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Thread: MyHeritage DNA Balkans category refers to the dinaric / epirotic race?

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    Laberia, both -itsa and -ista(-iste) are valid. The latter usually denotes a place (comp. russ."kladbiste" ,bulg. "grobiste"; Сечище/Сечища Seqishtë или Seqishta etc.)

    -itsa is the diminutive form of feminine gender words. There are many toponyms with this ending like Elshitsa, Voditsa ,Boimitsa , Banitsa etc. . Some words with this suffix usually mean a building(or confined space) related to certain activity...like in rabotilnitsa(συνεργείο); melnitsa (gristmill); pivnitsa (pub) etc.

    bigsnake49, the reference populations might be the same,but can be (and are) grouped in different geogr. regions by the various testing companies. You can check their white papers .You've already noticed that one tester's raw data from different companies produces similar results on Gedmatch...On a sidenote,our Ancestry results are very similar(mine have not been updated yet...43%Italy/Greece;36%Europe East;16%Caucasus..."Greece,Turkey and Albania with 95% confidence level").

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexandra_K View Post
    Hello, Laberia!
    Yes, sure. I don't know if I made any typos (I make quite a lot of them, sorry, it is half the fault of my disturbing automatic correction). But the actual names are Kosovista, Gretsista and Koukoulitsa. So the first two are -ista and the third -itsa.
    Thank you. Probably the prediction on of the phone if you are typing from a cell phone.
    The ending -ista(isht-a in Alb) is Albanian, meanwhile -itsa(ic-a in Alb) is slavic.
    Probably Kosovista is a slavic toponym with an Albanian suffix. Meanwhile Gretsista in my opinion is Albanian. And here i want to quote you from one of your previous posts whe you have noticed this:
    An interesting result showed up when searching "гречиште" (grečište), which side by side translations of phrases in Macedonian, Albanian and Turkish. The term гречиште corresponds to Albanian "greqishte", which is a reflex of the word "greqisht" signifying the adjective "Greek", in this case specifically Greek language. (source)
    You are very correct. In albanian we use to say greqisht for the greek language. But in some part of Albania there are some subdialects where they use to say ç and not q and viceversa but not in this case, i.e. greqisht. For example the English word red in Albanian is kuqe but some people use to say kuçe and probably this the explanation of one of the most used Albanian surnames and toponims, Kuqi, Kuçi, that can be found among Albanians, Arvanites and Arberesh( they use to say Cuccia).
    q = [c] voiceless palatal stop Albanian
    ç = It represents the voiceless postalveolar affricate /t͡ʃ/ in the following languages: the 4th letter of the Albanian alphabet.

    Albanian alphabet
    Meanwhile the word kukulla in Albanian is doll.
    This is my opinion but i am not a linguist and the ethymology of the names and toponymus it`s not a game but a serious thing. For example our best linguist Eqerem Çabej first of all was an expert in etymology.

    I hope i have been helpful, but knowing my flaws in English, i have some doubts. lol
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.
    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.
    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.
    O me zhabat në moçale, o me zhgabat lart në male!
    -Petro Nini Luarasi-

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    Concerning Koukoulitsa


    кѹкѹл҄ь
    кѹкѹл҄ь - м
    Черна гугла, качулка, която се носи от монах с висок чин (black hood,worn by a high-ranking monk)
    Gr. κουκούλλιον От лат cuculla кокѹль Нвб(NewBulg.) кукул диал(dialect) Кукуля МИ Кукулът МИКукалйето МИ Кукала МИ Кукулят МИ (toponyms)


    ...comp.to bulg.dial. "гугла". Nowadays it would have sounded like "Guglitsa"...

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    the difference

    in modern Greek Koukouli and koykoyla

    that is koukouli , from worm to an insect.




    that is a koukoula, the head cover part

    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Thank you. Probably the prediction on of the phone if you are typing from a cell phone.
    The ending -ista(isht-a in Alb) is Albanian, meanwhile -itsa(ic-a in Alb) is slavic.
    Probably Kosovista is a slavic toponym with an Albanian suffix. Meanwhile Gretsista in my opinion is Albanian. And here i want to quote you from one of your previous posts whe you have noticed this:

    You are very correct. In albanian we use to say greqisht for the greek language. But in some part of Albania there are some subdialects where they use to say ç and not q and viceversa but not in this case, i.e. greqisht. For example the English word red in Albanian is kuqe but some people use to say kuçe and probably this the explanation of one of the most used Albanian surnames and toponims, Kuqi, Kuçi, that can be found among Albanians, Arvanites and Arberesh( they use to say Cuccia).
    q = [c] voiceless palatal stop Albanian
    ç = It represents the voiceless postalveolar affricate /t͡ʃ/ in the following languages: the 4th letter of the Albanian alphabet.

