BREAKING! Either 1400+ year old Albanian community in France, or Illyrians confirmed

Johane Derite

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In the middle of Savoie, in the Auvergne-Rhone Alps region of France, there is a valley called the Arvan Valley (Vallee des Arves) surrounded by many more Alb/Arb/ARv toponyms. These toponyms are off course named after the Arverni tribe, a large ancient celtic tribe from which the Auvergne region derives its name.

What is shocking though is that these people in this region have an extremely similar folk dress to Albanian highlanders!

This has so many ramifications guys! It changes European historiography, linguistics, archeology. Eureka!

Any Arverni french on Eupedia here?

Text:

In Fig. A1 - Fig. A7 we see the folkloric costumes worn by women from villages in the “Arvan Valley” (Vallée de l'Arve) of the Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes region of Savoie, France. The Auvergne name is derived from an ancient celtic tribe called the “Arverni.” This folkloric costume is famed for being distinct and unlike the other folkloric costumes from the region and other French folk costumes in general. This discontinuity with other French folk costumes suggests an external or different influence on the material culture.

In Fig. B1 - Fig. B7 we see the “Xhubleta,” the undulating, bell shaped dress worn by Albanian women. This is a distinctively Albanian dress and nothing approaching it in likeness or construction is worn by any other ethnic group in the Balkans, Europe, or its neighbouring continents. It is mostly worn in the Malesia e Madhe region of Albanian territories. The Xhubleta is constructed in a very specific way with archaic techniques and materials that have been used since ancient times. In youth, the Xhubleta is striped white and black, and becomes black in its entirety only once a woman marries. In some regions it is said that a red Xhubleta was worn on the wedding day. The Xhubleta is very heavy due to its thick woolen and felt construction and reaches up to 15-20kgs with all it’s ornamentation and component parts worn together. Other distinct features of the Xhubleta are the symbols that are woven into its striping, its apron, the shoulder pads/cinctures, the shoulder straps that carry it, the broad “hook” belt/panel that is worn over it, the cloth worn over the shoulders with hanging cinctures, “stockings” and symbols that code for social information about status, clan, village, etc.

If we compare the costumes and component parts that we see in Figures. A1 - A7 with those in Figrures. B1 - B7, we see that almost all of the Xhubleta’s distinct features have been retained in the costumes of the Arvan Valley, while replacing some archaic features and materials, adding pleats and losing the black and white version worn in youth (although the Arvan Valley dress also is different colored in youth). The bell shape of the dress is made by sewing strips on one after the other, each of which longer than the one before, make the garment wider and wider towards the bottom. In the Arvan Valley the strips have become finer while the Xhubleta has retained the more archaic form, with broad strips. Folkloric costume researcher Roman K. when analyzing the method of production of the Arvan Valley dress in his own words says:

“The only other example of this kind of skirt construction which I know of is the Xhubleta of Albania . . . Why these two unrelated, widely separated regions uniquely use this method of construction, I have no idea. ”

The distinct belt and style of apron has also been retained, while taking on more French characteristics with respect to ornamentation. The cloth with cinctures that is worn over the shoulders is likewise retained with only ornamental differences. The materials of the Xhubleta have been made lighter, although the Arvan Valley dress is still heavy, reaching up to 7kgs. Likewise aesthetic and stylistic features have been retained like the single coloured horizontal band in the adult dress. The process of making a Xhubleta is very difficult and meticulous, and takes more than 6 months to complete one dress, this seems to be the case with the Arvan Valley dress also.

The more archaic nature of the materials and construction in the Xhubleta compared to the Arvan Valley costumes also suggest that it is basal and originary, as does the higher diversity of the costumes which differ with age and tribe/location in Albanian women. The cultural transmission of this dress and its production is therefore more likely to be in the direction of Albania to France rather than the other way around. Were it that the dresses of the Arvan Valley had only the bell shape element, we could speculate that it is just a coincidence, but in conjunction with all the other ensemblic parts such as the panel belt, the cloth, etc, it cannot be put down to just coincidence.

