Were most men killed off 7000 years ago?

All the archeological remains, ancient literature and genetic data, suggest to an IE invasion from the Caspian steppes. The use of horses and metals is contributed to ancient IE people of 4000bce. They subjugated the Neolithic farmers. The IE elite warriors didn't killed them all , but they just enslaved most of them. The bronze age economy was called or centered in the so called "palace economy". The IE warrior caste stayed in the big palace , whilst the other populace was contributing for wealth of these IE warriors. Mycenaeans , Minoans , Hittites, Egyptians , all of them had a 'palace based economy' from where the bloodthirsty Agamemnon ruled his domain.

What are you talking about? The Minoans and Egyptians had nothing to do with IE.

Also, what "palace" economy was there in Britain or Western Europe or Central or Northern Europe.

The palace economy was a Mediterranean phenomenon.
 
Indigenous peoples of the Americas (No Horses):

“ ... Prior to the introduction of European horses and guns, Plains warfare took two forms. When equally matched forces confronted each other, warriors sheltered behind large shields, firing arrows; individual warriors came out from behind these lines to dance and taunt their opponents. This mode of combat was largely for show and casualties were light. However, sometimes, large war parties surprised and utterly destroyed small camps or hamlets. ... “

not native americans but that description reminded me of this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BzqwOBneC4
 
Well, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink...

The Indo-Europeans didn't subjugate the Egyptians!

One of the first+largest chariot battles took place between Indo-Europeans[Hittites[Nesi speaking] and Egyptians; at the battle of Kadesh[The Battle of Kadesh or Battle of Qadesh took place between the forces of the New Kingdom of Egypt under Ramesses II and the Hittite Empire under Muwatalli II at the city of Kadesh on the Orontes River, just upstream of Lake Homs near the modern Lebanon–Syria border.[10]
The battle is generally dated to 1274 BCE in the Egyptian chronology]. It ended in a stand off/stalemate-peace treaty[declaring both Hittite and Egyptian as "Great Kings". King Tut's chariot is on display as an example of a typical Egyptian swift battle chariot[side point Proto-Afro-Asiatic>Egyptian have no wagon burials>and thus no word for wheel-unlike Maykop+Maykop Steppe/Sintashta wagon/chariot burial sites near present day Georgia-Yamnaya/Sintashta regions]. Genetic ancestral results for King Tut's paternal line have never formally been released[thus we do not know his place of origin]; even though the results of his tested remains have been known since 2011 and blood type known/tested in 1969.


Wine was being made in places like Sicily BEFORE the arrival of the Indo-Europeans or the bell beakers.

Georgian wine[Maykop region+ Hajji Firuz is also quite old]] is still older,pottery+wine residue. European grape pips are derived from Georgia/unless you can prove otherwise. Hittite word for wine is similar to Armenian and Kartvelian word for wine.
 
selection must be in play in Iceland
if it were just drift, why don't modern Scandinavians and Irish show a similar drift?
you could say the drift is caused by the bottleneck of the small founder population,
but that is not correct, the paper shows that the drift continued gradually, and not all at once, during the initial population of Iceland
the climate and the environment in Iceland is not the same as in their Scandinavian homeland
today, with modern comfort and abundant food and medical care, every one can survive any where on this planet
but 1000 years ago, things were different
many children would die and not reach the age to procreate
climate and environment is the reason Iceland still doesn't host a large population today

maybe because drift is dependant on population size. if you have 3 flowers and 1 of them is white the rest is red it is way more probable that the white trait dies out in the population than if you have 300 flowers where 100 are white. however i don't know how many people actually lived on iceland from the beginning and how much migration they had afterwards.
though its still possible that selection had an effect too.
 
