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Thread: Modern Italians who resemble busts from the classical era

  1. #26
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    I'm posting this here even though its in another thread because its hilarious. These reconstructions should not be taken
    serious yet in my opinion..

    LINK: https://www.hln.be/wetenschap-planee...acht~a3a43ca4/





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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    I'm posting this here even though its in another thread because its hilarious. These reconstructions should not be taken
    serious yet in my opinion..
    In fact we are ignoring the reconstructions, and we are only observing the original Roman busts.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I think that Im pretty Roman looking, especially my Papa.

    24131698_10210630213526935_2432994882474577028_o.jpg

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I am copy/pasting my response to this silliness here because it's a more appropriate thread than one on Iceland.

    However, as Pax says, all comparisons should be to actual busts or paintings from the time, not to "reconstructions" of damaged busts. Bottom line: that "reconstruction" doesn't even look like the busts upon which it is supposedly based. He's made to like an alien. Ignore.

    "Northener,
    Strange rejoinder to our discussion, but since you asked me...

    @Members
    I don't see why a reconstruction based on a single or even two damaged marble portrait busts (not, I would emphasize, his actual skull, but two busts she has chosen from among many) would be held to definitely portray his appearance, much less be grounds for speculation about his birth delivery etc.

    Moreover, I don't think this anthropologist did a very good job even in reproducing a life like or even accurate image of the bust itself, whether or not the bust is representative of Giulio Cesare in the flesh. How could anyone think that "reproduction" looks anything like the portrait bust on which it's supposedly based?

    The eyes are definitely not as closely set in the bust as they are in the reproduction, nor is the head so strangely shaped. I'd never guess it was based on these busts. It also took me about two to three minutes of close examination to see what could possibly be the "crazy bulge" on his head. (Some of you don't find a statement like that sensationalistic? What is it? Scientific?) Is she talking about the thing that looks like a fatty tumor or something that's on the left side of his forehead as you look at his face? I can't see anything else that looks like a "bulge" in the "reproduction", much less a "crazy" one. :)

    She also seems to want her cake and to eat it too. The busts, and particularly the busts she's chosen, must be incredibly accurate, well, except for the hair, which must be fake. :) Why? Because they're the ugliest they must be the most accurate? (The ancient sources do say he was balding; perhaps he's the one who set the fashion for the "Caesar" cut. :)) Even if he was balding, how does she know he wasn't totally bald, or to the contrary just had male pattern baldness and a comb "over" or "down". Why would she give him those silly wisps of hair? I also don't get the whole thing about he's stern or whatever she said, not smiling, as if that's a surprise. I'm quite familiar with Roman art and I can't remember a single one where a Roman statesman is smiling. It sounds as if at the least, before she set to work, she should have done a thorough review of Roman statuary.

    Sorry, I don't think I'm being overly sensitive when I say it looks like what we call a "hatchet job". There's also a give away in having to bring it to my attention as well in what was presumably thought to be some sort of "gotcha" moment, although I don't quite know what this has to do with our prior discussion.

    All of that said, I'm sure he was stern: he was a ruthless general and a ruthless politician. You don't rise to those heights otherwise. I would bet he also wasn't what they or we would call beautiful. The Julio-Claudians weren't a very attractive bunch, for one thing. No one in antiquity ever described him as such either. Plus, even given the cultural differences in modern versus ancient standards of attractiveness, I don't think any of the portrait busts depict male "beauty". They do depict intelligence, strength, even ruthlessness, but not beauty. I'm sure it was immaterial to him. It was power that interested the Julio-Claudians, not their own looks.

    Indeed, it wasn't even good looks that necessarily interested them in their own relationships. Cleopatra, if the coins struck during her reign are accurate, was a singularly unattractive woman physically, as even the ancient sources hint by never once claiming she was beautiful. Fascinating, yes. Beautiful, no. The same could be said of him. The gossip of the time was that he was insatiable sexually, and never short of conquests, often of other men's wives, even when he was poor and struggling. Of course, when they were interested in beauty, they could buy it.

    Here is the Turin bust, by the way. It's indeed an outlier in the way it depicts him. Does that make it more accurate?


    This is the front view I think. Correct me if I'm wrong.

    Is the unevenness at the top what she means by the "crazy" bulge? Christ, good thing I have a lot of hair and she can't ever see my skull. I have a lot of bumps too. :)

    Anyone have a picture of the Leiden bust?

    I must say it seems Bicicleur isn't the only person from the Low Countries who still harbors a grudge from two thousand years ago. :)

    We get it, you hate him. Do you have to make him look like and label him a freak of some kind? It smacks of how the Lancastrians described Richard III. I mean, I'm sure the Irish hate William of Orange too, and I'm not pleased with the invasions of Alaric, or the Lombards, or Charles V, or Barbarossa, or on and on. I could name dozens and dozens of invaders of Italy. It's not personal at this late date, however. Well, it's personal with Germans during WWII, but that's much closer to home. Honestly, guys, get a grip. If we had this kind of personal animosity for all our foreign invaders we'd hate every nation in Europe.

