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Thread: Modern Italians who resemble busts from the classical era

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    There may be SOME overlap in terms of looks between southern Germans and northern Italians. However, Caesar had an ITALIAN face, not a common German face, not even a southern German one. Likewise for Barbieri, who, for what it is worth, is from Bologna, SOUTH of the Po. Now, if you want to talk about faces that tend to a more "Central European" look, that would be Cracco, from the Veneto, not Barbieri, and NOT Caesar.

    The phenotype of the ancient Romans was a blend of Alpine and Mediterranean, and the combination that is Dinaric. It is NOT a phenotype common in Germany, but is very common in Italy.

    Period.

    Clearly, I was comparing these modern people to the Emperors from the Italian peninsula or those born in the provinces of peninsular Italian origin.

    As for your perpetual obsession with pigmentation, I already mentioned above that some of the first families, prior to the Empire, were fair in coloring, such as Sulla, and probably the Claudians. Caesar, described as having "black eyes" clearly was not. In case you're unaware of it, there are "fair" Central Italians as well as Northern Italians, and indeed some fair southern Italians.
    Exactly right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Julius Caesar looks more South Germanic than Italian (noticeably, actually) to me, but apart from that, in general, I do think modern North Italians resemble the Roman elite pretty well (but NOT the original Italic tribes, who would be more like those lighter individuals Maciamo posted). Of course, North Italians would resemble the bulk of the Roman population well, and at least compared to the later stages I would say they are actually somewhat lighter.

    .
    Pigmentation of Central Italians is not that different from that of the Northern Italians

    Face traits are a bit different, for example Salvini is typical of Lombardy (one of the many types)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Julius Caesar looks more South Germanic than Italian (noticeably, actually) to me, but apart from that, in general, I do think modern North Italians resemble the Roman elite pretty well (but NOT the original Italic tribes, who would be more like those lighter individuals Maciamo posted). Of course, North Italians would resemble the bulk of the Roman population well, and at least compared to the later stages I would say they are actually somewhat lighter.

    Pigmentation of the Roman elite (not in the later stages, where Syrians were sometimes Emperor) was probably somewhat lighter on average than modern North Italians, but in a Marchisio, Totti or de Rossi sense - not anything Northern European, though the occasional emperor, like Augustus, would actually be blonde (who I think would have looked a lot like Erich Hartmann (Nazi fighter ace, somehow managed to shoot down 352 Allied aircraft in the Luftwaffe and survive the war)).
    Julius Caesar would never look like a native in Germany. He's mostly Mediterranean with a specificalyl southern look. It's the Alpine types that are common everywhere in Central-Western Europe and make Germans, Italians and also the French overlap in terms of looks. To post an example, this woman (whoever she is, I hope she doesn't mind) could be from Hamburg or Palermo for all I know:



    It's a look that isn't commonly found among Roman busts.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    There may be SOME overlap in terms of looks between southern Germans and northern Italians. However, Caesar had an ITALIAN face, not a common German face, not even a southern German one. Likewise for Barbieri, who, for what it is worth, is from Bologna, SOUTH of the Po. Now, if you want to talk about faces that tend to a more "Central European" look, that would be Cracco, from the Veneto, not Barbieri, and NOT Caesar.

    The phenotype of the ancient Romans was a blend of Alpine and Mediterranean, and the combination that is Dinaric. It is NOT a phenotype common in Germany, but is very common in Italy.

    Period.

    Clearly, I was comparing these modern people to the Emperors from the Italian peninsula or those born in the provinces of peninsular Italian origin.

    As for your perpetual obsession with pigmentation, I already mentioned above that some of the first families, prior to the Empire, were fair in coloring, such as Sulla, and probably the Claudians. Caesar, described as having "black eyes" clearly was not. In case you're unaware of it, there are "fair" Central Italians as well as Northern Italians, and indeed some fair southern Italians.
    I don't look at the pigmentation of the early Roman Emperors as some sort of evidence of Northern European superiority - I was just defending myself against the points you made. It is clear, though, that they were lighter pigmented - you cannot point to examples of fair Italians that go against the trend as evidence. Besides, in talking about appearance, in what world is pigmentation not important?

