, F G Sturtz, Hammond, Hoffman etc


Mycenean is a language that stoped spoken around 1150-1000 BC
except some isolated parts and Cyprus.
after that we have the maturity of Proto-Greek to the well known Greek dialects.
while the core of Proto-Greek remain as a kind of 'barbarian' sound
the NW dialects.

 

[Ownstyler]

Not according to the authors. They clearly and always locate Glykys Limin in Epirus.

They hypothesized the Mycenean base for sustaining the colony was either Aitoloakarnania or Pylos.

As I said, it seems to me, and it is explicitly stated in some of these sources that the Mycenaeans were an intrusive element in Epirus.

Yes, and my point was that it was a colony, Epirus was not Mycenean just as China was not British simply because of one colony. I am not trying to argue that the Mycenean civilization had no influence there, I think we can agree on a limited and temporary intrusion, as you said, plus cultural influences that are normal between neighboring regions.

The point was being made in the other thread (now I can't quote it) that Epirus was heavily settled by Myceneans but there's just no proof for that.

 

[Jovani]

I said clearly
Proto-Greeks were not Myceneans, neither Minoans,
Even in Iliad is obvious the Myrmidones and the Myceneans,
when we say Myceneans is a clear IE culture of long corridor palaces etc
it is one of the ancestors of Hellenic culture
But Proto-greeks is another story,
We speak about the Dorians, the Epirotans the Makedonians,
who were in touch with Myceneans,

^^You've clearly said it, and you're clearly wrong, as usual.
I would recommend getting some linguistics papers on the internet and reading them, not what passes for linguistics and archaeology on ultra-nationalist propaganda sites.
You're just as bad as some of the Albanian posters.

So you are saying he is clearly wrong when he said Mycenaeans are not Greeks and Old Epirotes and Macedonians were Greeks.
And by saying this he behaves as an ultra-nationalist, right?
And this as bad as some Albanian posters.
You got me all confused, on every sentence.

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

Yes, and my point was that it was a colony, Epirus was not Mycenean just as China was not British simply because of one colony. I am not trying to argue that the Mycenean civilization had no influence there, I think we can agree on a limited and temporary intrusion, as you said, plus cultural influences that are normal between neighboring regions.

The point was being made in the other thread (now I can't quote it) that Epirus was heavily settled by Myceneans but there's just no proof for that.

But who said that exactly?

If Yetos is correct, afaiu, the Hellenes were a non-Mycenaean group speaking a 'NW Greek' dialect which expanded south. Similar views are based on things Aristotle said among others, about a tribe of Hellenes formerly called Graecoi in Epirus, about 'ancient Hellas' in Epirus etc.

If I am correct (I follow Herodotus) the original Hellenes associated with the Dorians originated in Phthiotis, expanded first to NW Greece where they were called 'ethnos Makednon' and then expanded south. If that is true they were 'Mycenaean' related but had expanded to Epirus/West Macedonia before the movement south.

 

[Angela]

So you are saying he is clearly wrong when he said Mycenaeans are not Greeks and Old Epirotes and Macedonians were Greeks.
And by saying this he behaves as an ultra-nationalist, right?
And this as bad as some Albanian posters.
You got me all confused, on every sentence.

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes

That's what I believe.

See, you were right on everything. Not confused at all.

 

[Jovani]

1. Yes
2.Yes
3. Yes
That's what I believe.
See, you were right on everything. Not confused at all.

By saying Yetos is wrong when he claims old Macedonians and Epirotes as Greeks, you basically agree with all Albanian posters, who were saying the same thing, but paradoxically you label them ultra-nationalists. It's very confusing.

 

[davef]

Not necessarily ^^. She could say he's wrong and disagree with both sides

 

[Angela]

By saying Yetos is wrong when he claims old Macedonians and Epirotes as Greeks, you basically agree with all Albanian posters, who were saying the same thing, but paradoxically you label them ultra-nationalists. It's very confusing.

Albanian posters here believe in a lot of what I consider nonsense: that Greek DERIVES from Albanian, that Greek didn't get to Greece until the BYZANTINE era, some of them seem close to saying Greece was settled FROM Albania, that there is no genetic difference between Greeks and Albanians and on and on. They basically want to deny an ethnic identity to Greeks, and thereby claim all Greek accomplishments for their own.

It's all total rubbish imo.

It's also not just that they believe this stuff, it's that they have to bore everyone else with constantly posting about it, starting threads about it, and t-rolling Greeks at every opportunity. That has the opposite effect. When you keep doing this stuff it signals weakness and insecurity, as well as annoying the hell out of everybody and holding themselves up to ridicule.

One late unlamented poster kept on quoting garbage from some Nordicist German "historian" from the 19th century that Greeks are the product of very late migrations of Slavs and Middle Easterners, even after all the ancient dna came out showing that this "Middle Eastern" ancestry has been present in Greeks since the Bronze Age, and before that the Neolithic, and that the only major change has been a minority of Slavic input. That anthro-fora garbage has no place on a site dedicated to genetics, archaeology and linguistics.

