"Barbarian" Genetics-Anglo-Saxons, Lombards and Huns

[Angela]

This is a podcast from Insight featuring Spencer Wells, Razib Khan and Patrick Wyman, a historian specializing in Late Antiquity who also authors a series of quite good podcasts called "The Tides of History".

They don't just talk about those three groups, but do spend the most time on them. They also offer a nice overview and summary of Late Antiquity in general.

It's nice to have geneticists and historians sort of comparing notes on these things, so I recommend it, particularly, perhaps, for people who don't have a background in this period. Of course, as they mention, as more and more samples are tested, things might look different, but as of now, this seems to be the latest word.

See if you get the joke at the end. It's sort of a "nerd" test.

https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the-insight/e/54794596?autoplay=true

 

[Jovialis]

Thanks for posting this Angela, I was looking forward to this podcast. I especially enjoyed from 28:38 on.

 

[Angela]

Thanks for posting this Angela, I was looking forward to this podcast. I especially enjoyed from 28:38 on.

You're very welcome.

I find most of their podcasts pretty good, although rather general.

I unreservedly recommend Patrick Wyman's podcasts for those who haven't spent years reading history books. He's a good summarizer.

 

[Angela]

Razib Khan's blog post on it:

https://blog.insito.me/the-fall-of-rome-and-the-wandering-of-peoples-8417bdb2cafc

 

[bicicleur 2]

What is 'Barbarian'? Is it whatever tribe outside the Roman Empire?

 

[Jovialis]

Razib Khan's blog post on it:

https://blog.insito.me/the-fall-of-rome-and-the-wandering-of-peoples-8417bdb2cafc

Nice way for him to summarize those papers, and put them together into perspective.

 

[Northener]

Nice summary indeed, he forget to tell that the Anglo-Saxons and Nordics did effect the whole coastal NW European zone. All along the North Sea. So not England alone.
They wiped out (gradually) the Celtic language on both sides the Isles and the NW Continent and founded the old Anglo Saxon and Old Frisian language.
Barbarian is a Roman sticker, they had a harsh, rough, but also rich culture see Sutton Hoo, Beowulf etcera with an own kind of alphabet (runes).
In the end they left a footprint in large parts of the world (like the US).

 

[bicicleur 2]

Nice summary indeed, he forget to tell that the Anglo-Saxons and Nordics did effect the whole coastal NW European zone. All along the North Sea. So not England alone.
They wiped out (gradually) the Celtic language on both sides the Isles and the NW Continent and founded the old Anglo Saxon and Old Frisian language.
Barbarian is a Roman sticker, they had a harsh, rough, but also rich culture see Sutton Hoo, Beowulf etcera with an own kind of alphabet (runes).
In the end they left a footprint in large parts of the world (like the US).

how far north did Celtic culture extend in NW Europe, and in what time interval?
were there La Tene Celts, or was it an older branch?

 

[bicicleur 2]

Barbarian is a Roman sticker, they had a harsh, rough, but also rich culture see Sutton Hoo, Beowulf etcera with an own kind of alphabet (runes).
In the end they left a footprint in large parts of the world (like the US).

yes, and what about tribes like the Goths and the Franks, were they also considered barbaric?

 

[Northener]

I guess so, all people above the limes.... Of course the Franks became 'civilised' (Romanized) in Belgium and Paris

 

[Northener]

how far north did Celtic culture extend in NW Europe, and in what time interval?
were there La Tene Celts, or was it an older branch?

The culture even into Friesland, Peter Schrijver (Prof. Celtic Studies Utrecht) stated in a recent publication that the old Frisii spoke a kind of Celtic. He showed that Old Frisian (from the migration time and beyond) was a language of 'Celts acquiring German'. Or German with a Celtic accent. Like the English Old Anglo-Saxon language.

 

[Northener]

And I guess it was mostly an older branche: Bronze Age Central Europe (Unetice/Tumulus/Urnfield) influenced......

 

[CrazyDonkey]

What is 'Barbarian'? Is it whatever tribe outside the Roman Empire?

The term is from the Greek, barbaros, meaning the opposite of polites, or "citizen". The theory is that the speech of non-Greek speakers (particularly from the north?) sounded like "bar-bar-bar" to Greek listeners. The term is found in the Linear B script, as pa-pa-ro, so dates back at least to the Mycenaeans.