    From Coon, and agreeing with everything I have said:

    "Historically, the Romans should have been a mixture of Villanovan Italic northeners with Etruscans and Neolithic and Bronze Age predecessors. The little crania material at hand points entirely in the northern direction, and confirms the relationship between Kelts and Italici, insofar as it may be used. On the other hand, the addition of Etruscan mesocephals with Dinaric and Mediterranean elements would not greatly alter the early Kelt-like Italic metrical form.

    The early Romans, judging from the busts of their descendants in the days of Augustus, and of descriptions, were not very tall, as a rule, but were often of heavy body build. Their skulls were flattish on top, and rounded on the sides, like those of the Kelts. The facial features included the well-known "Roman" nose, which may have been partly derived from an Etruscan source. On the whole, the well-known sculptures of Caesar, Augustus, and others, although not reliable from the standpoint of accurate measurement, indicate that a mesocephalic to brachycephalic head form was admired. Their facial type is not native to the Mediterranean basin, but is more at home in the north. Nevertheless, the Romans considered the Kelts who invaded Italy tall and blond; hence the blondism of the Romans, including rufosity, must have been in the minority."

    Besides, if you're slating me, why not slate Maciamo? https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-into-Italians

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    From Coon, and agreeing with everything I have said:
    Coon is obsolete, unreliable, inaccurate. Only Nordicists without any education can take Coon seriously in 2018.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Coon is obsolete, unreliable, inaccurate. Only Nordicists without any education can take Coon seriously in 2018.
    This has hit a nerve with the Italians lol - I disagree, though. Coon has proven himself mostly accurate, aDNA is vindicating a large chunk of his theories.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    This has hit a nerve with the Italians lol - I disagree, though. Coon has proven himself mostly accurate, aDNA is vindicating a large chunk of his theories.
    Do not play with me. My suggestion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Do not play with me. My suggestion.
    Why? Are you going to ban me for not agreeing with you? Because Maciamo has principles, and he has shown himself to stand by them when things like this have happened to me in the past.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Why? Are you going to ban me for not agreeing with you? Because Maciamo has principles, and he has shown himself to stand by them when things like this have happened to me in the past.
    You are here just to provoke. It's obvious. Do you want to deny it?

    I never banned anyone because he did not agree with me. Maciamo knows it well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    You are here just to provoke. It's obvious. Do you want to deny it?

    I never banned anyone because he did not agree with me. Maciamo knows it well.
    I wasn't referring to you. And I'm not here to provoke, just to stand up for a viewpoint. That's the point of discussion, and how conclusions are reached.

    I'm wondering about whether this is the right forum for me, or whether all this is pointless discussion anyway.

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    Coon's mistake was that he thought the Villanova culture to be Italic, when it was almost certainly Etruscan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Coon's mistake was that he thought the Villanova culture to be Italic, when it was almost certainly Etruscan.

    Regardless, they branched from the Urnfield culture, which is ultimately what Coon was referring to. There is a disconnect there which is definitely confusing though. Perhaps the migrants from Urnfield simply took the language of the proto-Etruscans when they arrived in Tuscany.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Coon's mistake was that he thought the Villanova culture to be Italic, when it was almost certainly Etruscan.
    A small mistake. Villanovan culture is the beginning of Etruscan civilization.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Regardless, they branched from the Urnfield culture, which is ultimately what Coon was referring to. There is a disconnect there which is definitely confusing though. Perhaps the migrants from Urnfield simply took the language of the proto-Etruscans when they arrived in Tuscany.
    At the time Coon published his work this was the consensus. Nowadays I think the mostly nomadic Apennine culture with its connections to the Balkans seems like a better candidate for the origin of the Italics. It starts 1500 B.C., 200 years after the predicted Italic-Celtic split in Chang et al. .

    Central European influence definitely reached as far south as Latium and probably brought with it significant admixture, but I don't think that's how Italic languages got to Italy.