    Albanian alphabet
    Meanwhile the word kukulla in Albanian is doll.
    This is my opinion but i am not a linguist and the ethymology of the names and toponymus it`s not a game but a serious thing. For example our best linguist Eqerem Çabej first of all was an expert in etymology.

    I hope i have been helpful, but knowing my flaws in English, i have some doubts. lol
    Hello Laberia,

    Thank you! Well I just wrote you an answer that got lost in cyberspace, I will try writing this again...:-(
    So it seems that these toponyms could be a combination of Slavic and Arvanite words. This sounds logic. The Arvanite presence is very considerable in the broader area of Epirus. The comment about the word "greqisht" was not mine but a Serbian guy's who knows a lot on such matters. I will give him your feedback! Judging from all this info, I too tend to think that the toponym Gretsista could be of Arvanite origin.
    Are you sure though that the ending -ista is only Albanian and not also Slavic in some cases as td120 says in his previous comment? The village where we come from in Epirus was called Tserkovista and this was a Slavic toponym (the village was a Vajunite settlement in the beginning and later it was conquered by Bulgarians and then Serbs). I have even read somewhere that the Slavic ending -ica is sometimes changed to -ista in Greek. I don't know what is more correct though and you are 100% right in saying that analyzing toponyms is a serious task entailing deep etymological and linguistic knowledge.
    Concerning the words, koukoula, koukouli and koukla which are all interrelated (and to which also the Albanian word "kukulla" is connected, I will write again in my next post answering to td120 and Yetos.
    The Albanian word "kuqi" is contained in Greek Arvanite toponyms and surnames, eg. Kriekouki/Kriekoukis (the first one being the toponym and the second one the surname).
    Out of curiosity, my maternal family has known Arvanite roots (Markou family, coming initially from a village of Souli, part of the larger Botsaris family). But during my genealogical research I found out that 2 other surnames of main branches of my maternal family could also be of Arvanite origin. The first one is Kemos for which I found one source mentioning it among Arvanite surnames in Greece. The second one is Zotos, for which I found numerous sources mentioning it as a rather typical Arvanite surname. Do you know something about them? So probably we have more Arvanite ancestry than what we initially knew of.
    Thanks again!

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    Now, regarding the interrelated words koukoula (hood), koukouli (cocoon) and koukla (doll) (also the verb "koukoulono"=to cover/cover up). Greek speakers can read a very interesting article by Sarantakos about the connection among the three words here https://sarantakos.wordpress.com/2009/04/06/koukoulai/.
    Their etymology is the Latin cuculla meaning hood of monks/clergy as in the Bulgarian example above. This was its first use in Greek too. Then its meaning expanded also to cocoon (koukouli) and doll (koukla). The cocoon covers or wraps up the larvae whereas the first dolls were made of wrapped up pieces of cloth (the face was painted on the cloth's surface wrapped around the bulk of cloth which formed the head of the doll). My grandmother from Epirus used to make numerous dolls like that for me when I was a child.
    The Latin word cuculla (which must have been borrowed also in the Albanian language as well as in Slavic languages to signify any of the above meanings) was originally probably borrowed from the "Galatian" (Gaul) language according to Sarantakos.
    Now, toponyms all over the Balkans (maybe mostly of Slavic origin) containing some form of Koukouli/Koukoula etc. must be related either to silk worms indeed or (since it was mentioned that it is often toponyms given to places on hill or mountain tops) they must be referring to the village or place as a "hood" (according to my interpretation) that kind of covers the top (head) of the mountain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexandra_K View Post
    Now, regarding the interrelated words koukoula (hood), koukouli (cocoon) and koukla (doll) (also the verb "koukoulono"=to cover/cover up). Greek speakers can read a very interesting article by Sarantakos about the connection among the three words here https://sarantakos.wordpress.com/2009/04/06/koukoulai/.
    Their etymology is the Latin cuculla meaning hood of monks/clergy as in the Bulgarian example above. This was its first use in Greek too. Then its meaning expanded also to cocoon (koukouli) and doll (koukla). The cocoon covers or wraps up the larvae whereas the first dolls were made of wrapped up pieces of cloth (the face was painted on the cloth's surface wrapped around the bulk of cloth which formed the head of the doll). My grandmother from Epirus used to make numerous dolls like that for me when I was a child.
    The Latin word cuculla (which must have been borrowed also in the Albanian language as well as in Slavic languages to signify any of the above meanings) was originally probably borrowed from the "Galatian" (Gaul) language according to Sarantakos.
    Now, toponyms all over the Balkans (maybe mostly of Slavic origin) containing some form of Koukouli/Koukoula etc. must be related either to silk worms indeed or (since it was mentioned that it is often toponyms given to places on hill or mountain tops) they must be referring to the village or place as a "hood" (according to my interpretation) that kind of covers the top (head) of the mountain.
    There is kind of bird galerida called "kukulj" in Serbian dictionary as far I can find and in Russian "hohol" or something,word reffering to the crested feathers on top of its head,your interpretation seem correct.Russian naming of Kossaks because of their shaved head and hair on top "khokhol" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khokhol There is villages in Macedonia named after "kukla" doll,but reffering to stone pillars perhaps,but they are called Kuklitsa not Kukulitsa https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_town_of_Kuklica.Then i looked into Macedonian dictionary "kukul" mean hood or cap,high place or top,braid on hair etc.. http://makedonski.info/search/%D0%BA...D1%83%D0%BB%20

