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Thread: Denmark's new laws for immigrants in "ghettos"

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    Denmark's new laws for immigrants in "ghettos"

    Goodness knows that I've been a proponent for better integration of immigrants from third world countries, but this sounds draconian. I could never support this: taking children away from their parents for 25 hours a week, mandatory instruction in "Christmas and Easter", etc.

    Is this true, and if it is, would the EU have any say?

    See:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/w...t-ghettos.html


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    I don't know, but from related articles from the same paper :

    The rapid ascent of populists in Italy — the birthplace of Fascism, a founding member of the European Union, and the bloc’s fourth-largest economy — shattered the nation’s decades-old party system.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/23/w...&region=Footer

    I don't know either, but maybe you can frame this one.

    I think they like to blow things out of proportion.

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    Children of illegal immigrants here are being separated from their parents which is a solution that is just cruel, evil and inhumane as well as nonsensical. What on earth could separating children from their parents possibly solve?

    Anyone who supports something like this is wicked.

    Edit: got 3 shiny downvotes, how swell! I think I offended certain people who support children being locked away for having illegal immigrant parents!
    Last edited by davef; 06-07-18 at 04:39.
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    Denmark's new laws for immigrants in "ghettos"

    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I don't know, but from related articles from the same paper :

    The rapid ascent of populists in Italy — the birthplace of Fascism, a founding member of the European Union, and the bloc’s fourth-largest economy — shattered the nation’s decades-old party system.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/23/w...&region=Footer

    I don't know either, but maybe you can frame this one.

    I think they like to blow things out of proportion.
    Now you know too,
    It’s about Denmark, so stick with it.
    Don’t deflect the thread by naming other Countries.
    Naming and linking that “unrelated OLD article” is gratuitous and uncalled for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I don't know, but from related articles from the same paper :

    The rapid ascent of populists in Italy — the birthplace of Fascism, a founding member of the European Union, and the bloc’s fourth-largest economy — shattered the nation’s decades-old party system.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/23/w...&region=Footer

    I don't know either, but maybe you can frame this one.

    I think they like to blow things out of proportion.
    I agree with Salento. This comment is indeed totally uncalled for. What is happening to you, Bicicleur? This has nothing to do with Italy or with any country not wanting any more immigrants from third world countries.

    As for Lega Nord, if you think I ever voted for them, or ever supported their racist comments, you haven't been paying attention.

    This thread is about one law, reported on by the New York Times, not me. Let's keep to the topic.

    I don't care what country passed such a law. If it is as reported I'm totally against it. You can't take people's children from them against their will for "acculturation" courses. It smacks of the old American practice of taking American Indian children from their parents and towns and sending them to boarding schools where they could only speak English and couldn't practice any of their native culture. That was horrible and disgusting too.

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    Denmark's new laws for immigrants in "ghettos"

    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Children of illegal immigrants here are being separated from their parents which is a solution that is just cruel, evil and inhumane as well as nonsensical. What on earth could separating children from their parents possibly solve?

    Anyone who supports something like this is wicked.
    In the US is not longer happening.
    Nobody complained when Obama was doing it.
    The “Temporary” Separation applied only to the people that Crossed the Border illegally, and not to the people that presented themselves at the ports of entry.
    Don’t you want to know if the Parents and children are Legit? What if some of this children were kidnapped, and the real parents are in Agony?
    Also there’s no need to Cross the Border Illegally, and if they do, what are they Hiding? They can present themselves at any Port of Entry located at the Border and ask for Asylum.
    I don’t like to see children suffering either.

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    They might be able to get away with some of it, since it's tied to getting welfare benefits, not an out and out mandate.

    "Starting at the age of 1, “ghetto children” must be separated from their families for at least 25 hours a week, not including nap time, for mandatory instruction in “Danish values,” including the traditions of Christmas and Easter, and Danish language. Noncompliance could result in a stoppage of welfare payments. Other Danish citizens are free to choose whether to enroll children in preschool up to the age of six."

