Greece was emptied a few timεs because of plagues, who was imported to replace them?

When Paulos says to Timotheos A' chapter 2
8 βουλομαι ουν προσευχεσθαι τους ανδρας εν παντι τοπω επαιροντας οσιους χειρας χωρις οργης και διαλογισμου
9 ωσαυτως και τας γυναικας εν καταστολη κοσμιω μετα αιδους και σωφροσυνης κοσμειν εαυτας μη εν πλεγμασιν η χρυσω η μαργαριταις η ιματισμω πολυτελει
10 αλλ ο πρεπει γυναιξιν επαγγελλομεναις θεοσεβειαν δι εργων αγαθων
11 γυνη εν ησυχια μανθανετω εν παση υποταγη
12 γυναικι δε διδασκειν ουκ επιτρεπω ουδε αυθεντειν ανδρος αλλ ειναι εν ησυχια
13 αδαμ γαρ πρωτος επλασθη ειτα ευα
14 και αδαμ ουκ ηπατηθη η δε γυνη απατηθεισα εν παραβασει γεγονεν
15 σωθησεται δε δια της τεκνογονιας εαν μεινωσιν εν πιστει και αγαπη και αγιασμω μετα σωφροσυνης



He surely does mean only religious affairs
''I do not allow woman to teach, neither to αυθεντειν (correction, mastery, etc) to a man, but only to keep silence

That's a really unfortunate text, but I must say the prevailing opinion among historian and theologian experts about this (and several other) letters attributed to Paul in the Bible are that they are false attributions, because their language don't match the language of earlier letters arguably written by Paul himself, and it's probable that they were in fact written in the end of the 1st century, when Paul had already died decades earlier. Some of these latters are nowadays called Pseudo-Paul's letters because they are under sensible suspicion that they represent letters of later leaders of primitive churches, not Paul himself.

That said, the context in which that instruction is given is clearly about religious affairs. The sentence alone means nothing if you don't read the text entirely and the context that motivated the writing of the letter. He's instructing pastors on how to behave and lead the services and prayers of the congregation, on what is permissible or not, desirable or not in the community of believers' meetings. In the end of the letter the author (whether it's Paul or a later leader) says explicitly that his instructions refer to the proper behavior in the "household of God", that is, during ceremonies and liturgies in a sacred place/occasion:

14 I am writing these things to you, hoping to come to you before long; 15 but [k]in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how [l]one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.
 
I found it in English

1 timothy chapter 2 verb 12

12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man;


the most possible is that Ypateia rejected the Nitra monks as anti-social,
and they attacked Orestes.
then by permission of Cyrilos they attacked Ypateia her shelf.
revenging the death of one of them, the one who almost crushed the head of Orestes.
Anyway,
Both
1. by Christtian law (Paulism, New testament epistoles)
2. by Imperial state law,
she was doomed, for being a woman, and a scientist,
Dark ages, the 'death' of the old religions.

12 Docere autem mulieri non permitto, neque dominari in virum: sed esse in silentio.

Anyway,
have you ever thought that Justinian plague might be due to the medicine laws/codexes
and the burn of the forests?

yet I do not know how Roides calculate 19 000 000
but the number is not big considering the Hellenistic world,
the long time of 6 centuries (20 generations)
just imagine only 10 % for each generation,
in Ephessos was about 1/3 > 33% in one generation.

And I do not think is only in Liturchy or Hierarchy
Paul describes them almost as Devils, especially the widows,
SO I THINK, PAUL SPEAKS ABOUT HIS 'NEW' SOCIETY, TO A NEW PRIEST.
AND IN HIS SOCIETY, WOMEN MUST SILENCED,
NOT ONLY IN TEMPLE, BUT GENERALLY,



 

Anyway,
have you ever thought that Justinian plague might be due to the medicine laws/codexes
and the burn of the forests?


