MyHeritage DNA Balkans category refers to the dinaric / epirotic race?

Hello ihype02! On such matters, I personally trust a lot the analysis of Mr Dimitris Lithoksou. He recently explained to me that all these communities (Romioi, Arvanites, Vlachs, some Slavs, even Roma...) were living next to each other influencing each other to some level culturally and linguistically (especially through the words that would enter the vocabulary of the marketplace, of trading and commerce). So he thinks that there were no such processes as hellinisation, slavicisation, or turkification of whole populations. It must all have happened more organically through centuries of co-existence and cultural exchange. From what I have read (of course I tend to have a rather radical viewpoint in comparison to many Greeks) I would think that the Vlachs started forming and developing a Greek identity and conscience (identifying themselves with the Greeks) during the years before-during and after the revolution against the Ottomans. This is my understanding from my reading (of course in my effort to understand the closest to the truth scenario I am kind of rejecting many of the things I read in the process). I guess there is a lot more to read and a lot more to understand for me in the future but I really appreciate Lithoksou for his free thinking and trust his opinion quite a lot on this.
The process of hellenisation of the populations of Greece and Balkans in general was started before the revolution by Orthodox Church, Cosma of Aetolia just to mention a name and was followed by Greek state after the liberation.
 
I am a firm believer that a large majority of the people in one particular area, particularly the farmers and shepherds are autochthonous people unlike the people in coastal cities. The cities, particularly coastal cities were more of a melting pot with traders, invaders etc mixing up with the locals. Absent natural disasters, pestilence and genocide the local farmers stay within 20 km of where they are born. Throw all of that out for the modern era (late 1800s on) or coastal areas.
 
Hello bigsnake49, I think that in general you are right but one has to take into consideration the specific history of each region just to be sure. In the case of Epirus for example, I have read that the Slavs had settled (mainly in the area of Ioannina) in all the valleys, plains and lower mountainous areas as farmers and pastors (one of these villages is also the village where my family comes from) while the Vlachs and Arvanites mostly lived higher up on the mountains as shepherds. On the contrary, in Parga which is a coastal city all the Romioi (Greeks) had accumulated as well as in general along the coast. Similarly all the bigger cities and capitals (eg. Ioannina itself) were inhabitted by Romioi too in contrast to the countryside. The Slavs settled for good and were gradually assimilated (I have read that by the time that the Arvanites arrived -during the 14th-15th centuries- the Slavic settlers already spoke Greek-Romeika). So although what you say generally makes sense, sometimes it is not completely the case. Again, I am sure the real picture must have been even more complex than what I tried to sketch above.
 
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The Bulgarians are not in the 'Greek' reference group.
If that was the case, many Bulgarians would of been 60% + 'Greek'.
The thing is, these commercial companies are clueless when it comes to naming and identifying some groups.
The reason some South Poles and other western Slavs get so much 'Balkan' is because the 'Balkan' reference group is based on samples from Bulgarians and also from Croatians which is quite frankly stupid.
The medieval Croats migrated to the Balkans from the area of South Poland, therefore many people there have similar genetics with Croats.
I also seen many Albanians with 50% + "Balkan' on MyHeritage, some of them are my matches, others have posted theis results on You Tube and these are probably Ghegs but that doesn't mean that they have Slavic dna but because this clueless company probably have samples of Tosks and Greeks and have based this so called 'Greek' cluster on these samples
That's the way it works.
By the way, this is what My Heritage says for the 'Balkan' cluster:
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.6)]
The Balkan Peninsula of Southeast Europe was the first in the continent to incorporate the practice of agriculture brought over from Mesopotamia some 5,000 years ago. It has long stood as a socio-political meeting point, bridging between Latin, Greek, and Slavic cultures in antiquity, Christianity and Islam in the early modern period, and opposing sides during the World Wars and Cold War in recent history. Despite strife and ethnic conflict, the region continues to be a bridge between rich cultures and identities. Balkan music has become internationally popular in recent years; it incorporates Slavic and West Asian influences and is distinguished by its rhythmic energy and danceability.
[/COLOR]
It doesn't say on which samples this cluster was based on, but we can suspect that incorporates Bulgarian and Croatian samples hence many Albanians get high 'Balkan' on this one, because the Bulgarians are also part pre-Slavic and why many South Poles get 'Balkan' because of the Croats, for which I already described why is that so!