This is corroborated and compounded upon by the male costumes we see in Fig. C1 - C2 and Fig. D1 - D2 which have retained the white woolen aspects of the male costume which were organically connected to the Albanian mode of life in the highlands and immediately accessible materials like wool, as well as the red sash (called the brez in Albanian) that in Albanian folkloric costumes was used to hold everyday items as well as daggers, revolvers and such. In Fig. D3 we see clearly how the male costume is part of a complementary pair with the Xhubleta. No other male costume past the Arvan Valley has these elements in precisely this conjunction.

Further corroborating this transmission from Albania to France are the toponyms of villages and sites in the Arvan Valley (Fig. E1). There are at least 11 toponyms visible on Google Earth that are a variation of “Arvan/Alban” (both ethnonyms for Albanians). These toponyms end outside of this small ~10km x ~18km region although it's possible that there may be more inside of and in the near vicinity that are missed by Google Earth.

It is incontestable that this material culture which is similar to that of the Albanians is inextricably coupled with the toponyms.

Where these toponyms terminate outside of the Arvan Valley, so too do the shared features in the folkloric costumes, demonstrating that the Arvan Valley is the locus of this material culture in the region and also making it clear that cultural contact and transmission must have occurred sometime, somewhere, between the Albanians and the Arvan Valley folk.

The Arvan Valley borders with the Piedmont region of Italy, which has the highest presence of the Y-DNA haplogroup J2B2-L283 for all of Italy. (See Fig. E1) J2B2-L283 is more densely concentrated in Albanians than any other ethnicity in the world, this points to the conclusion that the likely cultural transmission from Albanians to the Arvan Valley of Savoie that is suggested in the folkloric costumes seems to have also been connected with some migratory event or contact between the peoples that also entailed genetic transmission or settlements.

The timeframe for when this event is most likely to have happened is the most unexpected considering how similar the folkloric elements are. These toponyms relating to the ethnonym of the Albanians (Alban, Arban, Arvan, Arber, Arben, etc) are attested to in the Arvan Valley since at least 739 AD (see Fi.g E2). Albiez de Jeune is referred to as “Colonica in Albiadis” in the Cartulaire de Grenoble by Saint Hugues (Fig. E2). The Albiez is mentioned in the Testament of Abbon as being among the parishes given to the Novalesa Abbey (in Piedmont) by Charlemagne.

Considering this minimum of ~1380 years for this cultural transmission event, it is remarkable to see just how much the material culture has been preserved. Especially when taking into consideration more recent Albanian diaspora communities like the Arbereshe of Italy, who have evolved different costumes at a much faster rate.

There are only two feasible explanations for both “Alb” toponyms/ethnonyms and Albanian like material culture appearing in the Arvan Valley, Savoie, France.

Either:

1. A migratory event of Albanians to Savoie happened at least ~1380 years ago (since by 739 AD we already have confirmed “Alb” toponyms). If this is the correct explanation then this means the Xhubleta has a confirmed existence of at least 1300+ years and that the historiography of Albanians in Europe can be pushed back 300 years earlier than the oldest document we currently have that mentions them (Bulgarian text that mentions “Arbanasi” once, 1000-1018).

Or:

2. The Arvan Valley and its material culture come from very ancient cultural substrate that was shared by both Illyrians and Celts who also used the “Alb” ethnonym i.e. as in the Arverni celts of France, Scotland’s “Alba” or the Illyrian “Albanopolis.” In ancient mythology Illyrius [father of Illyrians] is brothers with Celtus [father of Celts] and Galas [father of Gauls]). The famous celtic tribe of Arverni were one of the most powerful in ancient Gaul, and the Auvergne region derives their name from them. If this is the case, then the Xhubleta is a 2000+ year old Illyrian artefact that has survived in its most archaic and original form in the highlands of Albania and solidifies very strongly the argument for Illyrian-Albanian continuity while also having many other ramifications for Albanian, Celtic, Gaulish, Illyrian and European historiography, archeology, linguistic studies, etc. This also means that the Albanians and the Arverni of France have had shared ancient history and many unforeseeble ramifications and speculations follow. For example, did the English St. Alban’s mother wear a Xhubleta?

In reading French historiographies on the Arvan Valley and the “Alb” related toponyms, the etymologies that are proposed focus only around possible celtic names related to the Arverni tribe and relations to the colour white in the nearby environs. Which is one factor making scenario 1 less likely to be the correct one.