    Btw, Giulio Cesare was handsome by comparison with some Roman statesmen. Whatever else, they had no vanity if they approved these busts.

    Here's Cato the Elder. He was from a famous Plebeian family of soldiers, and possessor of a magnificent reputation as a soldier, statesman, and sage. My husband likes him: his stubbornness and determination to never give up until his enemies were ground into the dust, I think; I personally think he was a bore. :) I wouldn't put it past him to send a copy of this bust to the Carthaginians. That would give them nightmares and remind them that he meant what he said when he repeated over and over again: Carthage Must Be Destroyed. :)



    Pompeo Magno was no beauty either, nor did he seem like a barrel of laughs, as can be seen above.

    Some other, perhaps more objective "reconstructions" of portrait busts, and not by Italians to my knowledge, I might add.:)

    [IMG][/IMG]

    [IMG][
    /IMG]

    [IMG][/IMG]


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Caligula


    Two singers in folk music group I Girasoli, especially the guy to the left:


    A waiter from my mother's home town, not related to the singers.



    Augustus:



    The baker in her home town:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Caligula


    Two singers in folk music group I Girasoli, especially the guy to the left:


    A waiter from my mother's home town, not related to the singers.



    Except for the ears I fail to see the resemblance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Except for the ears I fail to see the resemblance.
    Really? I'm surprised. I see the same triangular face shape, the very broad skull, the pointed chin, the thin lipped small mouth. The nose is different. I guess I should have posted better pictures.

    Also, we're not going to get clones, but I thought it was the same general type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    The quality of the reconstruction is good (hair, skin) but i don't understand why they did that extraterrestrial head and the eyes are too close to each others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Really? I'm surprised. I see the same triangular face shape, the very broad skull, the pointed chin, the thin lipped small mouth. The nose is different. I guess I should have posted better pictures.

    Also, we're not going to get clones, but I thought it was the same general type.
    It's especially the nose and the eyes (and eyebrows) that differ, but that alone changes a lot a person's appearance.

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    The Ludovisi Battle Sarcophagus. It really is an amazing piece of art, considering the level of detail.

    Here's a link for better resolution: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ps_Inv8574.jpg

    This is a depiction of a battle between Romans and Goths. I think the Romans here certainly resemble many Italians today, and look markedly different from the Goths.

    It is also where my avatar comes from; see the top left-corner.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    What do you think about my brother or me? Haplogroup J2a

    Check out my brother and his long hair lol.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    The quality of the reconstruction is good (hair, skin) but i don't understand why they did that extraterrestrial head and the eyes are too close to each others.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    I saw these pictures of an Italian girl (Caterina Ravaglia)in IronSide's ultimate classification thread and was amazed by how her similar she looks to the Julio-Claudian. That's exactly the same type. She was born in Ravenna and her surname is typical of Emilia-Romagna. I think that may be how the original Italic tribes looked at the time of the Roman Republic.







    In this picture she has a more classical look, as I would imagine a vestal priestess.




    She looks particularly beautiful in that one, although the Julio-Claudian features I wanted to highlight are less apparent.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I saw these pictures of an Italian girl (Caterina Ravaglia)in IronSide's ultimate classification thread and was amazed by how her similar she looks to the Julio-Claudian. That's exactly the same type. She was born in Ravenna and her surname is typical of Emilia-Romagna. I think that may be how the original Italic tribes looked at the time of the Roman Republic.
    Maciamo, don't you see any resemblance with the Italian girl (Caterina Ravaglia)? It's a terracotta portrait (200-150 BC).


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I do see a resemblance to the Julio-Claudians, but it's clear from the ancient writers that they were not all light haired and light eyed. Julius Caesar is described as being "black-eyed" for example. The fair coloring described was, I think, perhaps from the Claudian line, not the gens Julia. I would say the same for the facial structure. The Julia gens seems a bit different.

    Members of the ancient gens of Rome did not all have that collection of features, thank goodness for them.

    Claudius:


    Also, just to be precise, the Claudians were originally of Sabine origin.

    The gens Cornelia was probably also on the fair side if Sulla was typical of his line, as he was famously "golden" haired. The features are quite different, however.


    Scipio Africanus was also a member of the gens Cornelia. They really had enormous heads. That trait didn't die out, i.e. Mussolini (Emilia Romagna) and Luca Zingaretti (Lazio).





    Luca Zingaretti:

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    This is one of the best ones yet. Paolo DeVita, from Bari in Puglia. He has a very Caligula and Claudius like look. So much for Southern Italians can't harbor the phenotypes of the Romans. Not, of course, that this is the only ancient Roman look.

    [IMG][/IMG]

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    One from Bologna: famous chef Bruno Barbieri. It's the combination of that really broad skull with a very tapering, triangular face structure, large nose, and small, thin lipped mouth.



    In some pictures he looks a bit like that horrible reconstruction of Giulio Cesare done by the Dutch:



    He's a totally different type from his co-judge on Masterchef Italia Carlo Cracco:


    He looks a bit like a Kris Kristofferson type to me.

