Albanian and Illyrian

[Kentel]

I know that the subject has been widely debated here, but could someone summarize in a few words, and without the interference of politic considerations, what is the typology of Albanian and its relation with the Illyrian languages ?

No tricky question here, I'm not an expert of this matter.

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

We don't have any Illyrian texts.

The Greek origin myths associate them with Celts but that theoretically can be a result of later Celtic cultural influences.

The Greek and Roman sources talk about 'Illyrians proper' or 'properly named Illyrians' etc.

From Wikipedia:

(according to) Pomponius Mela (43 AD) the stricto sensu Illyrians lived north of the Taulantii and Enchele on the Adriatic shore;
Pliny the Elder used "properly named Illyrians" (llyrii proprii/proprie dicti for a small people south of Epidaurum, or between Epidaurum (now Cavtat) and Lissus (now Lezhë).

Illyrians proper, as far as I understand, could have inhabited the region from Dubrovnik to North Albania (at least the regions where North and Central Gheg dialects are spoken).
How close their language was to modern languages in the region is something which is impossible to know, imo.

 

[Kentel]

Thank you. That's exactly the kind of clear and concise answer I expected

If I understand well, "Illyrian" is rather an ethnic category - as described by the ancient Greeks - than a distinct linguistic group ?

 

[DuPidh]

I know that the subject has been widely debated here, but could someone summarize in a few words, and without the interference of politic considerations, what is the typology of Albanian and its relation with the Illyrian languages ?

No tricky question here, I'm not an expert of this matter.

Here is the story:

Albanian is the only surviving dialect of Illyrian. Illyrians did not write the language. They wrote with Greek or Latin Alphabet the names of their dead. So the only way to know, is in comparing with existing names of places. let say Dalmatia which was part of Illyria, now Croatia comes from the world Delme of present day Albanian, which means Sheep, Ulcinj a city in Montenegro means wolf in Albanian , Dardania (present day Kosovo) means pear, Illyr means free man in Albanian(since Greeks and Italians had Installed slavery) Illyrians emphasized that they were free, I lire in Albanian. Also the names on burial sites are like The wind (female name) , and others that can not be translated follow Albanian language rules.
Also the genes of a 3000 year old male excavated in Croatia resembles the Albanian genes.

The only one who do not accept this fact are savage Slavs who invaded Illyria, and brought the dark age in a otherwise civilized area. As you can see the way Slavs act now, their main model is barbarism, killing and butchery. I will remind you the war in Bosnia where an animal Slav by name Ratcko Mladic gave candies to children in Bosnia, and killed in cold blooded their parents, 8000 men.So NATO started bombing them to their holes back. So they want to claim now that there was nobody when they came, in the area so they are the rightful historical owners of the land. But thanks to advancement of genetics, it shows that Slavs have Mongolian genes , like N1c, Q, C, all Asiatic genes. So, no matter what they say science is not in their side.

Hope you liked the explanation.

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

Now, concerning more speculative hypotheses, I personally believe that there can be a Trojan connection.

1) The terms Wilusa and the term Illyria, theoretically can have common origin. (that is probably impossible to prove though)
2) The inhabitants of mountainous regions of Sardinia can have Trojan origins (If we trust Pausanias' account. Personally I trust ancient greek accounts but they are often considered to have been wrong)
3) There is the "Illyrian hypothesis" of Alberto Areddu. Areddu asserts that in ancient Sardinia, especially in the most interior area (Barbagia and Ogliastra), the locals spoke a particular branch of Indo-European.
The hypothesis is based on some lexical similarities between Sardinian and Albanian.

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

Thank you. That's exactly the kind of clear and concise answer I expected

If I understand well, "Illyrian" is rather an ethnic category - as described by the ancient Greeks - than a distinct linguistic group ?

I think it was originally the name of an ethnic group. Then the name was used for a geographical region and during Roman times all people from geographical Illyria could have been labeled Illyrians.

 

[Kentel]

DuPidh, as I have said, I won't take into consideration political arguments here, since it doesn't help the debate to go forward.

And: I don't believe in automatic connections between genetics and linguistics.

But, thank you for your toponymic informations, that's actually interesting.

 

[Kentel]

let say Dalmatia which was part of Illyria, now Croatia comes from the world Delme of present day Albanian, which means Sheep, Ulcinj a city in Montenegro means wolf in Albanian , Dardania (present day Kosovo) means pear, Illyr means free man in Albanian(since Greeks and Italians had Installed slavery) Illyrians emphasized that they were free, I lire in Albanian. Also the names on burial sites are like The wind (female name) , and others that can not be translated follow Albanian language rules.

Which language rules are you thinking about ?

There's something puzzling in Albanian, Bulgarian, Macedonian, Romanian and even some Serbian dialects, and this is the use of the post-clitic definite article. I don't claim to connect that with Illyrians, since as far as we know the linguistic unity of this group is not demonstrated, but this feature could indicate the existence of a common influence (substratic ?).

 

[DuPidh]

Which language rules are you thinking about ?