Of high relevance to consideration is the spike in J2b2-L283 in the Piedmont region. The oldest J2b2-L283 that has been found in Europe is in a skeleton that was found in Veliki Vanik, Croatia and dated 1600-1500 BC. This is the time and place that would have belonged to the proto-Illyrian culture as they were undergoing their ethnogenesis. The spike in Piedmont is as of yet unexplained, yet it borders with the Arvan Valley and the Novalesa Abbey (in Turin, Piedmont) that Charlemagne granted parishes from Albiez (in the Arvan Valley) to. It is also the site of the ancient town of Alba Pompeia which suggests a possible deeper connection meriting further investigation.

In a study of Italian Y-dna lineages from late 2017, the authors of the paper suggest this explanation for the highest J2b2-L283 results in Piedmont (Tortona was the area tested from Piedmont in this study):

Paraphrasing:

“J2b-M241(J2b2-L283’s parent clade) marks a seaborne route whose contribution is still detectable along the Adriatic coast as well as in populations along the Po Valley, Italy.

E1b-V13(also a haplogroup whose highest concentration is in Albanians) is also observed in Volterra and the Northern Italian groups, mainly in the most accessible areas. This observation supports a Balkan influence in Northern Italian populations as well, most likely through an Adriatic route and along the Po Valley and, to a lesser extent in lateral, more isolated, mountainous valleys. ”

There are scholars like Julius Pokorny, a linguist specialized in Celtic languages, who connect the Celto-Ligurian theory to the Illyrians, and thus possibly corroborating this suggested Adriatic -> Po Valley route.

Taking into account these two scenarios as possible explanations for the shared material culture and toponyms and weighing the evidence as it presents itself at this moment, the data points to scenario 2 being more likely, namely, that the Arverni and the Illyrians had a shared cultural substrate up to a point and retained similar material culture in their folklore. This would make the Xhubleta an artefact of immense interest for many intersecting fields.

There are arguments prior to the Arvan Valley discovery that the Xhubleta represents Illyrian - Albanian cultural continuity. In Fig. F1 - Fig. F6 we see examples of similarity between Illyrian artefacts and elements of the Xhubleta ensemble as well as existing evidence of sharing a Southern European cultural and genetic substrate which increases likelihood of Illyrian - Albanian continuity.

In Fig. G1 - Fig. G10 we see etymological, archaeological, and cultural speculation about the possible connections the Xhubleta may have to documented “bell shaped” dresses in the regions in which cultural transmission did happen for sure (as shown before in Fig. F5 and Fig. F6).

Z2H3S4g.jpg

n7fb7bs.jpg
 
Greetings from Auvergne, Johane.

A few facts: The Auvergne - Rhone Alpes Region emerged two years ago from the arbitrary merger (decided in Paris) of two very distinct "historic" regions. Prior to that, for centuries, those two regions, separated by a long mountain range of some geographic significance, went their own ways without much contact. The Auvergne, to the west of the Rhone valley, and separated from it by the Forez moutains, owes its name to the Gaulish Arverni.

The river Arve, as pointed out in the article above, has its source at the foot of Mont Blanc, i.e close to the Swiss and Italian borders. In other words, it is as far removed from Auvergne as French geography can have it. There just can't possibly be any connection whatsoever between the name of the Arverni and the name of river Arve, which lies in (almost beyond) the territory of the ancient Allobroges - powerful rivals of the Arverni.

The name of river Arve is derived from Aturawa, atur+awa. Atur is a (Celtic?) word, perhaps akin to Breton "dour" (water), meaning "source" or "river". It survives in the names of other French rivers: Adour, Eure (Atura), Aar (Arura), Arroux (Aturauos), Orne (Otorna), Ourcq (Aturicos). Awa is a suffix of uncertain origin, found in many hydronyms, and referring to fast-flowing torrents.

The name of the Arverni is most probably derived from are-wern-i <(p)are-wern-i, namely "those who live in the vicinity of alder trees" (along river banks). With regular loss of initial p in Celtic.

The resemblance between the Albanian and Arve Valley costumes is indeed striking. And a group a Albanians might have found a haven in a yet-uninhabited Alpine valley in the early Middle Ages, who knows? But personally, I wouldn't go beyond that. And, of course, this doesn't discount a possible connection (of which I know next to nothing) between the Illyrians and the Celto-Ligurians.