One of the first+largest chariot battles took place between Indo-Europeans[Hittites[Nesi speaking] and Egyptians; at the battle of Kadesh[The Battle of Kadesh or Battle of Qadesh took place between the forces of the New Kingdom of Egypt under Ramesses II and the Hittite Empire under Muwatalli II at the city of Kadesh on the Orontes River, just upstream of Lake Homs near the modern Lebanon–Syria border.[10]
The battle is generally dated to 1274 BCE in the Egyptian chronology]. It ended in a stand off/stalemate-peace treaty[declaring both Hittite and Egyptian as "Great Kings". King Tut's chariot is on display as an example of a typical Egyptian swift battle chariot[side point Proto-Afro-Asiatic>Egyptian have no wagon burials>and thus no word for wheel-unlike Maykop+Maykop Steppe/Sintashta wagon/chariot burial sites near present day Georgia-Yamnaya/Sintashta regions]. Genetic ancestral results for King Tut's paternal line have never formally been released[thus we do not know his place of origin]; even though the results of his tested remains have been known since 2011 and blood type known/tested in 1969.




Georgian wine[Maykop region+ Hajji Firuz is also quite old]] is still older,pottery+wine residue. European grape pips are derived from Georgia/unless you can prove otherwise. Hittite word for wine is similar to Armenian and Kartvelian word for wine.

Yes, indeed, the steppe peoples, who had to be taught agriculture, and who could barely grow anything except in a few river valleys, grew grapes and made wine.:useless:
 
Georgian wine[Maykop region+ Hajji Firuz is also quite old]] is still older,pottery+wine residue. European grape pips are derived from Georgia/unless you can prove otherwise. Hittite word for wine is similar to Armenian and Kartvelian word for wine.

Wine was in other areas and being produced locally in those areas, way before Indo-Europeans arrived. Thus it is not possible that it was used as a tool of subjugation to a population that was already producing it.
 
Yes, indeed, the steppe peoples, who had to be taught agriculture, and who could barely grow anything except in a few river valleys, grew grapes and made wine.:useless:

Angela has your car ever had a flat tire? Would you know how to change it[structural point to lift your car with jack and correct torque and bolt sequence to not warp your rotors]? You adapt to your situation the best you can.
Likewise Steppe/Yamnaya peoples adapted to the environment,they did not "need" to learn agriculture, they did not know[what crops grew best in unknown climate soil conditions] what to encounter in the tens of thousands of square kilometers on the Steppe. They did not need to learn/invent to make wagons and or wheels out of structural suitable wood like jenga blocks, so they could assemble and disassemble between Caucasus mountains and Steppe, however they did and used them, not to collect farm crops, but to explore. They adapted and were creative to their environment/climate, and worked with what nature provided them. The other day a soccer match was held in Samarra Russia- it was very hot and humid- the same climate in winter is bitter cold,not the best for agriculture .I suspect they used wine to numb pain for the injuries they might have; like bone fractures taming oxen/wagon or horses on the Steppe.
 
Angela has your car ever had a flat tire? Would you know how to change it[structural point to lift your car with jack and correct torque and bolt sequence to not warp your rotors]? You adapt to your situation the best you can.
Likewise Steppe/Yamnaya peoples adapted to the environment,they did not "need" to learn agriculture, they did not know[what crops grew best in unknown climate soil conditions] what to encounter in the tens of thousands of square kilometers on the Steppe. They did not need to learn/invent to make wagons and or wheels out of structural suitable wood like jenga blocks, so they could assemble and disassemble between Caucasus mountains and Steppe, however they did and used them, not to collect farm crops, but to explore. They adapted and were creative to their environment/climate, and worked with what nature provided them. The other day a soccer match was held in Samarra Russia- it was very hot and humid- the same climate in winter is bitter cold,not the best for agriculture .I suspect they used wine to numb pain for the injuries they might have; like bone fractures taming oxen/wagon or horses on the Steppe.

I don't understand why you think they're exempt from the prerequisite knowledge of doing things. Are you suggesting they're somehow innately capable of doing these things? No one in academia suggests that the indo-europeans used wine to subjugate anyone. Egyptians were not formed by an Indo-European invasion. These things that you are inferring are not supporting those claims.
 
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I don't understand why they're exempt from the prerequisite knowledge of doing things. Are you suggesting they're somehow innately capable of doing these things? No one in academia suggests that the indo-europeans used wine to subjugate anyone. Egyptians were not created by indo-europeans. These things that you are inferring are not supporting those claims.