I don't. The ancient medicine (heck, even the 19th century medicine even after the development of the scientific method) was too primitive to avoid diseases as virulent and unprecedented as the Justinian plague. They didn't even understand the mechanisms by which such diseases spread and what exactly caused them (viruses and bacteria).

Also, the Justinian Plague was notoriously preceded by the horrible Antonine Plague and Cyprian Plague during the late 2nd and 3rd centuries AD, still in decidedly pagan and much more prosperous times of the Roman Empire (not to mention the catastrophic Plague of Athens in the late apogee of Classical Greece), which demonstrates that the Justinian Plague was just a more destructive pandemic after many, many others, both big and minor outbreaks.

However, I agree that the climate crisis and conflicts leading to massive displacements and migrations not only in the Christian realms, but also and even more intensely to its north and east, must've hastened the arrival and rapid expansion of new strains of disease to which people had not built up immunity.
 
Paul describes them almost as Devils, especially the widows,
SO I THINK, PAUL SPEAKS ABOUT HIS 'NEW' SOCIETY, TO A NEW PRIEST.
AND IN HIS SOCIETY, WOMEN MUST SILENCED,
NOT ONLY IN TEMPLE, BUT GENERALLY,


Well, then it was a kind of society pretty much like that of the much admired Classical Greece, which was orders of magnitude more mysoginistic and sexist than the already admittedly sexist Roman Era. You people fetishize the Antiquity and overestimate its social advances too much, my friends. It was not an easy and free world for women with or without Christianity, though initially it may have gotten even worse, if only compared to the cosmopolitan Roman world (I'm not sure about later time during the High Middle Ages, where at least thousands of women could and did live mostly independent lives with lots of access to intellectual activities and learning via the excuse of religious monasticism).
 
By the standards of modern feminism, all societies up to very recently were very sexist. We've only gotten anything approaching equal rights in the last 100 years.

So, by modern standards, Roman society was sexist, Greek society was even more sexist, but all earlier societies were "sexist", and today huge numbers of women live in societies far more sexist and oppressive and brutal to women than anything in antiquity.

I don't know about the Middle Ages: it's complicated. Yes, a few women were able to express their minds and spirits through monasticism, but a lot just got tossed in to get rid of them when they had neither a religious nor intellectual bent for that type of life. As for daily life, perhaps you could say at least there was no slavery, but how much better was the life of a serf tied to the land?

In terms of Christianity and Paul in particular, I think we have to remember that Paul was a Pharisee, a member of a very strict Jewish sect. I've been to Orthodox Jewish services, and to this day the women have to sit upstairs, totally separate from the men. The women actually do no praying, or at least most of them don't. They gossip and play with their young children. There is literally no role for women at all in Orthodox Judaism, other than in the home.

Paul is speaking out of his own experience. Whether or not those disputed passages are genuine or not, Paul's was not the only voice in the Church. As Ygorcs has pointed out, there was definitely a role for women in the Church, certainly much more of a role than there was in Judaism. In fact, I've seen papers proposing that women were over-represented among the early Christian converts, and that this was a major factor in the extraordinary growth of Christianity.

It's more complicated and nuanced when you compare the role of women in pagan religion versus the role of women in Christianity. Perhaps in the earlier periods of the Classical World women had some role as priestesses, and there were some educated women, but the cult of the Vestals, for example, was debased. In Classical Greece,there were the oracles, but did they control themselves or were they controlled by priests? I don't think there's much to choose between the role of women in the Classical World and the Middle Ages, frankly.
 
In classical hellenistic world Woman was different than man,
but woman was not forbiden to speak,

the most favorite role for woman was to stay at home at γυναικωνιτης chambers,
to raise their children,
but that did not stop them to become even high priests. political persons etc,
and nobody force them in silence.
yet until their children become 7-8 years old they should stay at home,

just think that at themost typical of polytheistic religion
Deities were 12 and 6 were women,
and women had their own temples,
tottaly different than men,

just find out how many women play a political role in old testament.
 