But all things considered, my impression, sorry to say, is that the article you quote upthread looks pretty much like a hoax. No offense meant.
 
No offense taken. I'm just about to sleep so I will reply more in depth in the morning.

The focus should not have been the Auvergne region. The key should be that the Arvan Valley had "Alb/Arv/Arb" toponyms since 739 AD confirmed. For me it was occams razor to associate with Arverni, rather than some mysterious Albanian
community having dealings with Charlemagne and not being mentioned in European historiography. The first mention we currently have of Albanians is the year 1018 in a bulgarian document (only once as "Arbanasi").

If the Arvan valley is not related to Arverni, and Albanians were in france since then,
then it suggests some strange conspiracy to erase us out of the historical record, which is less likely then it simply being related to Arverni people. Thats the crux of that point.

739 AD, Testament of Abbon. If they were Albanians, then thats very weird.

 
I'd hate to keep you awake late into the night, but have you considered the possibility that those toponyms could simply be due to the proximity of the river Arve flowing nearby?
 
Sure, but its the entanglement of thr toponyms with the albanian like folkloric costumes in both the female and male variant that complicates that expla ation and makes it bit too coincidental. Outside of the arvan valley the shared features terminate and it doesnt resemble albanian costumes. So the river arve would have to have some albo connection
 
Archeology have shown tribes from Moselle moved to Garonne river by the iron age.
Tribes crossed the Rhine and conquered brutally northernmost France, we know they were called Belgae and shall remained there by the time of the Romans.
So Arvern havin moved out of Switzerland borders sounds reasonable.
 
I don't think a recent (after the Early Middle Ages) connection to Albania is plausible given these scant evidences based on some (among many other features of ethnic tradition) cultural similarities. The second alternative, given in the text you quoted and considered more likely than the other (a medieval Albanian community in France), looks really much more promising and intriguing in my opinion and should cause further investigations, especially given that it would corroborate some other hypothesis about the ancient connections and splits of IE languages and cultures in (central) Europe. That said, I'm not sure I trust some of the details presumed in the article (like the Celto-Ligurian-Illyrian commonalities necessarily reflecting one immediate common proto-language, instead of a long period of cultural proximity and interaction between two similar languages; and their route being from the Adriatic via the Po Valley, for I think a more Central European route upwards and westwards from the Balkans is even more plausible). That is:

"2. The Arvan Valley and its material culture come from very ancient cultural substrate that was shared by both Illyrians and Celts who also used the “Alb” ethnonym i.e. as in the Arverni celts of France, Scotland’s “Alba” or the Illyrian “Albanopolis.” In ancient mythology Illyrius [father of Illyrians] is brothers with Celtus [father of Celts] and Galas [father of Gauls]). The famous celtic tribe of Arverni were one of the most powerful in ancient Gaul, and the Auvergne region derives their name from them. If this is the case, then the Xhubleta is a 2000+ year old Illyrian artefact that has survived in its most archaic and original form in the highlands of Albania and solidifies very strongly the argument for Illyrian-Albanian continuity while also having many other ramifications for Albanian, Celtic, Gaulish, Illyrian and European historiography, archeology, linguistic studies, etc. This also means that the Albanians and the Arverni of France have had shared ancient history and many unforeseeble ramifications and speculations follow. For example, did the English St. Alban’s mother wear a Xhubleta?"

There are scholars like Julius Pokorny, a linguist specialized in Celtic languages, who connect the Celto-Ligurian theory to the Illyrians, and thus possibly corroborating this suggested Adriatic -> Po Valley route.

Taking into account these two scenarios as possible explanations for the shared material culture and toponyms and weighing the evidence as it presents itself at this moment, the data points to scenario 2 being more likely, namely, that the Arverni and the Illyrians had a shared cultural substrate up to a point and retained similar material culture in their folklore. This would make the Xhubleta an artefact of immense interest for many intersecting fields.
 


There are scholars like Julius Pokorny, a linguist specialized in Celtic languages, who connect the Celto-Ligurian theory to the Illyrians, and thus possibly corroborating this suggested Adriatic -> Po Valley route.

"Possibly was my key phrase here.


