Angela
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Since some Albanian members are dying to discuss this topic, I am providing them with a dedicated thread.
"Angela:
I linked the article for one purpose and one purpose only, i.e. for the fact that The Encyclopedia Britannica endorsed that Epirus was part of the peripheral Mycenaean world and that this has been shown through multiple sites having material evidence of Mycenaean links.
"Epirus has been occupied since at least Neolithic times by seafarers along the coast and by hunters and shepherds in the interior who brought with them the Greek language.[1]These people buried their leaders in large tumulicontaining shaft graves, similar to the Mycenaean tombs, indicating an ancestral link between Epirus and the Mycenaean civilization.[1] A number of Mycenaean remains have been found in Epirus,[9] especially at the most important ancient religious sites in the region, the Necromanteion (Oracle of the Dead) on the Acheron river, and the Oracle of Zeus at Dodona.[1]"
The number 1 refers to the Encyclopedia.
This is the consensus: that's why it wound up in an encyclopedia. Had the authors of the article wished to cite books and papers, it would have been an easy thing to do.
There's no need to re-invent the wheel here."
This is the poster Ernekar's response:
"
Originally Posted by Johane Derite
The wikipedia link says the map is created by Megiastis and cites David Tandy as a source. I'm in the process of trying to find a pdf to see if the map accurately represents what his book says.
There is a chance that this David Tandy does say that there are Mycenean remains(by remains they probably mean pottery) at those places(can't find the pdf either).
But then again, i have seen Mycenean pottery even at italian sites which were 100% surely inhabited by locals, and not by myceneans. So mycenean pottery does not indicate mycenean presence, or else great areas of the mediterranean could be classified as mycenean.
And no scholars define settlements as mycenean based only on some small finds of pottery and such. They gotta have the tholos tombs to be able to be properly defined as mycenean, as the tholos is one of the things which the constuct 'Mycenean' has been based on.
If we would go by the pottery=presence method(which i am an opponent of), then half of italy could be defined as illyrian in the iron age(because of presence of illyrian type swords practically everywhere), but those swords are probably just indications of trade across the adriatic.
In the same way, the occurences of mycenean 'remains'/pottery(if the map is actually true), would just be sign of trade or piracy with/by the surrounding groups. And it would be pretty much expected that some mycenean pottery show up in epirus, as its only a few hundred km away from the mycenean core area(peloponnes).
So in my opinion it is very misleading to post such a map while implying some major mycenean presence in epirus, because that can simply not be backed by any of the data we have available."
This is the link to David Tandy's compendium.
https://books.google.com/books?id=8P...ents+in+Epirus
The map which it is claimed is based on his work:
Checking every site against the text seems to require buying the paperback. Without doing that I fail to see how anyone could know it's incorrect.
Some other sources which came up in my search:
The Bronze Age in Epirus:
https://www.archaeology.wiki/blog/20...epirus-part-2/
Bronze Age site of Glykys Limin in Epirus:
https://books.google.com/books?id=r6...Epirus&f=false
"Angela:
I linked the article for one purpose and one purpose only, i.e. for the fact that The Encyclopedia Britannica endorsed that Epirus was part of the peripheral Mycenaean world and that this has been shown through multiple sites having material evidence of Mycenaean links.
"Epirus has been occupied since at least Neolithic times by seafarers along the coast and by hunters and shepherds in the interior who brought with them the Greek language.[1]These people buried their leaders in large tumulicontaining shaft graves, similar to the Mycenaean tombs, indicating an ancestral link between Epirus and the Mycenaean civilization.[1] A number of Mycenaean remains have been found in Epirus,[9] especially at the most important ancient religious sites in the region, the Necromanteion (Oracle of the Dead) on the Acheron river, and the Oracle of Zeus at Dodona.[1]"
The number 1 refers to the Encyclopedia.
This is the consensus: that's why it wound up in an encyclopedia. Had the authors of the article wished to cite books and papers, it would have been an easy thing to do.
There's no need to re-invent the wheel here."
This is the poster Ernekar's response:
"
The wikipedia link says the map is created by Megiastis and cites David Tandy as a source. I'm in the process of trying to find a pdf to see if the map accurately represents what his book says.
There is a chance that this David Tandy does say that there are Mycenean remains(by remains they probably mean pottery) at those places(can't find the pdf either).
But then again, i have seen Mycenean pottery even at italian sites which were 100% surely inhabited by locals, and not by myceneans. So mycenean pottery does not indicate mycenean presence, or else great areas of the mediterranean could be classified as mycenean.
And no scholars define settlements as mycenean based only on some small finds of pottery and such. They gotta have the tholos tombs to be able to be properly defined as mycenean, as the tholos is one of the things which the constuct 'Mycenean' has been based on.
If we would go by the pottery=presence method(which i am an opponent of), then half of italy could be defined as illyrian in the iron age(because of presence of illyrian type swords practically everywhere), but those swords are probably just indications of trade across the adriatic.
In the same way, the occurences of mycenean 'remains'/pottery(if the map is actually true), would just be sign of trade or piracy with/by the surrounding groups. And it would be pretty much expected that some mycenean pottery show up in epirus, as its only a few hundred km away from the mycenean core area(peloponnes).
So in my opinion it is very misleading to post such a map while implying some major mycenean presence in epirus, because that can simply not be backed by any of the data we have available."
This is the link to David Tandy's compendium.
https://books.google.com/books?id=8P...ents+in+Epirus
The map which it is claimed is based on his work:
Checking every site against the text seems to require buying the paperback. Without doing that I fail to see how anyone could know it's incorrect.
Some other sources which came up in my search:
The Bronze Age in Epirus:
https://www.archaeology.wiki/blog/20...epirus-part-2/
Bronze Age site of Glykys Limin in Epirus:
https://books.google.com/books?id=r6...Epirus&f=false