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    Thank you, Milan.M!
    There is this place, called Kouklioi (pronounced almost like kuklji) near my village. They also give the etymology of coccoon of silk worms for it but it does make me think of the ones you mention in Macedonia (Kukla etc.) because the second "ou" is missing and it sounds more like the word koukla.
    I also read a similar possible explanation referring to large rocks in the area about yet another village, which is in Zagori (to the north of Ioannina), called Koukouli (singular). I don't quite get the connection of the word to stones or rocks, do you? Anyways interesting that the two cases are again similar in some way.
    Also I checked and saw that both villages, Koukoulia and Koukouli, are at 700m. and 1248 m. respectively. Probably both on or around some kind of top or peak. The one called Kouklioi, is at a lower altitude (480 m. if I remember well). Could not verify if this too is at the top of a hill. Could be. However, the explanation given is again the cocoons of silk worms and they mention as proof the existence of many such trees in the village (mouries). Maybe in some cases they refer to tops/peaks, in others to cocoons, and in others to large rocks? I don't really grasp the linguistic/logical link to the large rocks but would like to understand it better.
    Also, only the fact that in Macedonian among the various meanings of the word you found "high place or top", is indicative that my hypothesis could be at least for some of the cases, true.
    Thank you again!

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Alexandra,if you google kuklite+geological or kukla+rock or kuklata+stone you'll find many results with rock phenomenons all around the territory of Bulgaria(from the Black Sea to Pirin and beyond). It's a very common thing... yep,that's what they resemble - standing dolls .
    The other derivative of the greek or latin original nicely depicts a hilltop (kukul,gugla..pointed hood or hat).

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    Alexandra
    there are many toponyms like κοκαλα Κοκκα, κουκουλα, κοκλα in mountain areas, only in my area I know 3,
    their common is that that are small tops, and at one side they are rocky, and on the other have soil, are dry land and spring pine trees


    and no matter koukoula comes from Latin cuculus.
    I do not believe that koukouli comes from cuculus
    rather is combined with Greek κοκκος,
    Notice
    κουκουναρι
    κουκια
    κοκκος σταφυλοκοκος Staphylococus



    Alexandra
    these are κοκκαλα in ancient Greek



    and they spring from koukounaria




    κοκκαλα = κουκουλι

    i am tired of some stupid scholars who like to play the academic and gain a title, and write stupid books,

    Alexandra
    the seeds and the fruit of pine trees are called kokkala in ancient Greek
    with all that can mean, and you are smart enough.
    all the 3 bellow are kokkala while the seed is also know as φθειρ phtheir



    THERE ARE HUNDRENDS OF TOPONYMS IN GREECE WITH SOUNDS LIKE KOKKA KOKKALA KOKLA KOYKOYLI-IA KOYKOYNARIA KOYKOYTSELI
    Koukoula comes from Latin cuculus
    but Koukouli comes from Greek kokkos compare Cocoon,
    also cucculus, cocoa, coconut.
    meaning hard outside seed
    Last edited by Yetos; 14-07-18 at 01:34.