    What if some of the families in these designated "ghetto" areas are of European descent? Does it apply to them too?

    Well, I guess some things went too far even for these Parliamentarians.

    "
    Some proposals have been rejected as too radical, like one from the far-right Danish People’s Party that would confine “ghetto children” to their homes after 8 p.m. (Challenged on how this would be enforced, Martin Henriksen, the chairman of Parliament’s integration committee, suggested in earnest that young people in these areas could be fitted with electronic ankle bracelets.)"

    I'm not so much shocked at the proposals as that it's taking place in a Scandinavian country. I just didn't expect it.

    Honestly, if it is getting this bad in these countries, these people should just go back to their country of origin. The past might be prelude to the future.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I agree with Salento. This comment is indeed totally uncalled for. What is happening to you, Bicicleur? This has nothing to do with Italy or with any country not wanting any more immigrants from third world countries.
    As for Lega Nord, if you think I ever voted for them, or ever supported their racist comments, you haven't been paying attention.
    This thread is about one law, reported on by the New York Times, not me. Let's keep to the topic.
    I don't care what country passed such a law. If it is as reported I'm totally against it. You can't take people's children from them against their will for "acculturation" courses. It smacks of the old American practice of taking American Indian children from their parents and towns and sending them to boarding schools where they could only speak English and couldn't practice any of their native culture. That was horrible and disgusting too.
    Did you read the paper?
    There is no such a law.
    It is a law proposal, and the paper only highlights certain aspects of the proposal.
    The rest of the paper are comments from several people of the street.
    I simply question the journalistic seriousness, New York Times or not.
    I don't think it helps anybody outside Denmark in understanding the whole discussion in Denmark.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Did you read the paper?
    There is no such a law.
    It is a law proposal, and the paper only highlights certain aspects of the proposal.
    The rest of the paper are comments from several people of the street.
    I simply question the journalistic seriousness, New York Times or not.
    I don't think it helps anybody outside Denmark in understanding the whole discussion in Denmark.
    I did, Bicicleur.

    This is what I saw:

    "That tough approach is embodied in the “ghetto package.” Of 22 proposals presented by the government in early March, most have been agreed upon by a parliamentary majority, and more will be subject to a vote in the fall."

    If they are agreed upon by a parliamentary majority, are they not law?

    They do list some that are proposed but not voted upon, like the following:

    " One measure under consideration would allow courts to double the punishment for certain crimes if they are committed in one of the 25 neighborhoods classified as ghettos, based on residents’ income, employment status, education levels, number of criminal convictions and “non-Western background.” Another would impose a four-year prison sentence on immigrant parents who force their children to make extended visits to their country of origin — described here as “re-education trips” —in that way damaging their “schooling, language and well-being.” Another would allow local authorities to increase their monitoring and surveillance of “ghetto” families.Some proposals have been rejected as too radical, like one from the far-right Danish People’s Party that would confine “ghetto children” to their homes after 8 p.m. (Challenged on how this would be enforced, Martin Henriksen, the chairman of Parliament’s integration committee, suggested in earnest that young people in these areas could be fitted with electronic ankle bracelets.)"

    I'm certainly aware that newspapers exaggerate. That's why in my first post I asked if it is true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    Honestly, if it is getting this bad in these countries, these people should just go back to their country of origin. The past might be prelude to the future.