I based this on the 2017 paper:



"Reconstructing the genetic history of Italians: new insights from a male (Y-chromosome) perspective - Viola Grugni"

LINK: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/03014460.2017.1409801


The authors of the paper suggest this explanation for the highest J2b2-L283 results in Piedmont:




Some relevant quotes from the paper:


"J2b is most frequent in the Tortona-Voghera sample, which is located in the open Po Valley, and in Apulia, which faces the Adriatic Sea, while it is present at low frequencies in the Tyrrhenian sample of Calabria and not observed in Sicily. Interestingly, its incidence in the Volterra sample is comparable to that observed along the Salentina Coast and, as in the northern samples, it is mainly represented by the “Balkan” J2b-M241(J2b2-L283’s parent clade).



Similar to J2b-M241, the E1b-V13 sub-clade, which spread from the Balkans is mainly observed in the South of Italy, with frequencies higher than 10% in Apulia; however, unlike the Balkan J2 branch, it is also found in Sicily.





“J2b-M241(J2b2-L283’s parent clade) marks a seaborne route whose contribution is still detectable along the Adriatic coast as well as in populations along the Po Valley, Italy.




E1b-V13 is also observed in Volterra and the Northern Italian groups, mainly in the most accessible areas. This observation supports a Balkan influence in Northern Italian populations as well, most likely through an Adriatic route and along the Po Valley and, to a lesser extent in lateral, more isolated, mountainous valleys. ”


So first things first, the only function of calling it "Balkan" influence when regarding possible ancient migrations is to camouflage and or confuse the analysis under contemporary terms. Key: there were no slavs in the balkans before 6th century, so a balkan influence is basically another way to say an illyrian influence (unless its thracian or dacian which is unlikely).

So Apulia, the adriatic coast that leads to the Po Valley, and then Piedmont at the end of the Po valley, all corroborating a migration. And at the end in the alps we have the Arvan Valley.

Alba Pompeia related to this ancient migration?

"Alba's origins date from before the Roman civilization, connected probably to the presence of Celtic and Ligurian tribes in the area."

LINK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alba,_Piedmont
 
So Apulia, the adriatic coast that leads to the Po Valley, and then Piedmont at the end of the Po valley, all corroborating a migration. And at the end in the alps we have the Arvan Valley.

Alba Pompeia related to this ancient migration?

"Alba's origins date from before the Roman civilization, connected probably to the presence of Celtic and Ligurian tribes in the area."

Some more possible evidence corroborating a westward Illyrian migration.

Similar (to Albanian) cradle construction, ornamentation, baby binding, and transportation in the villages of Fobello and Rimella in Piedmont:

42XiKp5.jpg
 
Bump, since i think this is an aspect of european history that is very unexplored and there are big ramifications if these connections are true, and more important than possible bot user Shane05 who has pushed it out of the feed
 

[FONT=&quot]So, what's similar here:[/FONT]

  • The cradle construction
  • The composition in cradle ornamentation
  • The actual Luljeta symbol present in both
  • The "shawl" for binding present in both, though in the Rimella and Fobello region, only ritualistically preserved, while in Albania infants were bound until very late on.
  • The transportation method of carrying it on the head, though yet again, in Rimella and Fobello only preserved ritualistically.
[FONT=&quot]Here is a photo from the 90's in Albania as further evidence of the djep tradition surviving until very late:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
large_79c05f86046cdee5b8d2be3c34de09c6.jpg
[/FONT]
 
Laberia has brought fourth a very good point. There are mysterious "Albanenses" Manichean Christians who can account for possible early 7th-8th Century contact between the French and Albanians.

The lack of clear sources referring to this contact can possibly be accounted for by the Vatican and French political enmity towards Manicheans, Cathars, Gnostics in general, etc.


[h=1]Albanenses[/h][COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]Manichæan heretics who lived in Albania, probably about the eighth century, but concerning whom little is known, except that they were one of the numerous sects through which the original Manichæism continued to flourish. (See BOGOMILÆ, CATHARI, PAULICIANS.) They appear to have professed a very strict and uncompromising form of the heresy, rejecting all doctrinal modifications as to the eternity of the evil principle, and its absolute equality with the good principle.