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    Why anybody would use MyHeritage over 23andme is beyond me, the difference in accuracy is astounding. I genuinely believe 23andme is almost never wrong, resorting to little guesswork - MyHeritage has a hella lot of this!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Why anybody would use MyHeritage over 23andme is beyond me, the difference in accuracy is astounding. I genuinely believe 23andme is almost never wrong, resorting to little guesswork - MyHeritage has a hella lot of this!
    Don't 23andme have narrow International availability?

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    Quote Originally Posted by td120 View Post
    Alexandra,if you google kuklite+geological or kukla+rock or kuklata+stone you'll find many results with rock phenomenons all around the territory of Bulgaria(from the Black Sea to Pirin and beyond). It's a very common thing... yep,that's what they resemble - standing dolls .
    The other derivative of the greek or latin original nicely depicts a hilltop (kukul,gugla..pointed hood or hat).
    Thank you, td120! Interesting connection between rocks and dolls. Yes, I am already convinced about the connection with hill and mountain tops in the way you mentioned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Alexandra
    there are many toponyms like κοκαλα Κοκκα, κουκουλα, κοκλα in mountain areas, only in my area I know 3,
    their common is that that are small tops, and at one side they are rocky, and on the other have soil, are dry land and spring pine trees and no matter koukoula comes from Latin cuculus.
    I do not believe that koukouli comes from cuculus
    rather is combined with Greek κοκκος,
    Notice
    κουκουναρι
    κουκια
    κοκκος σταφυλοκοκος Staphylococus
    Alexandra
    these are κοκκαλα in ancient Greek

    and they spring from koukounaria

    κοκκαλα = κουκουλι

    i am tired of some stupid scholars who like to play the academic and gain a title, and write stupid books,
    Alexandra
    the seeds and the fruit of pine trees are called kokkala in ancient Greek
    with all that can mean, and you are smart enough.
    all the 3 bellow are kokkala while the seed is also know as φθειρ phtheir

    THERE ARE HUNDRENDS OF TOPONYMS IN GREECE WITH SOUNDS LIKE KOKKA KOKKALA KOKLA KOYKOYLI-IA KOYKOYNARIA KOYKOYTSELI
    Koukoula comes from Latin cuculus
    but Koukouli comes from Greek kokkos compare Cocoon,
    also cucculus, cocoa, coconut.
    meaning hard outside seed
    Thank you for your input, Yetos. I have to allow it the time to sink in though, because it seems a little far-fetched at first sight.
    It is undeniable that there are many cases of such toponyms (of Slavic origin I personally tend to believe) everywhere in the Balkans and other areas where the Slavs have been/still are. Now if they borrowed the word directly from Latin speakers or indirectly from Greek speakers (who had already borrowed it from Latin), I wouldn't know. It seems to be widely accepted by academics that koukouli-koukoula and koukla are all interconnected and come from the Latin cucullus. I wouldn't know why to question this.
    Your idea sounds interesting but personally I find it a little far-fetched in relation to toponyms such as Koukoulitsa, Koukouli, Koukoulia and Kouklioi that I mentioned. Kokkos and kokkala seem to have another linguistic root to me. However, interesting thought. Thank you

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexandra_K View Post
    Thank you for your input, Yetos. I have to allow it the time to sink in though, because it seems a little far-fetched at first sight.
    It is undeniable that there are many cases of such toponyms (of Slavic origin I personally tend to believe) everywhere in the Balkans and other areas where the Slavs have been/still are. Now if they borrowed the word directly from Latin speakers or indirectly from Greek speakers (who had already borrowed it from Latin), I wouldn't know. It seems to be widely accepted by academics that koukouli-koukoula and koukla are all interconnected and come from the Latin cucullus. I wouldn't know why to question this.
    Your idea sounds interesting but personally I find it a little far-fetched in relation to toponyms such as Koukoulitsa, Koukouli, Koukoulia and Kouklioi that I mentioned. Kokkos and kokkala seem to have another linguistic root to me. However, interesting thought. Thank you

    deidicated to you

    ''Ο Μπαμπινιώτης επικαλείται την ετυμολογία· η λέξη προέρχεται από το κόκκος, και στα αρχαία κόκκαλος ήταν το κουκούτσι του κουκουναριού και το ίδιο το κουκουνάρι. ''