Who else made wheels, had early pottery[Repin] and traveled using wagons and drank wine, and smoked weed? How do you know when encountering new natives the Steppe/Yamnaya did not offer free homemade Steppe fire water[aka-wine] before negotiating taking advantage--land treaty? We don't. However they had access to these resources.
 
Who else made wheels, had early pottery[Repin] and traveled using wagons and drank wine, and smoked weed? How do you know when encountering new natives the Steppe/Yamnaya did not offer free homemade Steppe fire water[aka-wine] before negotiating taking advantage--land treaty? We don't. However they had access to these resources.
Exactly: we have no clue at all if they did or did not, no evidence pointing in that direction at all. So it can be wisely put aside for now. This hypothesis is not just weakly substantiated and a bit too facile, but also runs counter innumerable other evidences (wheels, wine, even pottery - pottery! - being a specifically "Indo-European thing"? As late as in the Bronze Age, when Indo-Europeans started to even matter? Really?! And Near Easterners who had been brewing beer and making wine for milennia, and often even paid workers in beer - as did the Egyptians -, falling as easy preys to Indo-European sellers of alcoholic beverages? I mean, seriously?!).

Such a mental exercise is very creative and would even make for a very nice history-based fiction story, but it's still totally speculative if the best defence of it is basically "how do you if this and that could not have happened? What if this and that happened?". Being hypothetically possible is not enough. In this case, this hypothesis is not even very plausible, let alone probable according to the evidences we have until now.
 
Who else made wheels, had early pottery[Repin] and traveled using wagons and drank wine, and smoked weed? How do you know when encountering new natives the Steppe/Yamnaya did not offer free homemade Steppe fire water[aka-wine] before negotiating taking advantage--land treaty? We don't. However they had access to these resources.
Who else? The Chinese
 
What are you talking about? The Minoans and Egyptians had nothing to do with IE.

Also, what "palace" economy was there in Britain or Western Europe or Central or Northern Europe.

The palace economy was a Mediterranean phenomenon.

Minoans and Egyptians were not IE, their ruling class were indeed. The same as ancient Serbians and Bulgars weren't Slavic. Serbians and Bulgars were tribes of Sarmatian and Turkic stock. They were nomadic tribes whom became assimilated by the agricultural Slavs.
I support the theory that all the bronze age polities were IE offsprings. Even the Etruscan language show a strong IE influence. Furthermore, we know that Neolithic farmers never set foot in Sardinia. How it came that they settled in Crete!! The Minoan civilization is founded by IE people. Probably the E1b1 and J2a lineages were just slaves, whom were enslaved by the R1b ruling class.
 
^^That is complete nonsense.

I would just ignore these ravings, people.
 
Exactly: we have no clue at all if they did or did not, no evidence pointing in that direction at all. So it can be wisely put aside for now. This hypothesis is not just weakly substantiated and a bit too facile, but also runs counter innumerable other evidences (wheels, wine, even pottery - pottery! - being a specifically "Indo-European thing"? As late as in the Bronze Age, when Indo-Europeans started to even matter? Really?! And Near Easterners who had been brewing beer and making wine for milennia, and often even paid workers in beer - as did the Egyptians -, falling as easy preys to Indo-European sellers of alcoholic beverages? I mean, seriously?!).

Such a mental exercise is very creative and would even make for a very nice history-based fiction story, but it's still totally speculative if the best defence of it is basically "how do you if this and that could not have happened? What if this and that happened?". Being hypothetically possible is not enough. In this case, this hypothesis is not even very plausible, let alone probable according to the evidences we have until now.
Prove me wrong-
Yamnaya pottery is stratified above Repin, and their kurgans are in the same region.Hajji Firuz pottery is a completely different style-another early center of wine production, not found at Repin sites. Grapes need a certain environment to grow, deserts are not known for growing grapes.
Alcohol consumption went up in the Americas speaking Indigenous people[including Eskimoo]; after the arrival of European peoples.
Some groups/tribes who have come in contact with Indo-European speaking people adopted their use/language of the wheel. For example can you give the name of wheel in the following Afar, Amhara, Anlo-Ewe, Ashanti, Bakongo, Bambara, Bemba ?
Or can you show an example [archeological predating Maykop/Maykop Steppe] ancient wheel artifact from the Proto-Canaanites-Proto Siniatic script/Phonecians, who styled the earliest known alphabet symbol "Teth" to mean/designate a wheel.
 