"Albigensian Crusade
[/COLOR]
At least 200,000[1] to at most 1,000,000[2] Cathars killed
Considered by many historians to be an act of genocideagainst the Cathars, including the coiner of the word genocidehimself Raphael Lemkin[3][4]

 
I have hard work to accept that a common origin far in past (antiquity, or middle ages) coud have led to common traditional dresses in modern times -
Let's be cautious concerning phonetic similarities in short words in their late aspect
the demic influence of Balkans pops on North Italy is as old as Chalcolithic, so already older than Illyrians (but yes, it doesn't exclude a common substratum)
concerning 'atour', it is too ancient to be explained by modern Breton 'dour' (Welsh 'dwr'/'dwfr', Irish 'dobhar') the Gaulish form was 'dubr-o-' ("water")
&: concerning substrata, we have the second independant 'satemization' of a lot of French dialects (and OIl official French) but the Alps region doesn't seem the place where the phenomenon is the strongest even if Northern Auvergne/Alvernha has the more palatalized dialects of Occitania, spite less than most of Oil dialects...
 
I have hard work to accept that a common origin far in past (antiquity, or middle ages) coud have led to common traditional dresses in modern times -
Let's be cautious concerning phonetic similarities in short words in their late aspect
the demic influence of Balkans pops on North Italy is as old as Chalcolithic, so already older than Illyrians (but yes, it doesn't exclude a common substratum)
concerning 'atour', it is too ancient to be explained by modern Breton 'dour' (Welsh 'dwr'/'dwfr', Irish 'dobhar') the Gaulish form was 'dubr-o-' ("water")
&: concerning substrata, we have the second independant 'satemization' of a lot of French dialects (and OIl official French) but the Alps region doesn't seem the place where the phenomenon is the strongest even if Northern Auvergne/Alvernha has the more palatalized dialects of Occitania, spite less than most of Oil dialects...

I agree. I personally think the further back in time the less likely the cause for these shared elements. But in my honest opinion i am convinced these cultural elements do come from the same root, the more i looked it the more i cant argue for coincidence. Even the folk researcher on his blog seems to have posted this imgur link on his original article and he is much more familiar with traditional clothing than me.

Thats why Laberias mentioning of the Albanenses is interesting as it relatively more recent than the other hypohetheses and it does offer an answer for why such Albanian/French contact could be lost in history (vatican persecution)
 
So, what's similar here:

  • The cradle construction
  • The composition in cradle ornamentation
  • The actual Luljeta symbol present in both
  • The "shawl" for binding present in both, though in the Rimella and Fobello region, only ritualistically preserved, while in Albania infants were bound until very late on.
  • The transportation method of carrying it on the head, though yet again, in Rimella and Fobello only preserved ritualistically.
Here is a photo from the 90's in Albania as further evidence of the djep tradition surviving until very late:
large_79c05f86046cdee5b8d2be3c34de09c6.jpg


wow

IS THAT ON THE WALL an AK-47
 
In the middle of Savoie, in the Auvergne-Rhone Alps region of France, there is a valley called the Arvan Valley (Vallee des Arves) surrounded by many more Alb/Arb/ARv toponyms. These toponyms are off course named after the Arverni tribe, a large ancient celtic tribe from which the Auvergne region derives its name.

What is shocking though is that these people in this region have an extremely similar folk dress to Albanian highlanders!

Arverne, (similar to the ethnonym Arber(tosk) or Arben(gheg)) location belongs to the ancient Gaelic province: Gallia N-ARBON-nensis, mentioned by Plinius the Elder:

That part of the Gallias which is washed by the inland sea is called the province of [Gallia] Narbonensis, havingformerly borne the name of Braccata. It is divided fromItaly by the river Varus, and by the range of the Alps, thegreat safeguards of the Roman Empire. From the remainderof Gaul, on the north, it is separated by the mountainsCebenna and Jura. In the cultivation of the soil, themanners and civilization of the inhabitants, and the extent of itswealth, it is surpassed by none of the provinces, and, in short,might be more truthfully described as a part of Italy thanas a province. On the coast we have the district of theSordones, and more inland that of the Consuarani. Therivers are the Tecum and the Vernodubrum. The townsare Illiberis, the scanty remains of what was formerly a greatcity, and Ruscino, a town with Latian rights. We thencome to the river Atax, which flows from the Pyrenees, andpasses through the Rubrensian Lake, the town of NarboMartius, a colony of the tenth legion, twelve miles distantfrom the sea, and the rivers Arauris and Liria

1pv4zl.png


The toponym Arbon (Aρβων) Άρβωνα is similar to that mentioned by Polybus 2nd Century(History of the World) a location in Illyria. This is mentioned by Stephan of Byzantum too (in his dictionary Ethnika), calling its inhabitants Arbonites, Arbonios (Greek: Αρβώνιος) and Arbonites (Greek: Αρβωνίτης) very similar to Arben or Arbanites, the Medieval name for Albanians.