    I am from Makedonia, the most slavizised area of Greece, with surely 24% at all and in some areas peferactures reaching above 36%.
    yet in areas were Slavs did not habbit we see the term also,
    I believe is the evolution of pine tree forests,
    either the words cocoa coconut also have Slavic or Albanian origin,
    If I follow your logic.

    on the other hand toponyms like Tzoumerka indeed show clear a Slavic origin and meaning


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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    deidicated to you

    ''Ο Μπαμπινιώτης επικαλείται την ετυμολογία· η λέξη προέρχεται από το κόκκος, και στα αρχαία κόκκαλος ήταν το κουκούτσι του κουκουναριού και το ίδιο το κουκουνάρι. ''

    I am from Makedonia, the most slavizised area of Greece, with surely 24% and in some areas reaching 36%.
    yet in areas were Slavs did not habbit we see the term also,
    I believe is the evolution of pine tree forests,
    either the words cocoa coconut also have Slavic or Albanian origin,
    If I follow your logic.

    Kalimera Yetos

    I had read this while researching but the etymology from the Latin cucullus still seems more probable to me -just to me, I am not trying to impose anything on you or any other person. Also, I still think that all the toponyms I personally mentioned as well as similar toponyms in North Macedonia, Bulgaria, Croatia, etc. that other people mentioned are related to each other and are all linked to different language versions of the words mentioned above (koukouli, koukoula and koukla). In the case of those villages I mentioned (I am not trying to overgeneralize) I think that their link to the Slavic language is very probable.
    I don't try to prove that everything is of Slavic or Albanian origin , funny that you think so.
    I am just really interested in finding out about small valuable bits that have been covered up or koukoulothikan by our "national blanket". That can hold true for almost every other country or nation, not just Greece. I just happen to be Greek and I feel intrigued to do so in relation to our reality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexandra_K View Post
    Kalimera Yetos

    I had read this while researching but the etymology from the Latin cucullus still seems more probable to me -just to me, I am not trying to impose anything on you or any other person. Also, I still think that all the toponyms I personally mentioned as well as similar toponyms in North Macedonia, Bulgaria, Croatia, etc. that other people mentioned are related to each other and are all linked to different language versions of the words mentioned above (koukouli, koukoula and koukla). In the case of those villages I mentioned (I am not trying to overgeneralize) I think that their link to the Slavic language is very probable.
    I don't try to prove that everything is of Slavic or Albanian origin , funny that you think so.
    I am just really interested in finding out about small valuable bits that have been covered up or koukoulothikan by our "national blanket". That can hold true for almost every other country or nation, not just Greece. I just happen to be Greek and I feel intrigued to do so in relation to our reality.

    I see your point,
    But you seem to exclude also except the Greek, the Aromanian,
    The latin spoken all over balkans,
    well in the Latin there is also the word coccus and Cocoon etc,
    So probably you also exclude the Vlach toponyms,
    i find that from you very interesting,
    meaning the posibility of Armanian origin toponyms,

    as for North Makedonia.
    it will never be such a thing.

    for example you write for Grekista,
    do you know that word is Turkish Ottoman. not Slavic not Albanian.
    and means the preferacture, 'must observe, from Turkish Grek Gerek and Gerekar Gerakur was a kind of field police,
    there are many simmilar everywhere in Greece like Gerakarou, Gerakas etc etc.

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    I don't intentionally exclude the Aromanian origin of toponyms. I just think more immediately of Slavs when the etymology of the word/name in question is Slavic or when it is identical or similar to a toponym found in Slavic-speaking countries. Most often, it is toponyms for which already the explanation I find in Greek sources, mentions them as "of Slavic origin", sometimes without offering any further explanation. So it seems that their origin is mostly something already proven or confirmed, or at least that there is already a strong hypothesis made by an expert.
    I try and want to be as objective and rational as possible when I research something.
    Imagine, if I didn't desire to be objective, I would even have an extra subjective reason in favor of choosing an Aromanian explanation to some of the toponyms over another, since I am myself partly Aromanian (although i don't speak the language). I know that the Aromanians have borrowed a lot of words from Slavic languages. So I can imagine that some of the toponyms of Slavic linguistic origin might have been created by Aromanians and not by the Slavic speakers themselves. The same goes for the Arvanites as users of some Slavic words in their vocabulary too- maybe some of the Slavic toponyms in Greece belong to them.
    But, in almost all of the cases of toponyms I have discussed so far, I had already found Greek sources mentioning their Slavic origin to begin with.