I forgot who on TheApricity posted it, but there was a link where MyHeritage said themselves what references were used for each "population". Perhaps Bulgarian was included in Balkan, but Albanian WAS NOT. It was included in "Greek". That much I remember for certain.

Additionally most of the Albanians I noticed scoring Balkans came typically from clans or regions in Montenegro or on its border of Kosova, and some in West Macedonia(not all), that had intermarriages with Slavs. It is inevitable. I know very few Albanians from Montenegro or the border regions that don't intermarry with Slavs there. All the samples I noticed from purely Albanian areas where they are surrounded only by other Albanians score little to no Balkan in MyHeritage. Another 2 Albanians from the same region as me also scored 0 Balkan. Me being the exception considering my mothers grandmother was a Muslim Montenegrin Slav.

Albanians scoring 50 percent whether they admit it or not have DNA most probably indirectly through tribal intermarriage in those border regions and Montenegro. Its natural. We're all human and we all intermix.
 
Hello Dibran, thank you for your explanation. I was surprised to score more Balkan than Greek (45% Balkan as opposed to 41% Greek). My family has known Vlach and Arvanite roots and our village used to be a Slavic settlement of the Middle Ages. This maybe reinforces what you wrote in the end, about the assimilation of Vlachs, Slavs (and Arvanites for that matter).

Hey Alexandra, could be. I know Vlachs intermarried with Slavs, much the same as some Albanian clans take Slavic wives in Montenegro. Even though the children are raised with a purely Albanian consciousness it does not change that through random selection their autosomes from their Slavic mother/grandmother/and so on is transferred over to them. Some Vlachs may also have been Latinized Slavs that then intermingled and were absorbed by naturally Vlach communities. I know for instance Albanians in Macedonia who take wives from Slavic Torbeshi Muslims. Torbesh themselves intermarry with Albanians and even Turkish, over matters of religion. So this is obviously how genes can be transferred by indirect means. Theres also the idea that some claim that these genes could also be older in nature, and a "Northern shift" may be the result of older steppe tribes rather than more recent ones from the middle ages. This is possible(though unlikely). It could be possible for very isolated communities. Through random selection our autosomes typically changes by half generation to generation. So, older genes can be(in most cases) rooted out of the genome over a few generations or so. Nationalism is a rather recent historical development, and these things weren't as stringent then as they are now. I do notice areas of Greece and Albania typically occupied by large Slavic settlements in the middle ages up to the 18th century do have a higher "Northern" shift typical of Slavic populations compared to say Northern Albania, or Southern Greece and Islands, etc. Nationality is after all a human social construct.
 
the last I saw taken from 2 papers one being di Giacommo 2003

date 2011 ....includes the ionion island group

Corfu & Ionian islands (158 samples)

I : 11.4
R1a : 7.6
R1b : 22.8
E1b : 20.3
G2 : 8.2
J2 : 19.6
J1 : 5.1
LT : 3.2
* : 1.9

Most I/R1a in Corfu is probably the indirect result of early medieval Slavs that were assimilated in Byzantium on the main land that arrived as Greek/Arvanite/Vlach speaking. Carrying their settlement names with them, bringing those toponyms as Alexandra mentioned.
 
Hello, Dirbran and thank you, all of your answers are very interesting and helpful! You are right about the idea of nation/ nationality.
By the way, in the K36 report of LM genetics, the Arvanite/ Albanian element seems to be very dominant in me. I have asked him to give me a little more explanation about my report in general and I am waiting for his answer.
 
Alexandra and Dibran, your comments confirm certain things about the Greeks, the Vlachs, the Slavs. Generally, the Vlachs as well as the Albanians constituted quite enclosed communities, unlike the Greeks from the cities that were more heterogeneous than I know. This is due to the fact that initially there were groups of local pastors who lived in the mountains. Their native character is also felt in the physical aspect of many Vlachs, many like the Southern Albanians, a certain homogeneity and unity in terms of physical traits. But it is true that I see in their case a slight slav influence even though many can show more Greeks than the Greeks, not accidentally resulted and many results are at MyHeritage with great Greek percentages. What about the Balkan category I think it refers to the mix between the native Vlachs and the North Slavs who have assimilated in the region. I m ethnic vlach, I have a mix of Slavic and Greek traits
 
Alexandra i search a lot

I did not found any comparison among your toponym Kourenta and Slavic,

on contrdictory, toponym like Tzoumerka has Slavic connection, tzouma = tree cutting area, while in my area is the hill with no trees

the most possible if we split word Kourenta
and try to connect it with Slavic might be Karentja
ending -enta more possible - enda sends me to Roman and Germanic
while Kour sends me to Greek and early IE even iranian.