N-arbon in Albanian language can be interpreted as : n'Arbeni=in Albania
But I highlighted 2 names from the toponyms mentioned by Plinius the Elder belonging to (Gallia) Narbon-ensis, which don't need a thorough etymological interpretation:
LIRIA--> (now called Lez) is a very distinct Albanian word, meaning 'freedom'
we also have a name of a town: Illiberis, which perhaps derives from liberis='free people', in Latin language, whose name seems to have been associated with that of the river Liria, flowing near it.

According Plinius the Elder, the people inhabiting the regions from Spain to Latium(Italy), were mostly ALBANENSES, but for some strange reasons, the origin of Albanian people, has never been associated to them, but always to these once then Caucasian Albanians, people culturally extremely different from Arbonites(Albanians), by language, habits and appearance.

 
I agree. I personally think the further back in time the less likely the cause for these shared elements. But in my honest opinion i am convinced these cultural elements do come from the same root, the more i looked it the more i cant argue for coincidence. Even the folk researcher on his blog seems to have posted this imgur link on his original article and he is much more familiar with traditional clothing than me.
Thats why Laberias mentioning of the Albanenses is interesting as it relatively more recent than the other hypohetheses and it does offer an answer for why such Albanian/French contact could be lost in history (vatican persecution)
Johane, the possibilities for the moment are three:
1) A migration of some Illyrian tribes during the antiquity, and here we must see some connection with the Celtic tribes because of toponyms.
2) A migration during the Middle Ages of these groups of heretics.
3) There is no connection, we simply have to deal with a series of coincidences, and here the whole story ends.
In my opinion, of the four elements we have mentioned and that we have discussed here, the ethnographic customs, toponyms, genetics, and religion, the most interesting and the strong point if we want to advance a theory, are toponyms. Genetics can help in this case but we only have that haplogroup map and nothing else. When it comes to costumes, i am not able to express an opinion because it is out of my possibilities.
While on the religious topic, there is this indication of this group of heretics called Albanensi and their connection with the Cathars, but then there is so much fog and it is difficult to say more.
All these elements are interesting but none of the four helps us to draw definitive conclusions.
Anyway, it's a curious and interesting story to discuss, here we are in a forum exactly for that. Also, i would like to thank you because you really did a great job until now.
 
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Johane, the possibilities for the moment are three:
1) A migration of some Illyrian tribes during the antiquity, and here we must see some connection with the Celtic tribes because of toponyms.
2) A migration during the Middle Ages of these groups of heretics.
3) There is no connection, we simply have to deal with a series of coincidences, and here the whole story ends.
In my opinion, of the four elements we have mentioned and that we have discussed here, the ethnographic customs, toponyms, genetics, and religion, the most interesting and the strong point if we want to advance a theory, are toponyms. Genetics can help in this case but we only have that haplogroup map and nothing else. When it comes to costumes, i am not able to express an opinion because it is out of my possibilities.
While on the religious topic, there is this indication of this group of heretics called Albanensi and their connection with the Cathars, but then there is so much fog and it is difficult to say more.
All these elements are interesting but none of the four helps us to draw definitive conclusions.
Anyway, it's a curious and interesting story to discuss, here we are in a forum for exactly that. Also, i would like to thank you because you really did a great job until now.

Thanks more to you, I didn't do much, just collated the work of others. My contribution was that i was lucky enough to find the original Cartulaire de Grenoble mentioning Colonica in Albiadis name since at least 739 AD.

Yes i agree it is a very curious and interesting story and would love to investigate more deeply first hand if i had resources to. Since I don't though I can only try share it in hopes someone who is more able may add to the discussion/research.
 

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