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    Greek Arvanitovlachs (mix of Albanians and Vlachs)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    I forgot who on TheApricity posted it, but there was a link where MyHeritage said themselves what references were used for each "population". Perhaps Bulgarian was included in Balkan, but Albanian WAS NOT. It was included in "Greek". That much I remember for certain.
    Additionally most of the Albanians I noticed scoring Balkans came typically from clans or regions in Montenegro or on its border of Kosova, and some in West Macedonia(not all), that had intermarriages with Slavs. It is inevitable. I know very few Albanians from Montenegro or the border regions that don't intermarry with Slavs there. All the samples I noticed from purely Albanian areas where they are surrounded only by other Albanians score little to no Balkan in MyHeritage. Another 2 Albanians from the same region as me also scored 0 Balkan. Me being the exception considering my mothers grandmother was a Muslim Montenegrin Slav.
    Albanians scoring 50 percent whether they admit it or not have DNA most probably indirectly through tribal intermarriage in those border regions and Montenegro. Its natural. We're all human and we all intermix.
    Your average Albanian on MyHeritage doesn't score up to 100% Greek at all and no pure Albanian is on average gonna score up to 100% Greek, this is simply because Albanians aren't' 100% identical to Greeks in the first place so why would they score 100% Greek, we are actually more North shifted on average, and this is naturally therefore it cannot give 100% Greek, it has to give something else, a more North shift which is why it gives Balkan for example. Your father's results aren't typical. Your mother's results are actually more typical. I also recall your father got Slavic on geneplaza.
    Some of the purest Albanians I have seen that get 100% Balkan on other tests get a mix of Greek and Balkan here. I can easily demonstrate this. And I am pretty sure they are even purer than you.
    The Greek on my heritage isn't solely based on Albanians neither does their map cover all Albanian lands and neither does it peak in Albanians, Greeks on average do score more Greek and Albanians score more Balkan, this due to us being more North. , Greek covers mostly southern areas and I noticed Albos that score up to 100% Greek are Southern shifted , no average Gheg from the North score up to 100% Greek. Their Balkan meanwhile actually covers all lands of the Balkans. This is going by their maps. So that message is definitely nonsense or inaccurately explained by some of their staff which is actually nothing new.
    Autosomally, Kosovar are some of the purest Albanians for sure, also going by peer reviewed studies and IBD sharing that show Kosovars are genetically South Europeans or South East but North of Greeks and every 2nd Kosovar I see get a mix of Greek and Balkan, actually Albos that get no Balkan at all are a minority.., it's impossible for the average Albanian to get 100% Greek in the first place since we are actually more North be it Slavic or not so you're theory makes no sense and is easily debunked because you're actually arguing that Albanians are almost partially Slavic population considering your average scores like 20%-40% I am pretty sure... such high Slav admixture isn't gonna make you plot East of Tuscans or Italians , dude.
    So why would you even expect an ethnic Albanian to score 100% Greek in the first place when we have always been more North than Greeks, makes no sense.., it has to give us some Balkan since we are actually more North.
    Regarding Dibra, I know Dibra was settled by Slavs and Vlachs actually and it's right at it's border with Western Macedonia and the other part of Dibra. Also maybe explains your r1a and why your father got some East Slavic .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Greek Arvanitovlachs (mix of Albanians and Vlachs)
    How do you know that they are a mix of Albanians and Vlachs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexandra_K View Post
    I don't intentionally exclude the Aromanian origin of toponyms. I just think more immediately of Slavs when the etymology of the word/name in question is Slavic or when it is identical or similar to a toponym found in Slavic-speaking countries. Most often, it is toponyms for which already the explanation I find in Greek sources, mentions them as "of Slavic origin", sometimes without offering any further explanation. So it seems that their origin is mostly something already proven or confirmed, or at least that there is already a strong hypothesis made by an expert.
    I try and want to be as objective and rational as possible when I research something.
    Imagine, if I didn't desire to be objective, I would even have an extra subjective reason in favor of choosing an Aromanian explanation to some of the toponyms over another, since I am myself partly Aromanian (although i don't speak the language). I know that the Aromanians have borrowed a lot of words from Slavic languages. So I can imagine that some of the toponyms of Slavic linguistic origin might have been created by Aromanians and not by the Slavic speakers themselves. The same goes for the Arvanites as users of some Slavic words in their vocabulary too- maybe some of the Slavic toponyms in Greece belong to them.
    But, in almost all of the cases of toponyms I have discussed so far, I had already found Greek sources mentioning their Slavic origin to begin with.
    I have already answered you,
    what you do not want to see is this,
    the admixture of Slavic populations in Greece via straight S Slavic or via Armani is not a thing that can be κουκουλωθει as you mention,
    But what you deny to see are these 2
    1. islands have the lowest even negative 0% of Slavic,
    yet there is a 'scholar' that considers islands the most slavic areas,
    he just says that word χωρα hora (capital of the island) comes from Slavic word Goranjie =mountain
    so just think what a mess can be created by just a messy stupid 'scholar' who writes whatever.
    especially at Athens Academy of 1900's there were several such stupids,
    which today a modern Greek student reads them and laugh.