I still do not find any connection with Slavic,
no matter it is a surname in Slovenia,
 
Hello Yetos,
(Guys excuse me the Greek) but these are the two different sources about the etymology of Kourenta. Both agree it is most probably of Slavic origin. The first one offers also an alternative Albanian etymology.
1) "Το όνομα το πήρε, κατά τον Λαμπρίδη από το όνομα του Σλάβου ζουπάνου Κούρεντα. Δεν αποκλείεται όμως, κατά τον Οικονόμου, να προέρχεται από το αλβανικό kurent "το ρεύμα, ο χείμαρρος", καθώς η εδαφολογική διαμόρφωση της περιοχής ανταποκρίνεται, αφού το χωριό βρίσκεται στην αριστερή πλευρά λάκκου, στο βάθος του οποίου ρέει ο ορμητικός, ιδιαίτερα τον χειμώνα, παραπόταμος του Καλαμά, Κοροκόλακκος"."
2) (Αναφέρεται στα Πράμαντα αρχικά: )"Υπάρχει εν τούτοις γνώμη, πως το όνομα του χωριού είναι μάλλον σλάβικο άδηλου σημασίας, συνοικισμός του χωριού έγινε σε προϋπάρχον τοπωνύμιο όπως συμβαίνει κατά κανόνα. Ομοιοκατάληκτα του δε έχουμε τα χωριονύμια "Άγναντα" της ίδιας επαρχίας και «Κούρεντα» της επαρχίας Κουρέντων. Οι λέξεις πράματα που λαός λέει τα μεγάλα ζώα και ιδίως τα φορτηγά.(γεν. πραματιών) και πραμάτεια, δηλ τα εμπορεύματα, ελαφρώς διαφέρουσες από το όνομα του χωριού δεν έχουν βέβαια καμία σχέση μαζί του. Το όνομα του χωριού προφανώς κυριώνυμο διασώζει αυτό του πρώτου οικιστή κυρίαρχή του. Ο Λαμπρίδης γράφει για το όνομα των Κουρέντων, πως αυτό είναι «ζουπάνου όνομα, όπερ από αρσενικού (Κούρεντα) εις ουδέτερον και πληθυντικού αριθμού ετράπη προς δήλωση των πολλών ίσως συνοικιών εξ ών και νυν το ομώνυμον χωριόν συνίσταται» (Γ' σελ.4). αιτία είναι, πως μάλλον λόγω ευφωνίας έγινε με τον καιρό γλωσσική μεταλλαγή του ονόματος σε πληθυντικό ουδετέρου από γενική δηλαδή κτητική ενικού του αρσενικού σε ονομαστική πληθυντική ουδετέρου, καθώς του Καβάσιλα - τα Καβάσιλα, του Καρδαμίτση - τα Καρδαμίτσια, του Γεωργάνου - οι Γιωργανοί κλπ χωριά της περιοχής. Αν και στη περίπτωση του χωριού με τις πολλές συνοικίες συμβαίνει το ίδιο μ’ αυτή των Κουρέντων ίσως να συμφωνήσουμε, και του Πράμαντα λοιπόν τα Πράμαντα. Άλλωστε και τα περί τα Πράμαντα χωριά είναι στη μεγάλη τους πλειοψηφία ξενώνυμα και δη σλαβώνυμα καθώς Κοσοβίστα, Κουκουλίτσα, Γκρετσίστα, Λεπιανά, Σχορέτσαινα, Βουλγαρέλι κα."
The same (see last sentence) goes also for the villages of Kourenta, the majority used to have names of Slavic origin. I have posted a list of these villages in the thread I had started about the Vajunites.
 