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    0 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Julius Caesar looks more South Germanic than Italian (noticeably, actually) to me, but apart from that, in general, I do think modern North Italians resemble the Roman elite pretty well (but NOT the original Italic tribes, who would be more like those lighter individuals Maciamo posted). Of course, North Italians would resemble the bulk of the Roman population well, and at least compared to the later stages I would say they are actually somewhat lighter.

    Pigmentation of the Roman elite (not in the later stages, where Syrians were sometimes Emperor) was probably somewhat lighter on average than modern North Italians, but in a Marchisio, Totti or de Rossi sense - not anything Northern European, though the occasional emperor, like Augustus, would actually be blonde (who I think would have looked a lot like Erich Hartmann (Nazi fighter ace, somehow managed to shoot down 352 Allied aircraft in the Luftwaffe and survive the war)).

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Rome was and is in Central Italy.
    Somehow some people disregard this obvious fact when they start “theorizing” hypothesis.
















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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    This is a record for the number of wrong statements that can be packed into one post. :)

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Rome was and is in Central Italy.
    Somehow some people disregard this obvious fact when they start “theorizing” hypothesis.


    Wait, I know that - when did I claim otherwise? I was comparing modern North Italians to Romans (which means, at least in England, Roman-era Italians, not people from Rome).

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    This is a record for the number of wrong statements that can be packed into one post. :)
    I honestly still don't see what I said wrong.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    This is a record for the number of wrong statements that can be packed into one post. :)
    Coon described Julius Caesar as having looks more at home in the North (he was referring to North of the Italian peninsula, not Northern Europe like Sweden), and I agree.



    His strong features are clearly reminiscent of Germany. He's clearly of somewhat of a Dinaric strain too, but that also spreads well into Germany. Southern Germany is where this combination of Faelid-like and Dinaric-like features best coexist - it is reminiscent of the Rheinish Bell Beakers (best described as of the Norid phenotype).

    As for my point in pigmentation, do you doubt that Augustus was blonde? Because he was literally described by contemporaries (the Romans could write!) as blonde, and if I'm not mistaken statues of him show traces of yellow pigment for his hair.

    In fact, I was very conservative in what I said - see here: https://www.theapricity.com/earlson/...y/emperors.htm

    Do you also doubt the early Latins would have been relatively light pigmented?

    As regarding my point about the stock of the Roman Emperors being subject to change: I'm sure, being as well versed in history as you seem to be Angela, that you know of Philip the Arab, right? It wouldn't be like you to hastily jump to conclusions...

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    Modern Italians who resemble busts from the classical era

    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post


    Wait, I know that - when did I claim otherwise? I was comparing modern North Italians to Romans (which means, at least in England, Roman-era Italians, not people from Rome).
    Just forget everything you think you know.
    It’s clear that you don’t know ... !
    About this topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Pseudo-science and garbage.
    It is very obvious to anyone with an IQ above room temperature to know what it is that you are doing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Coon described Julius Caesar as having looks more at home in the North (he was referring to North of the Italian peninsula, not Northern Europe like Sweden), and I agree.



    His strong features are clearly reminiscent of Germany. He's clearly of somewhat of a Dinaric strain too, but that also spreads well into Germany. Southern Germany is where this combination of Faelid-like and Dinaric-like features best coexist - it is reminiscent of the Rheinish Bell Beakers (best described as of the Norid phenotype).

    As for my point in pigmentation, do you doubt that Augustus was blonde? Because he was literally described by contemporaries (the Romans could write!) as blonde, and if I'm not mistaken statues of him show traces of yellow pigment for his hair.

    In fact, I was very conservative in what I said - see here: https://www.theapricity.com/earlson/...y/emperors.htm

    Do you also doubt the early Latins would have been relatively light pigmented?

    As regarding my point about the stock of the Roman Emperors being subject to change: I'm sure, being as well versed in history as you seem to be Angela, that you know of Philip the Arab, right? It wouldn't be like you to hastily jump to conclusions...
    There may be SOME overlap in terms of looks between southern Germans and northern Italians. However, Caesar had an ITALIAN face, not a common German face, not even a southern German one. Likewise for Barbieri, who, for what it is worth, is from Bologna, SOUTH of the Po. Now, if you want to talk about faces that tend to a more "Central European" look, that would be Cracco, from the Veneto, not Barbieri, and NOT Caesar.

    The phenotype of the ancient Romans was a blend of Alpine and Mediterranean, and the combination that is Dinaric. It is NOT a phenotype common in Germany, but is very common in Italy.

    Period.

    Clearly, I was comparing these modern people to the Emperors from the Italian peninsula or those born in the provinces of peninsular Italian origin.

    As for your perpetual obsession with pigmentation, I already mentioned above that some of the first families, prior to the Empire, were fair in coloring, such as Sulla, and probably the Claudians. Caesar, described as having "black eyes" clearly was not. In case you're unaware of it, there are "fair" Central Italians as well as Northern Italians, and indeed some fair southern Italians.

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