    [/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]
    what do you mean ?
    is this your conclusion upon reading an article in the New York Times ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I did, Bicicleur.
    This is what I saw:
    "That tough approach is embodied in the “ghetto package.” Of 22 proposals presented by the government in early March, most have been agreed upon by a parliamentary majority, and more will be subject to a vote in the fall."
    If they are agreed upon by a parliamentary majority, are they not law?
    They do list some that are proposed but not voted upon, like the following:
    " One measure under consideration would allow courts to double the punishment for certain crimes if they are committed in one of the 25 neighborhoods classified as ghettos, based on residents’ income, employment status, education levels, number of criminal convictions and “non-Western background.” Another would impose a four-year prison sentence on immigrant parents who force their children to make extended visits to their country of origin — described here as “re-education trips” —in that way damaging their “schooling, language and well-being.” Another would allow local authorities to increase their monitoring and surveillance of “ghetto” families.Some proposals have been rejected as too radical, like one from the far-right Danish People’s Party that would confine “ghetto children” to their homes after 8 p.m. (Challenged on how this would be enforced, Martin Henriksen, the chairman of Parliament’s integration committee, suggested in earnest that young people in these areas could be fitted with electronic ankle bracelets.)"
    I'm certainly aware that newspapers exaggerate. That's why in my first post I asked if it is true.
    I don't think " One measure under consideration" is a law.
    Why highlight this one and not explain the proposals that have been agreed upon?
    And I think 'seperation from the family' is an interpretation.
    In every country, going to school is compulsory.
    This also can be considered 'seperation from the family'.
    Salento is already comparing this to the illegal immigrant children who don't get to see their parents for weeks and months.
    For Christs sake!

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    it is true that in many European countries, certain people were dreaming of an ideal 'multicultural' society
    that was very naïve, and these people didn't tolerate any criticism
    also in Scandinavia

    they can't deny the failure of the 'multicultural' society any more
    'multiculturalism' meant people didn't have to adapt to the rules of the host
    it meant living on welfare and not acquiring the necesary skills to enter the job market of the host country
    it often meant not even understand the language of the host country

    now is a wake-up call, much to late
    and nobody knows how to correct this situation which needs correction
    just asking the opinion of some random people in the street won't bring the proper recipe

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I don't think " One measure under consideration" is a law.
    Why highlight this one and not explain the proposals that have been agreed upon?
    And I think 'seperation from the family' is an interpretation.
    In every country, going to school is compulsory.
    This also can be considered 'seperation from the family'.
    Salento is already comparing this to the illegal immigrant children who don't get to see their parents for weeks and months.
    For Christs sake!
    Honestly, I don't see where you get this interpretation.

    I listed the ones labeled proposals, which I had never discussed anyway. Since the one for "mandatory" schooling for "ghetto" children before primary school isn't one of them I therefore assumed that's one of the "majority" of 22 proposals which was indeed approved by the Parliament. I'd be very happy to hear it hasn't been passed.

    I never implied they're taking the children away permanently. I still think it would be a terrible idea to force Muslim families, if they want to eat, to send infants to a school where they'll be taught "Danish" values, including the importance of Christmas and Easter. It just shows total dis-respect for the rights of the parents. If pre-school is so great, it should be mandated for all Danish children. Otherwise, these kinds of programs should be voluntary.

    You can't "force" integration, Bicicleur. Our American Indians are proof of that. You'll just force them to go the other way and to hate their host country even more. Surely you see that?

    It's very worrisome, as well, that these kinds of measures, curfews at 8PM, electronic bracelets etc. are even being discussed in a European democracy. I'm beyond surprised you don't see that.

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    This is ridiculous. Not just highly controversial in a liberal democracy (hell, in any minimally ethical society), but also ultimately useless. Do you know the best way to acculturate and assimilate people? Simply find a way to stop ghettos from happening. The kids will spend their hours in "acculturation programs" and go back to their everyday life in communities where they form everyday connections only with other people of foreign descent.

    People don't get assimilated because "they must" (that, I can already predict, will create resentment in at least a minority of people already susceptible to radicalizing), they get assimilated because... well, just because it happens in 2 or 3 generations when a minority (they're still a minority, and a poorer and less prestigious minority at that, right?) lives amidst a majority of people who have a different way of life, different customs, beliefs and thoughts.