That's really sad when people deny such historical facts. Just mentioning that in antiquity they had priestesses everywhere. This was an important and powerful position in the society.
 
That's really sad when people deny such historical facts. Just mentioning that in antiquity they had priestesses everywhere. This was an important and powerful position in the society.


Who said otherwise? It doesn’t change the fact that for most women in Ancient Greece, unlike in Rome, women basically didn’t leave their homes, could’t run their husband’s business even as a widow and on and on. Not that Ancient Rome was any picnic either.

Is it too much to expect people to be objective about these things regardless of their national origin?
 
ok

Ηραια, Εστιαδες, Παλλαδες etc etc.

Come on guys, do not hide behind your finger.
half deity was women,
and in most Women deities the priest were women, at least in a high analogy,

plz guys,
 
In classical hellenistic world Woman was different than man,
but woman was not forbiden to speak,

the most favorite role for woman was to stay at home at γυναικωνιτης chambers,
to raise their children,
but that did not stop them to become even high priests. political persons etc,
and nobody force them in silence.
yet until their children become 7-8 years old they should stay at home,

just think that at themost typical of polytheistic religion
Deities were 12 and 6 were women,
and women had their own temples,
tottaly different than men,

just find out how many women play a political role in old testament.

That means nothing when we know that the ordinary flesh and blood women were secluded in their homes under a huge amount of restrictions and basically were second worse only to slaves. They were sometimes even mocked as little more than factories of sex and birth-giving. No, come on you. You shouln't confuse your appreciation for your modern ethnicity with an objective, down-to-earth evaluaton of the practices and customs of an ancient people to whom you're related 2500 years ago. Classical Greece was notoriously mysoginistic even for the standards of the Mediterranean Antiquity.That's just a statement, it has nothing to do even with whether it was better or worse than Christian Greece. Women's lot was in fact surprisingly similar to that reserved for women in the Arabian peninsula in the modern era. They usually didn't even leave their home without a good reason or a male authorization, and they had virtually no accepted role in the economic managament and trade businesses, unlike in later Rome and even, yes, many medieval women in parts of later Christendom (women famously were usually expected to be partners of their husbands not only in the homely activities, but in their public businesses, too) and even in early Islam (e.g. Khadija).The Roman era was much better, but still pretty sexist. There must've been some rational reason for women to have been disproportionately represented among early Christian converts (early, not later, when the religion became much more institutionalized - and harsher, absorbing and legitimizing the customs of the societies around).

In the Old Testament, yes, there are some women with an important political and social role (even if unofficially), like Judith, Esther and Ruth. But that's not the point, especially because we've all asserted here that the ancient Jewish society was very mysoginistic, mcuh more strongly than Christianity in fact, so it's no use comparing Jewish society with Classical Greeek one, they don't contrast a lot. You can't judge the real life of ancient societies based on their mythology. Name some women who were important political leaders in the appex of Classical Greece, for instance. Not Greek deities, flesh and blood important women from the heyday of the Classical Greek city states. There are too few for a reason, maybe even fewer than in parts of medieval Christian Europe (where's the Eleanor of Aquitaine ofclassical, pre-Roman Greece?). It baffles me that you people really want to derive a supposedly "pro-women" society out of ancient societies like Classical Greece, basing your arguments not on historic evidence about real people, real women, but on their religious mythology (that's like evaluating the medieval Christendom based only on their supposedly revered New Testament, as if people were actually so consistent with their faith). As for their having priestesses, the average priestess were in practice not much more relevant politically and economically, but just as revered and culturally relevant and admired, as the nuns and abbesses of the Middle Ages. Many of them even lived in cloisters (o half-cloisters) like medieval Christian nuns. Again, they don't represent the average women of their society.
 
the most favorite role for woman was to stay at home at γυναικωνιτης chambers,
to raise their children,
but that did not stop them to become even high priests. political persons etc,
and nobody force them in silence.
yet until their children become 7-8 years old they should stay at home,
[...]
and women had their own temples,
tottaly different than men,

So let us see: Classical Greece women must stay at home until their children are a bit more grown up, they are rendered even their own secluded chamber inside their homes to be hidden from sight and have their own segregated "feminine space", and their temples were totally different and segregated from that of men. They were not silenced... but couldn't participate in politics as voting citizens, nor even become partners, let alone the owners of trade/service businesses outside their home.