Unless you're relatively new I don't know how you could have missed all that.

Just to be clear, I also had to deal with Albanian hating Balkanite t-rolls trying to post their rubbish that Albanians are descended from Ottomans, and aren't "real" Europeans or Balkanites, that they sold out everybody else in the Balkans and posting stories about how terrible they are. Some of our Albanian posters forget all of that.

I'm an equal opportunity basher of all that nonsense. Stick to the science and linguistics and nobody will have any problems with me. I don't shut down what I consider wrong interpretations unless I can prove there's misrepresentation of data.

 

[blevins13]

Albanian posters here believe in a lot of what I consider nonsense:that there is no difference between Greeks and Albanians, that Greek DERIVES from Albanian, that Greek didn't get to Greece until the BYZANTINE era, some of them seem close to saying Greece was settled FROM Albanian, they claim there is no genetic difference between Greeks and Albanians and on and on. They basically want to deny an ethnic identity to Greeks, and thereby claim all Greek accomplishments for their own.

It's all total rubbish imo.

It's also not just that they believe this stuff, it's that they have to bore everyone else with constantly posting about it, starting threads about it, and t-rolling Greeks at every opportunity.

One late unlamented poster kept on quoting garbage from some Nordicist German "historian" from the 19th century that Greeks are the product of very late migrations of Slavs and Middle Easterners, even after all the ancient dna came out showing that this "Middle Eastern" ancestry has been present in Greeks since the Bronze Age, and before that the Neolithic, and that the only major change has been a minority of Slavic input. That anthro-fora garbage has no place on a site dedicated to genetics, archaeology and linguistics.

Unless you're relatively new I don't know how you could have missed all that.

Just to be clear, I also had to deal with Albanian hating Balkanite t-rolls trying to post their rubbish that Albanians are descended from Ottomans, and aren't "real" Europeans or Balkanites. and posting stories about how terrible they are. Some of our Albanian posters forget all of that.

I'm an equal opportunity basher of all that nonsense. Stick to the science and linguistics and nobody will have any problems with me. I don't shut down what I consider wrong interpretations unless I can prove there's misrepresentation of data.

Most of Albanians do not believe what you are stating here.....you have misunderstood our posts here.


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[Jovani]

Albanian posters here believe in a lot of what I consider nonsense:that there is no difference between Greeks and Albanians, that Greek DERIVES from Albanian, that Greek didn't get to Greece until the BYZANTINE era, some of them seem close to saying Greece was settled FROM Albanian, they claim there is no genetic difference between Greeks and Albanians and on and on. They basically want to deny an ethnic identity to Greeks, and thereby claim all Greek accomplishments for their own. It's all total rubbish imo.It's also not just that they believe this stuff, it's that they have to bore everyone else with constantly posting about it, starting threads about it, and t-rolling Greeks at every opportunity.One late unlamented poster kept on quoting garbage from some Nordicist German "historian" from the 19th century that Greeks are the product of very late migrations of Slavs and Middle Easterners, even after all the ancient dna came out showing that this "Middle Eastern" ancestry has been present in Greeks since the Bronze Age, and before that the Neolithic, and that the only major change has been a minority of Slavic input. That anthro-fora garbage has no place on a site dedicated to genetics, archaeology and linguistics. Unless you're relatively new I don't know how you could have missed all that. Just to be clear, I also had to deal with Albanian hating Balkanite t-rolls trying to post their rubbish that Albanians are descended from Ottomans, and aren't "real" Europeans or Balkanites. and posting stories about how terrible they are. Some of our Albanian posters forget all of that. I'm an equal opportunity basher of all that nonsense. Stick to the science and linguistics and nobody will have any problems with me. I don't shut down what I consider wrong interpretations unless I can prove there's misrepresentation of data.

Is it there a possibility that instead all of them being all wrong in every aspect to the point you consider their beliefs as nonsense it is you that might not have sufficient knowledge about linguistics, languages, ethnography, history, epigraphy and many other disciplines necessary to rule out their beliefs such as `nonsense` or `rubbish`, as part of a fair judgement? Beside this, if they express their beliefs in a honest way, how does this go against forum policies, which very often you paradoxically consider for your convenience, to be acceptable only as interpretations of scholars actual jobs.

As far as I noticed, it's not true, that Albanians used this forum or similar forums for what it matters, to bully the Greeks, quite the opposite seems to be true , not only the Greeks and Serbs have come up with the craziest theories about their idealized past, but most of them haven`t lost any chance to attack the very essence of Albanian history, culture and pride.

 

[Angela]

Most of Albanians do not believe what you are stating here.....you have misunderstood our posts here.


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Well, I'm glad to hear it.

Did I ever see that stuff from you? Have I seen it from Johane Derite? No, I haven't, by and large. The new poster "Ernekar" seems different as well.

However, I am almost quoting verbatim from pms sent to me and from material posted by the likes of DuPidh, Laberia, Lab, and others. I'm not making it up, and if you're honest you would admit it. You'd also admit that I've done the best I could to stop people from t-rolling Albanians.