"Barbarian" Genetics-Anglo-Saxons, Lombards and Huns

Exactly.....that is the reason why conflict and heresies in the south led to the raise in prominence and importance by the langue d'oil in the north and to the demise of langue d'oc in the south.
 
The Ghibellines, largely of noble Lombard ancestry, protected the Cathar perfecti in northern Italy.
 
CrazyDonkey said:
The Ghibellines, largely of noble Lombard ancestry, protected the Cathar perfecti in northern Italy.
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Yes northern Italy was another big hub for heresy back then. Milan was called by Jacques of Vitry ( a french cardinal) " fovea hereticorum" ( a pit of heretics).
 
etrusco said:
Yes northern Italy was another big hub for heresy back then. Milan was called by Jacques of Vitry ( a french cardinal) " fovea hereticorum" ( a pit of heretics).
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these areas ( north-italy ( genoa, Milan and venice, Ferrara, Bergamo and others )) for centuries where in front of the backward religious ( follow the papacy ) states .......what north italian had then is now closer to the norm for current christian society............even the germans became far more advanced in society once they won the thirty years war and removed the link to the papacy
 
A little less gross generalization and projection of one's biases and agendas, and a lot more reference to sources would be helpful. That way, mistakes of fact don't get made.
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What the city states of Italy became is the result of the struggles of the Guelphs against the Germanic Holy Roman Emperors and their supporters, the Ghibellines. It was they who defended the liberties of the urban communes.

In the interests of full disclosure, one of my family surnames is Ghelfi. :)
 
Sile said:
these areas ( north-italy ( genoa, Milan and venice, Ferrara, Bergamo and others )) for centuries where in front of the backward religious ( follow the papacy ) states .......what north italian had then is now closer to the norm for current christian society............even the germans became far more advanced in society once they won the thirty years war and removed the link to the papacy
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Yes Sile I completely agree on one point: religious idea that were present in the heretics of northern Italy ( italian waldensians, arnaldists, poor lombards) are very close to Hussites and even lutheran ones ( example the sola scriptura, rejection of the real presence of jesus in the eucharistic sacrament, rejection of purgatory, universal priesthood..even a shift toward religious freedom ). That ideas spread also in central and northern europe and influenced a lot the birth of the hussite heresy ( Luther once said: we are all hussites").
I do not agree that catholicism was a backward cultural factor in european history.... the church laid the foundation of european culture in early middle age... was the driving force in the renaissance of the west at the turning of first millennium, in the birth of science and in the promotion of parliament in middle age europe....and the list could go on and on and on and on endlessly

One of the most curious thing is that Lombardy and Veneto ( Paolo Sarpi as an example) which back then were strongly anticlerical are now the stronghold of conservative catholicism in contemporary Italy. Just to be clear I prefer the Lombardy and Veneto of today......
 
Angela said:
A little less gross generalization and projection of one's biases and agendas, and a lot more reference to sources would be helpful. That way, mistakes of fact don't get made.
CVP2HRA.png
[/IMG]

What the city states of Italy became is the result of the struggles of the Guelphs against the Germanic Holy Roman Emperors and their supporters, the Ghibellines. It was they who defended the liberties of the urban communes.

In the interests of full disclosure, one of my family surnames is Ghelfi. :)
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Absolutely right: the pro-church factions were at the forefront of the struggle for civic liberties...
 
etrusco said:
Yes Sile I completely agree on one point: religious idea that were present in the heretics of northern Italy ( italian waldensians, arnaldists, poor lombards) are very close to Hussites and even lutheran ones ( example the sola scriptura, rejection of the real presence of jesus in the eucharistic sacrament, rejection of purgatory, universal priesthood..even a shift toward religious freedom ). That ideas spread also in central and northern europe and influenced a lot the birth of the hussite heresy ( Luther once said: we are all hussites").
I do not agree that catholicism was a backward cultural factor in european history.... the church laid the foundation of european culture in early middle age... was the driving force in the renaissance of the west at the turning of first millennium, in the birth of science and in the promotion of parliament in middle age europe....and the list could go on and on and on and on endlessly

One of the most curious thing is that Lombardy and Veneto ( Paolo Sarpi as an example) which back then were strongly anticlerical are now the stronghold of conservative catholicism in contemporary Italy. Just to be clear I prefer the Lombardy and Veneto of today......
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whats your thoughts on Bruno Giordano
.
Galileo Galilei and similar had freedom to test their sciences in north italy, where in papal states they could not ....this is backward cultural factor
 
"Barbarian" Genetics-Anglo-Saxons, Lombards and Huns

Sile said:
whats your thoughts on Bruno Giordano
.
Galileo Galilei and similar had freedom to test their sciences in north italy, where in papal states they could not ....this is backward cultural factor
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You can also find the opposite, like in the case of Savonarola, hanged and burned in Florence, for being way too anti-secular and not open to new idea and progress.
Both Dominican friars, Giordano Bruno and Savonarola, met a similar fate, even if their Beliefs were the opposite of each other.
The Status Quo went after anybody that challenged Its authority.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girolamo_Savonarola
 
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One of my favorite historical characters from that time was la Gran Contessa, Matilda.