Prove me wrong-
Yamnaya pottery is stratified above Repin, and their kurgans are in the same region.Hajji Firuz pottery is a completely different style-another early center of wine production, not found at Repin sites. Grapes need a certain environment to grow, deserts are not known for growing grapes.
Alcohol consumption went up in the Americas speaking Indigenous people[including Eskimoo]; after the arrival of European peoples.
Some groups/tribes who have come in contact with Indo-European speaking people adopted their use/language of the wheel. For example can you give the name of wheel in the following Afar, Amhara, Anlo-Ewe, Ashanti, Bakongo, Bambara, Bemba ?
Or can you show an example [archeological predating Maykop/Maykop Steppe] ancient wheel artifact from the Proto-Canaanites-Proto Siniatic script/Phonecians, who styled the earliest known alphabet symbol "Teth" to mean/designate a wheel.

You're the ones asserting this ridiculous "hypothesis". When you do so it's incumbent on you to provide the proof, to wit, where is the proof that the steppe peoples grew grapes/wine or made beer before it was already being consumed in the Near East and in other farmer areas? If you don't have any such proof then it's a non starter.

I also have no idea what you're talking about with regard to "DESERTS". You still don't know that farming began in the FERTILE CRESCENT of the Near East? There are deserts in parts of it, but parts of it were very fertile indeed once upon a time. The Levant, home of the Natufians and the place where wheat grains were first collected on a mass scale for use as food was, according to Hawks, a paradise of plants and animals. We know grapes were grown in Georgia. You think either of those places were deserts? Do you really need to have all the papers posted again that show how early wheat was domesticated and turned into beer? Ygorcs has already alluded to it.

p20019ad4g94001.jpg


60c66e8eb5931ed2347b294dbdb4bb57--sumerian-fascinating-facts.jpg




It was the steppe where you can find evidence of farming only in a few river valleys. It was the steppe which came to farming LATE. How could they make alcohol if they didn't farm? That's why the steppe came to settled life and metallurgy so late as well. Why on earth do you think they were first fisher-hunter-gatherers living in yurts, and then, only after contact with the farming communities in the Balkans and the Caucasus learned to farm a little, but mainly became pastoralists? That's why the farming vocabulary even in the Indo-European languages is a substrate from farming languages.

The steppe peoples didn't take everything from the advanced societies of the lands to their south. They also borrowed heavily from the communities of "Old Europe" to their west. The first grains seem to be from there, also the first copper, both in the form of imported copper goods and later the raw copper from which they produced crude artifacts by copying Balkan styles. Cattle seem to have been imported from the Balkans, but sheep and goats may have come not only from there but also from the Caucasus. Bronze making seems to have been learned from Maykop. The Corded Ware people barely had copper. Bronze appeared much later in Europe. IF the Hittites were the first to produce iron it's only because they absorbed the skilled metallurgists who had been experimenting with metals for millennia in the region before the Hittites appeared to history.

Kurgans are on both sides of the Caucasus from very early periods. We may never know where the absolutely first one was built, but it was a common burial form across that region. I also fail to see that it's such a big deal. What benefit is there to a kurgan versus any other form of burial? The only reason it's important is to corroborate gene flow, which is the most important thing. The wheel is indeed a big deal, but it can be found in Old Europe and the Near East before it is found on the steppe, at least from the latest dating. It was smart to adapt it and the carts it pulled for the most efficient use of their environment.

The domestication of the horse seems to be the only sure "original" contribution to the IE package by the steppe peoples.

I don't know why this is such a tragedy. The Japanese are very good at absorbing, adapting, and benefiting from the technology of others too. No one holds it against them. There's something to be said for adaptability.

We're all tired of pointing out the same things over and over again and posting links to papers which you apparently don't read. Use the darn search engine and they'll turn up again and again and read them, or use google.