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    I've looked at dozens and dozens of statues from the Classical period, and frescoes as well. They do NOT show Keltic people. Where they weren't heavily Med, they were some blend of Alpine and Dinaric. Those skulls are indeed broad above the forehead, but the back is often Dinaric, and the faces are long and narrow, sometimes triangular. The noses are also Dinaric. The closest group to them other than Italians is probably people from the Balkans, which would make sense.

    That doesn't mean that we don't have "Keltic" looking people in Italy, because we do, and more Germanic looking ones as well, and Greek, Aegean looking ones as well, but those aren't "ancient Roman" looks.

    What I and other Italians object to is the constant t-rolling which flies in the face of the evidence which we do have. It's as bad as the whole Mycenaeans were blonde Nordics nonsense, which has now been belied by ancient dna.

    We have to wait and see what more ancient dna from Italy shows, but so far the Remedello people who were supposed to be fair steppe people turned out to be dark haired and eyed mostly EEF people, and the "Italians" in the Langobard cemetery are very "southern" indeed. Now, I expect them to be more varied in other parts of the North, but I think the results from the Balkans, and from the Langobard cemetery in Hungary show that the EEF genotype and phenotype was still very widespread even after the steppe migrations, migrations of people who were by no means all blonde and blue-eyed themselves. People just choose to ignore all the papers that have come out because it conflicts with their prior expectations and their world view.



    I don't know what the heck Coon was looking at, but he was just plain wrong.


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    At the time Coon published his work this was the consensus. Nowadays I think the mostly nomadic Apennine culture with its connections to the Balkans seems like a better candidate for the origin of the Italics. It starts 1500 B.C., 200 years after the predicted Italic-Celtic split in Chang et al. .

    Central European influence definitely reached as far south as Latium and probably brought with it significant admixture, but I don't think that's how Italic languages got to Italy.
    Latin-Faliscan (Western Italic branch) and Oscan-Umbrian (Eastern Italic branch) could have different origins. The connections with the Balkans is often mentioned for the latter.

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    Appenninic started after Bell Beaker so a Central European (indoeuropean) influence is possible, then sub appenninic spread from north to south, not pacifically

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    Modern Italians who resemble busts from the classical era

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post

    Marisa Tomei
    Tomei's parents are both of Italian descent; her father's ancestors came from Tuscany, Calabria, and Campania; while her mother's ancestors are from Tuscany and Sicily.
    [3][4]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marisa_Tomei


    Julia Flavia

    Marisa T.
    (on PBS)

    69.5 Italian
    3.4 Balkan
    2.0 Iberian
    14.6 Broadly Southern European
    3.3 Northwestern European
    3.4 Broadly European
    3.3 Middle Eastern
    0.5 Unmatched
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post

    Marisa T.
    (on PBS)

    69.5 Italian
    3.4 Balkan
    2.0 Iberian
    14.6 Broadly Southern European
    3.3 Northwestern European
    3.4 Broadly European
    3.3 Middle Eastern
    0.5 Unmatched
    She does look like Julia Flavia. She's half Tuscan I think.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Scipio Africanus look alike from Reggio Calabria: politician Marco Minniti. :)

    There's a whole series of busts that look like this. As I said, some internet genius opined that because they were carved of black stone and he had Africa as part of his name that he had SSA ancestry. He comes, instead, from a branch of the "very" Patrician gens Cornelii. The name is because of his exploits against the Carthaginians. I mean, you can never underestimate the stupidity of some people. :)



    He doesn't have a sense of humor either, apparently.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    A "colorized" version of the bust:


    Probably too tan, but maybe he was on vacation. Anyway, there are thousands and thousands of virtual replicas of him walking around in Italy. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    A "colorized" version of the bust:


    Probably too tan, but maybe he was on vacation. Anyway, there are thousands and thousands of virtual replicas of him walking around in Italy. :)
    He definitely looks Italian to me
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    New reconstruction from "Césares de Roma", Nero:











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