Hello Yetos,
(Guys excuse me the Greek) but these are the two different sources about the etymology of Kourenta. Both agree it is most probably of Slavic origin. The first one offers also an alternative Albanian etymology.
1) "Το όνομα το πήρε, κατά τον Λαμπρίδη από το όνομα του Σλάβου ζουπάνου Κούρεντα. Δεν αποκλείεται όμως, κατά τον Οικονόμου, να προέρχεται από το αλβανικό kurent "το ρεύμα, ο χείμαρρος", καθώς η εδαφολογική διαμόρφωση της περιοχής ανταποκρίνεται, αφού το χωριό βρίσκεται στην αριστερή πλευρά λάκκου, στο βάθος του οποίου ρέει ο ορμητικός, ιδιαίτερα τον χειμώνα, παραπόταμος του Καλαμά, Κοροκόλακκος"."
2) (Αναφέρεται στα Πράμαντα αρχικά: )"Υπάρχει εν τούτοις γνώμη, πως το όνομα του χωριού είναι μάλλον σλάβικο άδηλου σημασίας, συνοικισμός του χωριού έγινε σε προϋπάρχον τοπωνύμιο όπως συμβαίνει κατά κανόνα. Ομοιοκατάληκτα του δε έχουμε τα χωριονύμια "Άγναντα" της ίδιας επαρχίας και «Κούρεντα» της επαρχίας Κουρέντων. Οι λέξεις πράματα που λαός λέει τα μεγάλα ζώα και ιδίως τα φορτηγά.(γεν. πραματιών) και πραμάτεια, δηλ τα εμπορεύματα, ελαφρώς διαφέρουσες από το όνομα του χωριού δεν έχουν βέβαια καμία σχέση μαζί του. Το όνομα του χωριού προφανώς κυριώνυμο διασώζει αυτό του πρώτου οικιστή κυρίαρχή του. Ο Λαμπρίδης γράφει για το όνομα των Κουρέντων, πως αυτό είναι «ζουπάνου όνομα, όπερ από αρσενικού (Κούρεντα) εις ουδέτερον και πληθυντικού αριθμού ετράπη προς δήλωση των πολλών ίσως συνοικιών εξ ών και νυν το ομώνυμον χωριόν συνίσταται» (Γ' σελ.4). αιτία είναι, πως μάλλον λόγω ευφωνίας έγινε με τον καιρό γλωσσική μεταλλαγή του ονόματος σε πληθυντικό ουδετέρου από γενική δηλαδή κτητική ενικού του αρσενικού σε ονομαστική πληθυντική ουδετέρου, καθώς του Καβάσιλα - τα Καβάσιλα, του Καρδαμίτση - τα Καρδαμίτσια, του Γεωργάνου - οι Γιωργανοί κλπ χωριά της περιοχής. Αν και στη περίπτωση του χωριού με τις πολλές συνοικίες συμβαίνει το ίδιο μ’ αυτή των Κουρέντων ίσως να συμφωνήσουμε, και του Πράμαντα λοιπόν τα Πράμαντα. Άλλωστε και τα περί τα Πράμαντα χωριά είναι στη μεγάλη τους πλειοψηφία ξενώνυμα και δη σλαβώνυμα καθώς Κοσοβίστα, Κουκουλίτσα, Γκρετσίστα, Λεπιανά, Σχορέτσαινα, Βουλγαρέλι κα."
The same (see last sentence) goes also for the villages of Kourenta, the majority used to have names of Slavic origin. I have posted a list of these villages in the thread I had started about the Vajunites.

and that is strange
for example κουκουλιτσα is a word that can be found even in Turkish,
my grand father called my aunt koykoylitsa, means the silk worm when is in it cell.

while κοσυβιτσα surely has a Slavic endind.
 
Ciao, Balkan1992, I cannot open the attachment.
 
I forgot who on TheApricity posted it, but there was a link where MyHeritage said themselves what references were used for each "population". Perhaps Bulgarian was included in Balkan, but Albanian WAS NOT. It was included in "Greek". That much I remember for certain.

Additionally most of the Albanians I noticed scoring Balkans came typically from clans or regions in Montenegro or on its border of Kosova, and some in West Macedonia(not all), that had intermarriages with Slavs. It is inevitable. I know very few Albanians from Montenegro or the border regions that don't intermarry with Slavs there. All the samples I noticed from purely Albanian areas where they are surrounded only by other Albanians score little to no Balkan in MyHeritage. Another 2 Albanians from the same region as me also scored 0 Balkan. Me being the exception considering my mothers grandmother was a Muslim Montenegrin Slav.