    When the children of immigrant background have 7 out of 10 friends and classmates of native background, and not 1 or 2 out of 10. When the immigrants have as neighbors people who have been living in the country since centuries earlier. When the main customers, members of the club, owners of the bars and restaurants, business dealers, everything and everyone around them are not immigrants themselves. When the immigrants really feel like they're the 10% in a much wider country, not the 70% or 80% in their small local "world". Otherwise don't even expect that people will just think "hey, we immigrated years ago, let's forsake our roots and become totally acculturated out of gratitude".

    This kind of draconian measure is like a hound roaring aggressively in front of the house while there is a completely safe and accessible entry into it in the backyard. Immigrants do not assimilate because, especially with the modern technology (internet, TV etc.), they are more than ever shut down from having to get used to an everyday coexistence with the native culture and society of the receiving nation. Unless natives and immigrants are side by side, closely together, it won't happen.

    Sorry if that bothers some peole who wouldn't like their "pristine" communities to be tainted by the foreign influences of those immigrants, but there's only one way people are totally integrated into a dominant society: when this majority makes and active effort to to dilute and then absorb the "different" minority.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I don't think " One measure under consideration" is a law.
    Why highlight this one and not explain the proposals that have been agreed upon?
    And I think 'seperation from the family' is an interpretation.
    In every country, going to school is compulsory.
    This also can be considered 'seperation from the family'.
    Salento is already comparing this to the illegal immigrant children who don't get to see their parents for weeks and months.
    For Christs sake!
    Yes kids are separated from their families when they go to school (by this I mean k-12), but at the same time they learn the essentials needed to thrive in society aka learning to read, write, math skills, etc. It's a system that society accepts and that children benefit from. You can't compare this to those Danish minority kids being taught how wrong their culture is and how they must reject it. It's damaging to them.

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    Totally agree with the Danes... don’t think these measures were meant to encourage continued migration of those who have no interest in assimilating into Western culture!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I don't think " One measure under consideration" is a law.
    Why highlight this one and not explain the proposals that have been agreed upon?
    And I think 'seperation from the family' is an interpretation.
    In every country, going to school is compulsory.
    This also can be considered 'seperation from the family'.
    Salento is already comparing this to the illegal immigrant children who don't get to see their parents for weeks and months.
    For Christs sake!
    If something is made compulsory only to people from a certain place/community or targeted to be enforced on people mostly of certain ethnic backgrounds, without any direct teleological relationship between the two things, then it is legal discrimination, not just a collective duty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    If something is made compulsory only to people from a certain place/community or targeted to be enforced on people mostly of certain ethnic backgrounds, without any direct teleological relationship between the two things, then it is legal discrimination, not just a collective duty.
    I'm sure the laws won't specify any specific religion or ethnicity.
    But the problem is those who don't do any effort to integrate in the home country and it is those who will be targeted.
    They cling together in 'ghettos' where they speak their home languages and share their own values and morals which are sometimes totaly incompattable with the modern western values. They try to shield their children from any outside influence.
    If a native does not comply with the basic values of the country and e.g. is discriminating or racist or hatefull, he'll be sanctioned too.
    And keep in mind, we are not talking about all immigrants here, only the minority that refuses to integrate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Yes kids are separated from their families when they go to school (by this I mean k-12), but at the same time they learn the essentials needed to thrive in society aka learning to read, write, math skills, etc. It's a system that society accepts and that children benefit from. You can't compare this to those Danish minority kids being taught how wrong their culture is and how they must reject it. It's damaging to them.
    they are not taught that their own culture is wrong
    they are taught to accept the values and the country of their host country, which are being rejected by their parents
    they are trying to broaden the view of the children

    that's at least what I think, but the paper tries to incriminate all these intentions