So, it's basically strict gender segregation in a society where supposedly women can have "lots" of important roles (as priestesses, what else? That's notoriously the only space in society where women mattered in Greek society, religious affairs - not really different from medieval Christendom, even though even there they sometimes had their powerful queens and widow businesswomen). And do you really want us to believe that society was not extremely mysoginistic in a way that even the mature (High Middle Ages) Christian societies wouldn't have think of? Come on, guy! LOL

By that token, Saudi Arabia and other hellish mysoginistic places for women are in fact quite fair. I mean, women have their own separate space in the mosques different from that of the men, they can leave their home even when their children are babies as long as that's permitted by her male guardian, inside their home they have no restrictions at all (not even the veil is compulsory) with their male relatives, they can now even work (within or even outside their home) provided that the husband agrees with that. Maybe fundamentalist Islam is not that bad after all.

________________________

P.S.: By the way, I found this interesting article on a book about priestesses of Classical Greece: https://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/01/books/review/Coates-t.html
 
That's really sad when people deny such historical facts. Just mentioning that in antiquity they had priestesses everywhere. This was an important and powerful position in the society.

That's good evidence that they were not completely oppressed, but much like in other eras it's not a good sign when the one only important social role available to women in a society is as full-time religious leaders.
 
The slavic invasion left a really minuscule genetic imprint. For as much as it is advertised by the Slavs, it left minimal imprint. So did the Celts and even the Bulgarians. The only ones that have actually had any impact are the Arvanites.
If the genetic data confirm this hypothesis, then this can be explained because Greece was emptied few times as the title of the thread suggest.
Regarding Arvanites, in my opinion they can be considered the native population of Greece.
 
To all of you, with the respect to the right of opinion.
the believe that ancient world, and especially ancient Greece was misogynistic, is wrong.
there is an answer,

Read correct the ancient theatrical works,
at least Λυσιστρατη Εκκλησιαζουσες
And then why in Makedonia were helmets.

then come back to tell me about misogynistic or the rest.

I think the readers of classical literature, know exactly what I mean.

and even if you still believe so,
after reading the classical works,
compare how many women existed as deities, priestress, or even primary heroes at literature,
and compare it with old and new testament.

as for the power women have,
I SUGGEST READ THE OLDEST ONE, THE HOMER ODYSSEY THE CHAPTER OF NAYSIKA,
not to mention Kirke or kalypso.

plz guys, ancient pagan or polytheistic literature
DOES SHOW WOMEN TO BE SILENCED.

@ Angela
on contradictory, I believe that in Greece women had more power than in Rome.

as for slavery, in Greek there are 2 words, Δουλος and Σκλαβος,
tottaly different in meaning, for δουλοι we are all of us, who work for salary, all working class payed by hour or amount of a work (job done)
σκλαβοι are the ones who work to save their lives, prisoners etc,
and also were the convicts to work for public benefit,

In ancient Greece
WOMEN HAD THE RIGHT TO SPEAK AT COUNSILS, ECCLESIA, APELLA.
BUT NOT TO VOTE, CAUSE THEY DID NOT GO TO WAR.
vote was a man's right, cause he would go fight for the city.
SOmething that did not exist in old and new Testament except maybe the case of Judith.
and I do not think existed even in Rome's Senatus.
 
A quarter of Mainland Greece Y-DNA frequencies are of proto-Slavic origin. Something similar about Albanians too.

R1a1 is not a slavic haplogroup.
 

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