Albanians scoring 50 percent whether they admit it or not have DNA most probably indirectly through tribal intermarriage in those border regions and Montenegro. Its natural. We're all human and we all intermix.



what happened to Slavic DNA? did south Slavs changed so much genetically as to not have their original genes?
 
The Bulgarians are not in the 'Greek' reference group.
If that was the case, many Bulgarians would of been 60% + 'Greek'.
The thing is, these commercial companies are clueless when it comes to naming and identifying some groups.
The reason some South Poles and other western Slavs get so much 'Balkan' is because the 'Balkan' reference group is based on samples from Bulgarians and also from Croatians which is quite frankly stupid.
The medieval Croats migrated to the Balkans from the area of South Poland, therefore many people there have similar genetics with Croats.
I also seen many Albanians with 50% + "Balkan' on MyHeritage, some of them are my matches, others have posted theis results on You Tube and these are probably Ghegs but that doesn't mean that they have Slavic dna but because this clueless company probably have samples of Tosks and Greeks and have based this so called 'Greek' cluster on these samples
That's the way it works.
By the way, this is what My Heritage says for the 'Balkan' cluster:
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.6)]
The Balkan Peninsula of Southeast Europe was the first in the continent to incorporate the practice of agriculture brought over from Mesopotamia some 5,000 years ago. It has long stood as a socio-political meeting point, bridging between Latin, Greek, and Slavic cultures in antiquity, Christianity and Islam in the early modern period, and opposing sides during the World Wars and Cold War in recent history. Despite strife and ethnic conflict, the region continues to be a bridge between rich cultures and identities. Balkan music has become internationally popular in recent years; it incorporates Slavic and West Asian influences and is distinguished by its rhythmic energy and danceability.
[/COLOR]
It doesn't say on which samples this cluster was based on, but we can suspect that incorporates Bulgarian and Croatian samples hence many Albanians get high 'Balkan' on this one, because the Bulgarians are also part pre-Slavic and why many South Poles get 'Balkan' because of the Croats, for which I already described why is that so!


You have given the best explanation, they have no clue what they are talking about. Balkan genetic is not like English, Swedish or Irish genetics. The peoples faces show the genetic mix of Caucasian populations , it has been the melting pot for reasons of civilizations developed in the area. I was watching with my wife the Swedish soccer team. When they were substituting their players we thought that the new player was already playing because they looked the same on tv . Also we had the same problem with Korean team. That because of not diverse genetics.

Greek should not be as reference genetically because is very mixed. Then the stupidities comes from taking Greek as reference. Albanians score 90% Greek in average, Greeks score around 55% in average. That mean Albanians are more Greeks in their DNA than Greeks, How stupid can that be for a company calling themselves scientific. If Albanians score more Greek than Greeks why are they called Albanians.
I suspect Greeks work in this company since they have very large immigrant population and from they desire to keep Greek as special the idiocy comes out
 
Hello Tutkun Arnaut,
Yes, Greeks are considerably mixed like most other Balkan peoples. But I don't think many Greeks work in the company, since MyHeritage is an Israeli company with its headquarters being in Or Yehuda in Israel. Maybe their categorisation of the Balkan region as well as their reference populations are not ideal but I really find it quite improbable that this is because of Greeks working in it, LOL :-D
 
You have given the best explanation, they have no clue what they are talking about. Balkan genetic is not like English, Swedish or Irish genetics. The peoples faces show the genetic mix of Caucasian populations , it has been the melting pot for reasons of civilizations developed in the area. I was watching with my wife the Swedish soccer team. When they were substituting their players we thought that the new player was already playing because they looked the same on tv . Also we had the same problem with Korean team. That because of not diverse genetics.

Greek should not be as reference genetically because is very mixed. Then the stupidities comes from taking Greek as reference. Albanians score 90% Greek in average, Greeks score around 55% in average. That mean Albanians are more Greeks in their DNA than Greeks, How stupid can that be for a company calling themselves scientific. If Albanians score more Greek than Greeks why are they called Albanians.
I suspect Greeks work in this company since they have very large immigrant population and from they desire to keep Greek as special the idiocy comes out


No comment ,
GIGS
 
I agree, Greeks even Italian can not be a reference population
 

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