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Honestly, I don't see where you get this interpretation.
    I listed the ones labeled proposals, which I had never discussed anyway. Since the one for "mandatory" schooling for "ghetto" children before primary school isn't one of them I therefore assumed that's one of the "majority" of 22 proposals which was indeed approved by the Parliament. I'd be very happy to hear it hasn't been passed.
    I never implied they're taking the children away permanently. I still think it would be a terrible idea to force Muslim families, if they want to eat, to send infants to a school where they'll be taught "Danish" values, including the importance of Christmas and Easter. It just shows total dis-respect for the rights of the parents. If pre-school is so great, it should be mandated for all Danish children. Otherwise, these kinds of programs should be voluntary.
    You can't "force" integration, Bicicleur. Our American Indians are proof of that. You'll just force them to go the other way and to hate their host country even more. Surely you see that?
    It's very worrisome, as well, that these kinds of measures, curfews at 8PM, electronic bracelets etc. are even being discussed in a European democracy. I'm beyond surprised you don't see that.
    no, you never said the children were taken away, but that is how it was phrased in the article
    it is very biased, and others like Salento are immediately asuming it is like that
    the article from the New York Times is very suggestive and biased, like other articles about Europe, like I pointed out in comment 2
    it is even clear from the article that curfews and electronic bracelets are proposals from an extreme-right party and are not even considerated
    and yes, look at my comment n° 12
    I agree there is no ready solution at hand, you can't force integration
    In America, you put the Natives who don't integrate in a reserve, which is not an option in Denmark
    those to blaim are those 'idealists' who let these people and their extended families in at the first place, they were naïve and fundamentalist 'idealists', rejecting every criticism as 'racism'
    that is partly why you were asuming everything was going so well in Scandinavia
    mayby some of these naïve idealists switched carreer and became correspondents for the New York Times

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    It is ridiculous to force children to learn about religious holidays like Christmas and Easter, no matter whether they are immigrants or locals. Freedom of religion means that the state has no right to impose religious values through compulsory education.

    On the other hand, I don't see what is the problem with having free language lessons for little children. I also don't think it's a problem for immigrant toddlers to go to free nursery school if it can facilitate their adaptation. Most (non-immigrant) parents nowadays pay to leave their children in nursery schools while they go to work. It's especially true in Scandinavia where a high proportion of women work and women are often reluctant to give up their career because they have children. With that in mind, I completely understand the Danish government's decision to offer ghetto immigrants to place their children in nursery schools 5 hours per day on week days. That is what most Danish people do with their own children from 1 year old.
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    Starting at the age of 1, “ghetto children” must be separated from their families for at least 25 hours a week, not including nap time, for mandatory instruction in “Danish values,” including the traditions of Christmas and Easter, and Danish language. Noncompliance could result in a stoppage of welfare payments. Other Danish citizens are free to choose whether to enroll children in preschool up to the age of six.

    I don't know, but I don't think they spend 2 weeks teaching about Christmas and Easter.
    It suffices to explain them what Christmas and Easter tradition means for the average Danish people.
    In fifteen minutes, this can be done.

    Again, this whole article seems very suggestive to me, just like the wording “ghetto children” must be separated from their families.

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    Good to see something productive happening in Europe regarding immigration issues.

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    Freedom of religion is a principle that supports the freedom of an individual or community, in public or private, to manifest religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship, and observance without government influence or intervention. It also includes the freedom to change one's religion or belief.[1]
    Freedom of religion is considered by many people and most of the nations to be a fundamental human right.[2][3] In a country with a state religion, freedom of religion is generally considered to mean that the government permits religious practices of other sects besides the state religion, and does not persecute believers in other faiths. Freedom of belief is different. It allows the right to believe what a person, group or religion wishes, but it does not necessarily allow the right to practice the religion or belief openly and outwardly in a public manner.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion

    https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/...f-and-religion

    https://migrationdataportal.org/them...ion#definition


    Definition

    There is no consensus on a single definition for integration. Definitions share commonalities, but remain highly context or country specific. Nevertheless, migrant integration may be broadly defined as:
    The process by which migrants become accepted into society, both as individuals and as groups….[Integration] refers to a two-way process of adaptation by migrants and host societies…[and implies] consideration of the rights and obligations of migrants and host societies, of access to different kinds of services and the labour market, and of identification and respect for a core set of values that bind migrants and host communities in a common purpose (IOM, 2011).

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