Bronze Age Epirus

Yetos said:
we have to wait and see,
I believe changes are much younger,
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I believe there are several changes....let’s not forget Epirus was completely destroyed after Roman conquest.


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blevins13 said:
I believe there are several changes....let’s not forget Epirus was completely destroyed after Roman conquest.


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Click to expand...

from Broze age collapse which is your primary believe as you stated
till Roman era which you stae now is a millenium difference,
 
Jovani said:
What Yetos' saying seems to be true, but Yetos have some difficulties to name Mycenaens and Proper Hellenes with their real actual name. Mycaneans were a mixture of Pelasgians with Danaic people, while Hellenes were mainly Illyrians represented from Hylleans(or the Heraclidae named by Yllos-Ὕλλος) mixed with Dorians a Pelasgic tribe represented by the sons of Aigimus(Αἰγίμιος).
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If you had said 'more closely related to Illyrians', maybe it would have been more possible.

I think though that the Dorians who expanded south seem to have been, partially related to one population who originally inhabited South Thessaly, maybe during the Bronze Age.
And to the Heraclidae, who seem to have been a different group, theoretically (based apparently on the claims of their descendants) originally from Peloponnese but they were associated with movements in distant places in the myths.
 
Aren't recent studies including the chance of proto-Greek coming from Anatolia? That would make the theories of a Northern origin simply legends as it seems to be the case archaeologically as many have suggested.

It seems evident that whoever came from the North was less civilized and adopted the local culture and could have adopted the language as well, just in a distorted way leading to the creation of many "dialects".
 
A. Papadimitriou said:
If you had said 'more closely related to Illyrians', maybe it would have been more possible.
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I can't. There is no room for my interpretation.

Βουλινῶν ὁμοτέρμονες Ὕλλοι.Οὗτοι δέ φασιν Ὕλλον τὸν Ἡρακλέους αὐτοὺς κατοικίσαι· εἰσὶ δὲ βάρβαροι. Βουλινοὶ δ᾽ εἰσὶν ἔθνος Ἰλλυρικόν.

Bulinoi are called differently Ylloi(Hylleans). They are called like this after Hyllos, Heracles' son and they are barbarians. Bylinoi belong to the Illyrian nation.
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Also what appears to be true that the name Hellenes, is a distortion of Hylleans or Hyllinoi, probably in their dialect.
 
Yetos said:
from Broze age collapse which is your primary believe as you stated
till Roman era which you stae now is a millenium difference,
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Yes...making a point about several changes, not excluding recent ones.


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ihype02 said:
Those are hypotheses based on legends by a certain historian. Nearly all historians agree that Illyrians and Hellenes were two different people. If you are arguing that Dorians and Illyrians were related genetically that might be true but we have not enough proof already, we'll have to wait.
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No they are not, and certainly not only by certain historians. Nearly every respectable historian, who wrote about Hellenic genesis, wrote the same story, including Herodotus, Stabo, Hecateus of Miletus just to mention some. If we want to appear selective, by considering this part of Hellenic history as mythical then, we have to disregard the entire history, which appears to have such mythical characteristics.
Based on these stories, we had three branches of the Dorian race:

1. Hylleans
2. Pamphylians
3. Dymanes

1 migrated to the Peloponnese
2 and 3 migrated to the Anatolia

1 became Hellenes in expense of their former name Hylleans .
2 and 3 were called mostly Dorians instead of Hellenes, because most likely their process of merging to Hellenization as a distinct race was incomplete, since the cradle of proper Hellenes was Peloponnese not Anatolia.
 
We can build several hypothesis most based on pots and burials, but without DNA from Bronze Age Epirus and before that, there is no final proof.


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blevins13 said:
We can build several hypothesis most based on pots and burials, but without DNA from Bronze Age Epirus and before that, there is no final proof.


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The voice of reason.
 
Jovani said:
I can't. There is no room for my interpretation.



Also what appears to be true that the name Hellenes, is a distortion of Hylleans or Hyllinoi, probably in their dialect.
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And that is the Paradox,

we do not know Illyrian language,
we believe it was a ParaCeltic with Germanic elements (Norici),
or alternative modern Albanian could be a 'daughter' language of Illyrian,
or an Aromani dialect could be remnant of Illyrian

We do know enough and reconstruct Brygian language,

Also Ptolemy which is favorite to Albanians due to the Makedonian city of Albanopolis
declares clear ΑΡΧΕΓΟΝΟΣ ΕΛΛΑΣ = Proto-Hellas, start of birth of Hellenes,
Same says Aristotle ΕΛΛΑΔΑΝ ΑΡΧΑΙΑΝ = Ancient Greece

Same when others say
ΩΡΚΙΗΝ ΥΠΕΡ ΑΙΑΝ ΕΡΕΙΔΕΤΑΙ ΕΛΛΑΔΟΣ ΑΡΧΗ,

Strabo gives as bnorder the Egnatia road

So Jovani ,
if these Hylleians sons of Hyllas are the Hellenes, then lived in Epirus,
Not in Illyria,
But the myth say that their land was 1/3 of the Doric Kingdom,
which means x3 the illyria (or Epirus if you like)
very big area for that days,

If Hylleians were illyrians and also Sons of Hercules,
means they were born somewhere of mt Pelion and Olymp,
so Illyrians moved from Central Greece to Illyria?

if Hylleians were the Hellenes as you propose,
Then the reast Dorics as pure Hellenes would also speak Illyrian,
which means Illyrian should be an Hellenic Dialect or a para Greek language.

I think the extra conclusions if accept that myth you mention, have many empties, or paradoxa, or drives to strange unknown devastations and situations,

So I keep my precautions conserning 2 main things,

A) Barbaric were also called the Aetvlians the Makedonians etc other NW Greek dialects
so calling Hylleians Barbaric = nothing special.

B) among Lychnitis and Aeges was the Brygian capital of Edessa
so yes some Illyrians if came before iron age so south, might also lived among Greek tribes.
as some parts of Greece and wider Balkans, even Europe I would dare to say might have not even IEnized.
Remember a slavic tribe at Slavic invansions reached so far south to Peloponese,
same some illyrian tribe might entered Helladic space and allied and unified with Graekoi,
as also Greeks enter and also colonise Illyria.

All are possible,
But i do not believe that dorians were illyrians
neither illyrian was a Greek language,

just to bring some history,

Battle of Erigone among Phillip and Bardyllis
Amyntas search for shelter in Illyrian tribe
Illyrian and Makedonian wars against Romans,

or you Think Illyrians were perfect and did not had fights among their tribes, like the Greeks had,
the case of king Ballaios is characteristic.

I believe, i kept a civilized tone for an imbecile Ι am
 
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Yetos said:
I believe Myceneans came straight to S Greece
and the devastation Giannopoulos describes is what we call Proto-Greek or Hellenic or NW Greeks.
but it just a believe, not to be taken serious plz
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I agree, I started to doubt that it was actually Acheans and not Dorians who burned down the Mycenaean civilisation. I will add some very interesting evidence I have found.
 
ihype02 said:
Fallmerayer was not a nordicist. And northern Slavs are very blond.
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Fallmerayer was one of the most important scholars and intellectuals of XIX century.
 
LABERIA said:
Fallmerayer was one of the most important scholars and intellectuals of XIX century.
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Bosniensis sends a distant hello from TheApricity

Greek are dominating there you are needed to defend poor Albanians.
 
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