I would assume that the term did not include the Minoans (Knossos), Egyptians (Memphis), and Phoenicians (Byblos and Ugarit), who represented superior civilizations that likely viewed the Greeks as rude, rough, and uncultured (or barbarians).

Another possible theory is that the term is related to "barber", which is traceable back to Latin, barba, proto-Italic, *farβā, and possibly PIE, *bʰardʰeh₂, "beard". In that sense, a "barbarian" would be someone who was unshorn.

The term came to mean anyone who was unlettered (illiterate) and violent (uncivilized).

 

[bicicleur 2]

The term is from the Greek, barbaros, meaning the opposite of polites, or "citizen". The theory is that the speech of non-Greek speakers (particularly from the north?) sounded like "bar-bar-bar" to Greek listeners. The term is found in the Linear B script, as pa-pa-ro, so dates back at least to the Mycenaeans.

I would assume that the term did not include the Minoans (Knossos), Egyptians (Memphis), and Phoenicians (Byblos and Ugarit), who represented superior civilizations that likely viewed the Greeks as rude, rough, and uncultured (or barbarians).

Another possible theory is that the term is related to "barber", which is traceable back to Latin, barba, proto-Italic, *farβā, and possibly PIE, *bʰardʰeh₂, "beard". In that sense, a "barbarian" would be someone who was unshorn.

The term came to mean anyone who was unlettered (illiterate) and violent (uncivilized).

so it's a loanword from the Greek and the meaning of the word evolved over time

 

[CrazyDonkey]

so it's a loanword from the Greek and the meaning of the word evolved over time

Or they are cognates, independently traceable back to PIE, with the original meaning, "bearded", forgotten in Greek. That doesn't mean that the Greek term didn't also bleed from southern Italy into Latin.

 

[Govan]

A question I have for Northener is what are Hollanders? I know that when Anglo-Saxon missionaries went to convert Frisians in Utrecht , they partially failed , finally Franks conquered Frisia , it looks like the Franks made Frisia a less swampy place , to build urban centers , but some Dutch told me the arrival of jews from Spain and protestant Flemings boosted Holland as an important urban center . So only Northern Netherlands remained Nordic culturally?

are the central dutch samples from holland or guederland

 

[CrazyDonkey]

Large numbers of French Huguenots settled in Amsterdam and the Dutch Republic.

 

[Northener]

A question I have for Northener is what are Hollanders? I know that when Anglo-Saxon missionaries went to convert Frisians in Utrecht , they partially failed , finally Franks conquered Frisia , it looks like the Franks made Frisia a less swampy place , to build urban centers , but some Dutch told me the arrival of jews from Spain and protestant Flemings boosted Holland as an important urban center . So only Northern Netherlands remained Nordic culturally?

are the central dutch samples from holland or guederland

All barbarians Govan

North (above the Rhine) is indeed especially influenced by the A-S and Nordics as a substrate old Frisii from the (pre) Roman times,
South is below the Rhine/ the Roman limes and had Roman and Celtic influences.
West (Holland) became the most urbanized wit Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague and Utrecht they boomed especially in the Dutch Golden Age in the 17 th century, mixed population from all over the country and indeed from Jews Hugenotes etc.

Gelderland is indeed a kind of Central Zone (but Holland has kind of Central position).

 

[CrazyDonkey]

All barbarians Govan

North (above the Rhine) is indeed especially influenced by the A-S and Nordics as a substrate old Frisii from the (pre) Roman times,
South is below the Rhine/ the Roman limes and had Roman and Celtic influences.
West (Holland) became the most urbanized wit Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague and Utrecht they boomed especially in the Dutch Golden Age in the 17 th century, mixed population from all over the country and indeed from Jews Hugenotes etc.

Gelderland is indeed a kind of Central Zone (but Holland has kind of Central position).

Interestingly, the Huguenots were from southern, not northern, France, so should accordingly be numbered among the "civilized", traceable to the Romans, while their persecutors, the Catholic League, would be the "barbarians", traceable to the Franks.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/proxy...291.jpg&hash=2c77262dca1bf5397a336a77124a0c45

 

[Angela]

^^Depending on the period it covered more of the south than that.

The Albigensian Crusade was also a northern invasion of southern Cathars or Albigensians, although they had existed in other places.

[/IMG]

Historically, northern France was usually much more orthodox and doctrinaire in its religion, I think. In Huguenot times, the "Catholic" League was often led by the Guise family of Lorraine.