There's something puzzling in Albanian, Bulgarian, Macedonian, Romanian and even some Serbian dialects, and this is the use of the post-clitic definite article. I don't claim to connect that with Illyrians, since as far as we know the linguistic unity of this group is not demonstrated, but this feature could indicate the existence of a common influence (substratic ?).

There is a book by an English historian Neil Malcolm " A short history of Kosovo". In one of his books chapters he explains why Albanian does not come from Thracian language.The argument is Albanian language its not acceptable to say London City. The only way Albanian accepts is City of London. Thracians word for city is Para. Let say one of their main cities was Besa. They called it Besapara. In Albanian language should have been ParaBesa. But the word Besa is also an Albanian word meaning faithful. I am mentioning this because there are also hints that Albanian,(Illyrian), Thracian and Macedonian were related. Let say the name for Macedonia of antiquity was Emathia which has meaning in Albanian, The big one.
So all this similarities of Albanian (Illyrian) language with other ex-ethnic groups of antiquity has made wild speculation of Illyrians getting crazy, living their lands empty and instead of them present day Albanians came from Thracia, or Moesia and all kind of wild, sick fantasies.
So I was refering to answer your question Albanian language spoken rules.

 

[DuPidh]

Now, concerning more speculative hypotheses, I personally believe that there can be a Trojan connection.

1) The terms Wilusa and the term Illyria, theoretically can have common origin. (that is probably impossible to prove though)

I have to agree with you in this observation. Both terms are very similar. Only an idiot can not see the similarity!

 

[Sile]

Here is the story:

Albanian is the only surviving dialect of Illyrian. Illyrians did not write the language. They wrote with Greek or Latin Alphabet the names of their dead. So the only way to know, is in comparing with existing names of places. let say Dalmatia which was part of Illyria, now Croatia comes from the world Delme of present day Albanian, which means Sheep, Ulcinj a city in Montenegro means wolf in Albanian , Dardania (present day Kosovo) means pear, Illyr means free man in Albanian(since Greeks and Italians had Installed slavery) Illyrians emphasized that they were free, I lire in Albanian. Also the names on burial sites are like The wind (female name) , and others that can not be translated follow Albanian language rules.
Also the genes of a 3000 year old male excavated in Croatia resembles the Albanian genes.

The only one who do not accept this fact are savage Slavs who invaded Illyria, and brought the dark age in a otherwise civilized area. As you can see the way Slavs act now, their main model is barbarism, killing and butchery. I will remind you the war in Bosnia where an animal Slav by name Ratcko Mladic gave candies to children in Bosnia, and killed in cold blooded their parents, 8000 men.So NATO started bombing them to their holes back. So they want to claim now that there was nobody when they came, in the area so they are the rightful historical owners of the land. But thanks to advancement of genetics, it shows that Slavs have Mongolian genes , like N1c, Q, C, all Asiatic genes. So, no matter what they say science is not in their side.

Hope you liked the explanation.

Can you link where the word croatia comes from the meaning sheep

 

[Kentel]

Can you link where the word croatia comes from the meaning sheep

If I read well he was referring to Dalmatia (Alb. delme = sheep): "Dalmatia which was part of Illyria, now Croatia".

 

[Sile]

If I read well he was referring to Dalmatia (Alb. delme = sheep): "Dalmatia which was part of Illyria, now Croatia".

Dalmatians where living on the border of modern Austria and slovenia in the late bronze and early iron-age as per Strabo the roman historian

 

[ilir]

liutprand.it/articoliMondo.asp?id=200

An interesting article about this argument

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

Dalmatians where living on the border of modern Austria and slovenia in the late bronze and early iron-age as per Strabo the roman historian

Does he use the terms Austria and Slovenia? No.
At least post what he has written exactly.

 

[Tutkun Arnaut]

Can you link where the word croatia comes from the meaning sheep

He is saying Dalmatia comes from word sheep, not Croatia

 

[Kelmendasi]

Dalmatians where living on the border of modern Austria and slovenia in the late bronze and early iron-age as per Strabo the roman historian

No they weren't, the Dalmatians were occupying coastal southern Croatia which is now called Dalmatia after them

 

[halfalp]

I dont personnally think that Albanian is the remnant of an Illyrian language but more likely to a Daco-Thracian one. For the very few things we know about Illyrian and Illyrian related tribes, they show strong affinity with the centum languages ( while modern albanian dialects are related with the satem ones ) and old venetian. Typically the legendary pirate-princess wich fought the roman republic was called Teuta, wich cognate in differente centum languages like Celtic or Germanic. At the point of antiquity before the roman conquest and even before the central european celtic migration to south-east europe and anatolia, balkans were very multicultural, Illyrian related people and Daco-Thracians were neighboring a lot. There is 2 possibilities either Albanians descend from antic Dardanians related to Thracian ethno-linguistic that were located in actual modern Macedonia and being mountaineous pastoralists they roam here and there until modern times fixed them in actual Albania. Or they were a more northern thracian or dacian tribe, pushed by German and Slavic migrations, until they fixed in their actual territory. Looking that Aromanians, wich the history follow pretty much the second hypothesis, but have a Latin language related to Romanian, i think modern Albanian ( the language ) come from one of the Thracian language located at the boundaries between the Illyrian world and the Daco-Thracian world.