    2 the toponym must have a characteristic of the description in the language,
    for example the word Helmos in Peloponese is Slavic, which cognates with the characteristic shape of the mountain
    the Greek word is Aroania
    so if the toponym has a pine tree forest, or a hidden valley and is named koukouli, there is not need to express to search more.

    that is due to sounds of Languages,
    for example look at Albania, they have an area called Pojan,
    searching history you can easily understand that is Apollonia.
    the shifting changes does not always mean an origin of the toponym.

    Linguistic is a very hard science,
    harder than you can think,
    when I found that Thomopoulos wrote about Pelasgian language
    I search and found his book,
    he was member of Athens Academy,
    when I read it, I found that more than 66% was just stupidities and ignorance.
    while the rest 33% just worthy to search for more,
    yet with such stupidity he earned a 'bravo' from the academy.

    as for your Vajunites,
    stop searching them in Epirus
    they moved to Thessaly and upper Makedonia,
    they were bilingual Slavic and Aromanian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    I have already answered you,
    what you do not want to see is this,
    the admixture of Slavic populations in Greece via straight S Slavic or via Armani is not a thing that can be κουκουλωθει as you mention,
    But what you deny to see are these 2
    1. islands have the lowest even negative 0% of Slavic,
    yet there is a 'scholar' that considers islands the most slavic areas,
    he just says that word χωρα hora (capital of the island) comes from Slavic word Goranjie =mountain
    so just think what a mess can be created by just a messy stupid 'scholar' who writes whatever.
    especially at Athens Academy of 1900's there were several such stupids,
    which today a modern Greek student reads them and laugh.


    2 the toponym must have a characteristic of the description in the language,
    for example the word Helmos in Peloponese is Slavic, which cognates with the characteristic shape of the mountain
    the Greek word is Aroania
    so if the toponym has a pine tree forest, or a hidden valley and is named koukouli, there is not need to express to search more.

    that is due to sounds of Languages,
    for example look at Albania, they have an area called Pojan,
    searching history you can easily understand that is Apollonia.
    the shifting changes does not always mean an origin of the toponym.

    Linguistic is a very hard science,
    harder than you can think,
    when I found that Thomopoulos wrote about Pelasgian language
    I search and found his book,
    he was member of Athens Academy,
    when I read it, I found that more than 66% was just stupidities and ignorance.
    while the rest 33% just worthy to search for more,
    yet with such stupidity he earned a 'bravo' from the academy.

    as for your Vajunites,
    stop searching them in Epirus
    they moved to Thessaly and upper Makedonia,
    they were bilingual Slavic and Aromanian.
    Yetos,

    I have read quite a lot about "my" Vajunites (from the few sources that exist) and I know that their presence in Epirus is almost certain. Thesprotia used to be called Vagenetia, which derives from their name. Epirus has 412 Slavic toponyms, a great number of which must be attributed ALSO to them. I have never read that the Vajunites spoke Aromanian to begin with. Can you cite a source for this information?
    As far as our village, Tserkovista, is concerned I have read that it was a Vajunite settlement in a book written by historian Tziovas about our village. His sources on this specific matter are Bettis, Al. Diomidis and Nystazopoulou-Pelekidou.
    Besides, I never thought or implied that the Greek islands have had a strong Slavic presence- on the contrary. The few Slavic toponyms on some islands reveal some limited Slavic presence there as opposed to continental Greece where their presence had been more considerable. I do not know if you confuse it with the Arvanite presence I mentioned in the cases of Kefalonia and Kea (again I do not know the degree of the presence but I know there have been Arvanites on both islands). Again, my father (with origins from Kefalonia and Kea which are close to the mainland) as an individual (and I do not try to over-generalize!) has some considerable Arvanite admixture and also some Slavic admixture. Kefalonites have had a link to Romania too. I don't know if he is an exception or not. I can't say, because I have not seen other data from the two islands to compare his to.
    Finally, being applauded or not by the Academy does not neccessarily signify the quality of one's work to me. There are autonomous scholars like Mr. Lithoksoou whose work is extremely valuable and is not recognized by the status quo. His work on the relation between "modern Greek" (Romeika) and Pre-hellenic languages is immensely interesting, by the way. I unfortunately do not know Thomopoulos nor his work and thus I do not have an opinion about them, but this example was actually also irrelevant to the subject I was discussing.
    I am sending you a private message about an important clarification I feel the need to make to you.
    Thank you