There is a whole body of literature about tolerance for alcohol. Those peoples who have practiced agriculture the longest and therefore were exposed to alcohol the longest are the best at dealing with it, i.e. they aren't as likely to become alcoholics. It's selection at work. If anyone thinks that men who are falling down, rolling around the floor drunk half the time, and puking their guts up the other half of the time make good warriors, he needs his head examined. That was one of the things that destroyed the North American Indians, because they rapidly became addicted to it, losing in battles and losing their pride and dignity at the same time. Since the steppe people weren't farmers and thus wouldn't have been making alcohol, it's probable they also had no tolerance for alcohol. So, it was probably a detriment to them as well, but they had climate change, population crashes, and the plague to help them. Plus, as luck would have it for them, a pastoral economy, even if it was learned from people west of them, as there is some indication is the case, was a better option for survival in the changed conditions in Central Europe.
 
You're the ones asserting this ridiculous "hypothesis". ...............
Thank-you for your view on these subjects.
 
Thank-you for your view on these subjects.

Not my view,Silesian, but the view of archaeologists, as you'd know if you took my advice and used our search engine and google scholar.

Find me proof of the growing of wheat and grapes and the making of alcohol on the steppes before the Near East and the Balkans or other areas in Europe proper and I'll be happy to amend my view. Indeed, find proof that what I wrote is disproved by the scientific consensus on the other subjects and I'll amend my views on those as well.

All I do is follow the evidence.
 
Prove me wrong-
Yamnaya pottery is stratified above Repin, and their kurgans are in the same region.Hajji Firuz pottery is a completely different style-another early center of wine production, not found at Repin sites. Grapes need a certain environment to grow, deserts are not known for growing grapes.
Alcohol consumption went up in the Americas speaking Indigenous people[including Eskimoo]; after the arrival of European peoples.
Some groups/tribes who have come in contact with Indo-European speaking people adopted their use/language of the wheel. For example can you give the name of wheel in the following Afar, Amhara, Anlo-Ewe, Ashanti, Bakongo, Bambara, Bemba ?
Or can you show an example [archeological predating Maykop/Maykop Steppe] ancient wheel artifact from the Proto-Canaanites-Proto Siniatic script/Phonecians, who styled the earliest known alphabet symbol "Teth" to mean/designate a wheel.

Lots of unrelated facts in your post (so what if alcohol consumption went up in the Americas? Is your hypothesis for that Copper Age/Bronze Age transformation based on a big "what if?" using as a basis a sequence of events of the Modern Era more than 4000 years later? Really?). Pottery had existed for thousands of years when the Indo-Europeans even started to be noticed. Ditto for wine, beer (especially), other alcohol beverages, weed, and so on. Wheels were already found (no speculation, archaeological findings) in non-IE societies of the Fertile Crescent (Sumeria) and EEF Eastern Europe (Cucuteni-Tripolye, Funnelbeaker) as early as 3500-3200 BCE, when Indo-Europeans were still at the very beginning of their Eurasian expansion and still concentrated in and around the Pontic-Caspian steppe (not even CWC existed then).

You can't possibly expect us to just "fantasize" that Indo-Europeans somewhere in a remote steppe were somehow the only people that had ever made good use of those things invented far from their homeland, by other peoples milennia before. Okay, we understand, you've found "your" hypothesis. But it's still you who have to prove that things happened that way, not us the ones who need to prove that things could not have happened that way. This is not how science works. You must prove you're right first - and present strong evidences not only about the Indo-Europeans, but even more importantly about the non-Indo-Europeans, because your hypothesis depends on their not being prepared to deal with those supposedly "Indo-European innovations" (the whole comparison with Native Americans etc.).

As for wine production, Angela already said most of what I wanted to say. I'll just wait for your proofs that grapes grow should much more easily, productive and tasty, in the environment near Samara or maybe a bit to its south around Volgograd, than in the Mediterranean coast or in the hills and valleys south of the Caucasus. ;)
 
Well, I guess he doesn't go for the reproductive advantage of elites over centuries, or never inhabited areas, population crashes, plague, etc. occurring prior to or at the same time as migrations to explain the bottleneck in y lineages, and hearkens back to the old, they just exterminated each other, even within "ethnic" groups, until only a few lines were left.
A Romanian joke. "Men are stupid! For a hole they take a sieve, and women for a sausage take a whole pig."
 

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