Of course, with the defeat of the Ghibellines (and the burning of the remaining bonhommes), the Guelphs split into two factions, the White and the Black, with the first opposing and the second supporting the Papacy. Dante was a White Guelph. So it really depended on which way the wind was blowing.
 
Sile said:
whats your thoughts on Bruno Giordano
.
Galileo Galilei and similar had freedom to test their sciences in north italy, where in papal states they could not ....this is backward cultural factor
Click to expand...

Even tough I do not agree with his death sentence I do remind you that secularized culture and atheist ones have killed more people in one day that christianity have in two millennia ( see nazis and commies).
Besides modern science is born inside christianity because the creationist mindset of christians made them believe that nature was not a product of irrational forces ( nature in christyanity was desacralized) but a product of an superior rationality that could be interpreted even mathematically because it was created following a rational plan. Hence the process that led in europe to the birth of scientific thinking.

Sile stop reading communist or freemasons newspapers!
 
Gentlemen: back to the genetics of the migration period!
 
Well, both the Ghibelline nobility and Matilda were arguably, by paternal descent, Lombards. Dante's lineage is obscure, dating back to his great grandfather, who was an Italian crusader who was knighted (by Conrad III) and died in the Holy Land. What does the DNA of current Florentines say?
 
^^This is not a thread for commentary about modern Italian genetics. Get back on topic or you're going to get an infraction.

Did you have to ruin the nice vibe and civility? Can't stand taking direction? What's the problem?
 
etrusco said:
Even tough I do not agree with his death sentence I do remind you that secularized culture and atheist ones have killed more people in one day that christianity have in two millennia ( see nazis and commies).
Besides modern science is born inside christianity because the creationist mindset of christians made them believe that nature was not a product of irrational forces ( nature in christyanity was desacralized) but a product of an superior rationality that could be interpreted even mathematically because it was created following a rational plan. Hence the process that led in europe to the birth of scientific thinking.

Sile stop reading communist or freemasons newspapers!
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The last sentence is completely wrong, its an assumption, you do know 80% of assumptions are negative thoughts/directions which does lead to bullying scenarios.
I only follow full genetic equality if if means going against institutions be it religious or not , then I am against them.

As for the other, be one who is religious or not , matters zero for sciences......
 
Sile said:
The last sentence is completely wrong, its an assumption, you do know 80% of assumptions are negative thoughts/directions which does lead to bullying scenarios.
I only follow full genetic equality if if means going against institutions be it religious or not , then I am against them.

As for the other, be one who is religious or not , matters zero for sciences......
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Ok no intention to bully anyone I was just referring to the main source of fake news regarding the relationship between christian faith and culture.
As for the second.... scientific thinking per se is not linked to any religious creed. But the fact that scientific revolution is born inside a christian environment and was improved by scientist that were strong believer ( Galileo, Torricelli, Newton, Alessandro Volta just to name a few) is not a coincidence as I have clearly explained.

Angela is right let's stop here....
 
Apologies, was not my intent. Interest was in the Lombards.
 
Sile said:
these areas ( north-italy ( genoa, Milan and venice, Ferrara, Bergamo and others )) for centuries where in front of the backward religious ( follow the papacy ) states .......what north italian had then is now closer to the norm for current christian society............even the germans became far more advanced in society once they won the thirty years war and removed the link to the papacy
Click to expand...

What? The 30 Years War was massively destructive for all German-speaking areas of Central Europe, and because of the Peace of Westphalia, which finally established some principle of religious tolerance between states and their official faiths, in fact a lot of German kingdoms kept their links to the papacy. By the way, even now, much of Germany, including some of its wealthiest regions, are mostly Catholic, and in the 19th century Catholics ("papists") were some 40% of the population, a plurality, with obviously a vast majority of them concentrated in some regions.

I never heard that Germany became significantly more advanced and prosperous after the 30 Years War. In fact, not only did 1/3 of the population die, I even read that some regions of Germany only achieved the same level of economic activity 200 years later in the 19th century. Germany was impoverished in comparison to other European nations until well into the 18th century.
 
Sile said:
whats your thoughts on Bruno Giordano
.
Galileo Galilei and similar had freedom to test their sciences in north italy, where in papal states they could not ....this is backward cultural factor
Click to expand...

By now (21st century), everybody should've already given up on the idea of using Bruno Giordano as an example of anti-scientific persecution by the Church (Galileo okay, that's a real example). Giordano was put on the stake and burned because of his deeply (in some cases, especially to a modern secular mind, disturbingly) mysticistic and unorthodox religious views, not because of the science he did or the scientific ideas he had. Much of what he said in terms of science was also supported by other people who didn't get into trouble with the Church, including thinkers of the religious orders. I know, the new Cosmos series tried to make a sort of "fairytale for secular atheists" using his life story, but that was more like a scientificist parable than a real narrative of history as it happened.
 
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