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    there are many toponyms like κοκαλα Κοκκα, κουκουλα, κοκλα in mountain areas, only in my area I know 3,
    their common is that that are small tops, and at one side they are rocky, and on the other have soil, are dry land and spring pine trees

    and no matter koukoula comes from Latin cuculus.
    I do not believe that koukouli comes from cuculus
    rather is combined with Greek κοκκος,
    Notice
    κουκουναρι
    κουκια
    κοκκος σταφυλοκοκος Staphylococus

    these are κοκκαλα in ancient Greek

    and they spring from koukounaria

    κοκκαλα = κουκουλι

    i am tired of some stupid scholars who like to play the academic and gain a title, and write stupid books,

    Alexandra
    the seeds and the fruit of pine trees are called kokkala in ancient Greek
    with all that can mean, and you are smart enough.
    all the 3 bellow are kokkala while the seed is also know as φθειρ phtheir


    THERE ARE HUNDRENDS OF TOPONYMS IN GREECE WITH SOUNDS LIKE KOKKA KOKKALA KOKLA KOYKOYLI-IA KOYKOYNARIA KOYKOYTSELI
    Koukoula comes from Latin cuculus
    but Koukouli comes from Greek kokkos compare Cocoon,
    also cucculus, cocoa, coconut.
    meaning hard outside seed

    You are right, the origin coming from Latin Cuculus (Cuckoo bird) makes no sense.

    In Albanian however, I'm sure you weren't aware. The word for Head is Kokë.

    The word for seeds in Albanian is Kokrra. It seems the Albanian fits more organically.



    kokë


    Noun


    kokë f (indefinite plural kokë, definite singular koka, definite plural kokët)

    1. head
    2. heading
    3. spherical object, e.g. bulb, knob
    4. top portion, front, main part
    5. (colloquial) heads (of coin)

    Synonyms


    1. krye




    kokërr

    Etymology


    Derivative of kokë.[1]


    Noun


    kokërr f (indefinite plural kokrra, definite singular kokrra, definite plural kokrrat)

    1. small round or oval-shaped unit of a concrete thing, e.g.
      1. head (of fruit or vegetable), piece (of fruit), berry, nut, kernel
      2. chunk, granule, bead, ball, nugget

    2. small roundish object taken as an exemplar of a thing: piece, head
    3. countable individual of a class
    4. (colloquial) nub of the matter
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    The latin root of "Κουκούλι" is not cuculus but cucullus with double "ll" which means "cover"/ "hood".

    English[edit]

    Etymology[edit]

    Latin cucullus (“hood”)
    Noun[edit]

    cucullus (plural cuculli)

    1. (botany) A hood-shaped organ, resembling a cowl or monk's hood, as of certain concave and arched sepals or petals.
    2. (zoology) A colour marking or structure on the head somewhat resembling a hood.


    Latin[edit]

    Alternative forms[edit]


    Etymology[edit]

    A reduplicative form of Proto-Indo-European *kuH-l-, zero-grade without s-mobile form of *(s)kewH- (“to cover”). Cognates include Latin cūlus, Old Irish cúl (“bottom”), Lithuanian kẽvalas (“skin, cover”) and indirectly Old English hȳd (English hide). Related to obscūrus (“dark, obscure”) and cutis (“hide”).
    Pronunciation[edit]


    Noun[edit]

    cucullus m (genitive cucullī); second declension

    1. a covering for the head, hood, cowl
    2. a conical wrapper or case

    Inflection[edit]

    Second declension.
    Derived terms[edit]


    Descendants[edit]






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